Sony XBR-X940D CalMAN Calibration Discussion - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony XBR-X940D CalMAN Calibration Discussion

Discussion of calibration procedures/results for Sony XBR-X940D UHD/HDR FALD LED Display

I am currently using CalMAN 2016, but I am not sure which version (Home Express, Control or Enthusiast). I have emailed SpectraCal Support for clarification.

As a starting point, here are the CalMAN results from my last calibration (October 11).

Color Temp:



Luminance (expressed in foot-lamberts):



Two-point grayscale:



Multipoint gamma and grayscale (gamma target 2.4):



Color Management System:




Comments on these results would be welcome.

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post #2 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Brief Description of Calibration Procedures

General comments:

I am currently only calibrating for 1080p non-UHD/HDR source material (BT709). I have not made a decision WRT which UHD/HDR disk player I will purchase (waiting for impending announcements by Oppo and SONY before committing). This means that my current access to UHD material is primarily streaming (Amazon Prime and Netflix) using the Sony native apps. Streaming HDR content is limited at this time. I do not use a HTPC, so using a computer for calibration test patterns is not an option.

I use the Spears&Munsil ver 2 Blu-ray for all of my calibration test patterns, because of the quality of the material and the ease of disk navigation.

General calibration preparations:

- Completely dark room, of course
- Bias lighting turned off
- All enhancement settings off
- Light sensor off
- Local dimming off
- Color BT709 (or Auto)
- Reality creation off
- Motion controls off
- HDMI Signal format Standard (for non-UHD/HDR)

Summary of test screens:



CalMAN setup:

Software Version:



Target Options (gamma power 2.4)"



Meter Settings:





App preferences:






Calibration Procedure:

1. Contrast - set using S&M contrast test screen.

2. Brightness - really a backlight level control. Adjust by measuring Luminance in CalMAN, and set to the desired luminance level.

3. Black Level - set using S&M brightness test screen.

4. Color & Tint - The S&M test screen will not work properly on this display. I use an alternate procedure: a) Measure Luminance using a 75% White test pattern. b) Multiply the results by .21. c) Display the 75% Red screen and adjust color so it measures at the .21 result. Tint is set using the S&M Tint test screen.

5. Sharpness - set using S&M sharpness test screen.

6. Color Temp - on the CalMAN Mode Settings screen, display a 60% White test pattern and observe the "CCT Avg" score. Select the display color temp that is closest to 6500K.

7. Luminance - on the CalMAN Dynamic Range screen, display a 100% White test pattern and read the "Y Max" score (shown in foot-lamberts in the previous post, but adjustable in the CalMAN Settings).

8. White balance - on the CalMAN 2-point Grayscale screen, alternately display the 30% White and the 80% White test patterns. While displaying the 30% screen, go to the display's Advanced Color Temperature settings and adjust the three bias settings until the three left bars are as close to the same height as possible. The DeltaE 2000 should be as low as possible. Then display the 80% White screen and adjust the three gain settings until the three right bars are as close to the same height as possible. Again, the DeltaE 2000 should be as low as possible. Repeat the 30% and 80% adjustments until both produce optimized results (they affect each other).

9. Gamma tracking - on the CalMAN Multipoint Grayscale and Gamma screen, follow the instructions to produce the gamma tracking measurement.

10. RGB Balance - on the CalMAN Adjust CMS, follow the instructions to produce the RGB balance measurements.

11. Go back and review each step a second time to make sure one adjustment did not affect the results of another.

12. Save your results. Log any settings changes made on the Display for reference.

Post-Calibration

- Return display settings to preferred setting (e.g. turn auto-dimming back on). Best PQ results are obtained by minimizing the number of PQ enhancement settings that are turned on (see my Sig for recommended settings).

- Using the settings log you created above, make sure that all the inputs on the display have the same settings. Settings are stored for each HDMI input, as well as for the native TV apps. Nothing can be more confusing than if the PQ changes when you select a different input!

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post #3 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Useful Calibration Links

This post will show various links posted by thread participants supporting various display and calibration topics.

Display type is LED Blue Green

HDR Test Patterns:

http://http://www.avsforum.com/forum...-patterns.html

Gamma 2.4 or BT.1886?

http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...rs/BT.1886.pdf

APL, and set Local Dimming On or Off?

http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...20Patterns.pdf

Local Dimming discussion.

Bt.1886 and local dimming

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post #4 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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post #5 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 09:26 AM
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Ok, so I confirmed over on the SpectraCal forums that it is the "Blue Green" display type.

I did a quick SDR 2-point and ended up with a -1 G-Gain and everything else default for a dE of <2 on 30/80 on this July 2016 panel!

I'm researching the crap out of HDR calibration now and wondering if the "HDR material looks dark" comments everywhere are actually because of the different gamma used for HDR mastering ... perhaps a 10-point in HDR mode is more needed than we realize, as well as saving that to Expert 2 and reserving Expert 1 for SDR color/gamma (which would look VERY off using the HDR gamma from what I've read.)

I did a quick 10-point SDR and got it down to a 1.4 dE but started rushing and ended up pushing it back up above 2.0 (with some bad peaks), so I blew it all away. Really need to go slow and take my time with that.

My set lives at the mrs' house, and I'm back at my place for a couple days, so all I can do until the weekend is research and plan

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post #6 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 10:31 AM
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I'm getting a huge dip at 70% on my RGB Balance when I'm doing my pre-cal measurements -



Just like this guy with his DX750 ... not sure what is up with that, I've got questions out in numerous threads on a couple boards ... pushing "point 7" in the 10-point to all max had no effect, so I'm stumped and at a pretty early road block with my HDR cal until I get some answers ...

If anyone has any ideas/info that would be greatly appreciated.
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post #7 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post
I'm getting a huge dip at 70% on my RGB Balance when I'm doing my pre-cal measurements -

Just like this guy with his DX750 ... not sure what is up with that, I've got questions out in numerous threads on a couple boards ... pushing "point 7" in the 10-point to all max had no effect, so I'm stumped and at a pretty early road block with my HDR cal until I get some answers ...

If anyone has any ideas/info that would be greatly appreciated.
That is definitely peculiar.

As a starting point, I would like to know the differences between our software versions (as soon as I figure out the version I have). So far, I notice that your display options have more choices. Is the a software feature, or perhaps a feature of the meter you are using, which I am pretty sure is of a higher quality than mine. And I don't have a "Pre-Calibration View". What is the purpose of this screen, and why would you want to measure anything before you calibrate? To record a starting point?

We won't be of much help to each other until we standardize our procedures (as much as is possible).
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post #8 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post

I did a quick 10-point SDR and got it down to a 1.4 dE but started rushing and ended up pushing it back up above 2.0 (with some bad peaks), so I blew it all away. Really need to go slow and take my time with that.
I have never experimented with the 10-point adjustments. My thoughts have been that my 2-point results are "good enough", so why complicate things. What do you think about my 2-point results?

And because I don't have a UHD/HDR player yet, I am deferring HDR calibration until later.
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post #9 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
General calibration preparations:

- Completely dark room, of course
- Bias lighting turned off
I personally prefer to calibrate in my normal ambient light and bias lighting so subjective things like black levels (can you see these black bars?) are setup for what I'm actually going to see while viewing.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
- Local dimming off
I can't find the link right now (I've read so much today), but I saw a post regarding the 940D somewhere where Tyler from SpectraCal said to calibrate with LD on ... it may have been with regard to HDR, but I think it follows the same logic as above - to calibrate what you're actually going to be seeing when you're using the set. I'll continue trying to find it and will update this if/when I find it.

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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Target Options (gamma power 2.4)"
Your daily brain-washing for the day - http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...rs/BT.1886.pdf ... come to the dark BT.1886 side... we have cookies!
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post #10 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 10:55 AM
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Is the a software feature, or perhaps a feature of the meter you are using, which I am pretty sure is of a higher quality than mine.
Hrrrmmm! I wonder! I don't see those same options when running it with the simulated meter at home right now, so yeah, maybe it has to do with the C6-HDR

Hopefully we attract some knowledgeable folks to this thread who can answer these questions of ours!

@WiFi-Spy *poke* *poke* *poke*

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And I don't have a "Pre-Calibration View". What is the purpose of this screen, and why would you want to measure anything before you calibrate? To record a starting point?
That would be my guess, yes, and so you can compare pre/post easily. I just skimmed through some of my workflows, yeah, Home Basic and Home Advanced don't have that screen. Home Enthusiast, HDR10, and if I recall my monitor workflows do though.

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We won't be of much help to each other until we standardize our procedures (as much as is possible).
100% agreed. Ver 5.7.0.2359 on loading screen, title bar reads "CalMAN 2016 CalMAN Enthusiast for Home Video". C6-HDR meter.
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post #11 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 10:58 AM
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I have never experimented with the 10-point adjustments. My thoughts have been that my 2-point results are "good enough", so why complicate things. What do you think about my 2-point results?
2-point is better than stock, for sure ... but you see how your RGB Balance drifts up from about 10-70 and separates from about 10-30? You can pat all that down nice, flat and even with a 10-point which despite already having a dE average of < 3, is said to have a remarkable difference on PQ and the "3D effect" of 2D material.

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post #12 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 11:15 AM
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Brief Description of Calibration Procedures
Oh look, you do have the "LED Blue Green" there ... that's the one we should be using on this set apparently (Source 1 - Source 2)
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Oh look, you do have the "LED Blue Green" there ... that's the one we should be using on this set apparently (Source 1 - Source 2)
OK, I'll have to try that next time. And thanks for the link to the SpectraCal forum discussion. Obviously, you have been having quite a few discussions already.

Several things you should know about me: first of all, I am retired, and have plenty of time on my hands for all sorts of audio/video activities. So, if something is in question, I can usually test it out almost immediately. Second, I am an OCD type, constantly trying to find the best way to do things, but always supported by facts and data.

HST, I just took a few quick readings using CalMAN in a "not dark" room. The room is light-controlled, but since it is the middle of the day, not as dark as nighttime. And I left the bias lighting on. When I took the readings, there was very little difference in the readings. Color temp was essentially the same, Luminance was 1FL lower, and the 2-point grayscale looks unchanged. My point is, you can make statements about the lighting conditions when you calibrate, but unless you actually compare the results, you don't really know if the claims are valid. Based on my tests, it seems to make little difference whether the room is dark or not, which actually makes things a lot easier.

I also ran another test, following up on a discussion point from yesterday. I selected "Expert 2" and loaded the same gain and bias settings that I have been using for "Expert 1". The result? Expert 2 now measures exactly the same as Expert 1. IOW, these are just convenient memory locations for saving different white balance settings, which may be very convenient for HDR calibrations.
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post #14 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 12:42 PM
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OK, I'll have to try that next time. And thanks for the link to the SpectraCal forum discussion. Obviously, you have been having quite a few discussions already.
Mainly just jumped on whatever I could find while anxiously waiting for this thread to start

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Several things you should know about me: first of all, I am retired, and have plenty of time on my hands for all sorts of audio/video activities. So, if something is in question, I can usually test it out almost immediately. Second, I am an OCD type, constantly trying to find the best way to do things, but always supported by facts and data.
Same here, sans retirement, but I work from home/mrs' so I can take liberties to play with the set a bit through the day while I'm there

My biggest issue is as I mentioned, the set being at the mrs' place, so I'll be vicariously enjoying your cal time while I'm away from it

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HST, I just took a few quick readings using CalMAN in a "not dark" room. The room is light-controlled, but since it is the middle of the day, not as dark as nighttime. And I left the bias lighting on. When I took the readings, there was very little difference in the readings. Color temp was essentially the same, Luminance was 1FL lower, and the 2-point grayscale looks unchanged. My point is, you can make statements about the lighting conditions when you calibrate, but unless you actually compare the results, you don't really know if the claims are valid. Based on my tests, it seems to make little difference whether the room is dark or not, which actually makes things a lot easier.
Yeah, with the meter having surface contact it shouldn't change any readings, but for the contrast and brightness (specifically black crush, white clipping, and your ability to see them from your seating area) the ambient light makes a huge difference.

On those two specifically I used walk up to the set - "Hrm, yeah, I can see that black bar", but I've since realized that doesn't help me from my seating location, so I do those adjustments from there with my typical viewing conditions (including being up at 3 AM to calibrate "ISF Night" on my old VT30, leading the mrs' to believe me to be insane )

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I also ran another test, following up on a discussion point from yesterday. I selected "Expert 2" and loaded the same gain and bias settings that I have been using for "Expert 1". The result? Expert 2 now measures exactly the same as Expert 1. IOW, these are just convenient memory locations for saving different white balance settings, which may be very convenient for HDR calibrations.
That is VERY good to know. Shame there are only the two though ... I wish that didn't track across modes

I'd ideally like to have -
  1. Day 1 - SDR/709
  2. Day 2 - HDR/2020
  3. Night 1 - SDR/709
  4. Night 2 - HDR/2020

I've also heard murmurs of people doing SDR/2020 calibration settings, but as I do not have and can not think of any content for that I won't worry about it.

I think my plan right now is -
  1. Cinema Home = Day
  2. Cinema Pro = Night
  3. Expert 1 = balance between Day and Night settings (if there are any differences in 2-point/10-point between the two), applied to both
  4. Expert 2 = HDR 2/10 settings, applied only to the HDR Video mode

Last edited by Polaris75; 11-03-2016 at 12:52 PM.
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post #15 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Polaris75 View Post

I think my plan right now is -
  1. Cinema Home = Day
  2. Cinema Pro = Night
  3. Expert 1 = balance between Day and Night settings (if there are any differences in 2-point/10-point between the two), applied to both
  4. Expert 2 = HDR 2/10 settings, applied only to the HDR Video mode
I think you are mixing picture mode and color temperature settings. Here is what I think you need:

Standard pic mode with Expert1 color temp for HDR daytime
Custom pic mode with Expert1 color temp for HDR night
Cinema Pro pic mode with Expert2 color temp for non-HDR daytime
Cinema Home pic mode with Expert2 color temp for non-HDR night

Where Expert1 contains the rec2020 settings,
and Expert2 contains the rec709 settings.

Make sense?
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post #16 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think you are mixing picture mode and color temperature settings. Here is what I think you need:

Standard pic mode with Expert1 color temp for HDR daytime
Custom pic mode with Expert1 color temp for HDR night
Cinema Pro pic mode with Expert2 color temp for non-HDR daytime
Cinema Home pic mode with Expert2 color temp for non-HDR night

Where Expert1 contains the rec2020 settings,
and Expert2 contains the rec709 settings.

Make sense?
Yep, the problem is the picture mode (so, day/night settings in my case - specially contrast and brightness) tend to have an impact on your 2 and 10-point tracking So an extra couple "Expert" slots would be useful

Edit: Oh, also, Standard and Custom can't be applied to HDR - when the set gets an HDR signal it switches to "HDR Video" mode, and there is only one, and it can't be switched out of (yet, here's hoping Sony pushes an update that lets us run a "Game" mode on top of it to bring down the input lag) ... so that one has to be balanced between day and night ... my ideal day settings would be blindingly bright in pitch black viewing
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I am trying to understand the 10-point adjustment. What are the 10 points? I see what looks like 10 points in the Multipoint Grayscale and Gamma measurement screen. Do those coincide with 0% to 100% in ten steps? And when I adjust the RGB offsets, how do I observe the effect the changes have made? Re-run the Multipoint Grayscale and Gamma measurements? That seems time-consuming for every little tweak.

Am I missing something?
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Quote:
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Yep, the problem is the picture mode (so, day/night settings in my case - specially contrast and brightness) tend to have an impact on your 2 and 10-point tracking So an extra couple "Expert" slots would be useful

Edit: Oh, also, Standard and Custom can't be applied to HDR - when the set gets an HDR signal it switches to "HDR Video" mode, and there is only one, and it can't be switched out of (yet, here's hoping Sony pushes an update that lets us run a "Game" mode on top of it to bring down the input lag) ... so that one has to be balanced between day and night ... my ideal day settings would be blindingly bright in pitch black viewing
Good points. But only affecting you, because I don't need separate settings for day and night. I would simply have the Expert2 rec2020 color temp setting in the HDR picture mode, and the Expert1 rec709 color temp setting in my Custom picture mode.
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post #19 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 01:39 PM
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Good points. But only affecting you, because I don't need separate settings for day and night. I would simply have the Expert2 rec2020 color temp setting in the HDR picture mode, and the Expert1 rec709 color temp setting in my Custom picture mode.
Yes, very true, if one isn't setting up day/night modes it works quite well that way! The ambient light changes so much in my living room that I like having both. Plus on older sets a "night" mode with overall lower settings (backlight, etc.) typically enables more depth and detail in blacks. That may not be the case with this bad boy though, so I guess I should stop over-thinking that part until I'm actually sitting in front of it seeing differences between day and night mode gray tracking
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I am trying to understand the 10-point adjustment. What are the 10 points? I see what looks like 10 points in the Multipoint Grayscale and Gamma measurement screen. Do those coincide with 0% to 100% in ten steps? And when I adjust the RGB offsets, how do I observe the effect the changes have made? Re-run the Multipoint Grayscale and Gamma measurements? That seems time-consuming for every little tweak.

Am I missing something?
Oh it's VERY time consuming, yes ... and the best part? Changes to "point 2" will impact "point 1" and "point 3"

You are correct though! 1-10 on the set will correspond to 10% - 100% on your readings (0% is as black as the set can get, so nothing to adjust there). You don't need to do a *full* re-read for every adjustment, typically just what you've changed, one down, and one up are sufficient.
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post #21 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh it's VERY time consuming, yes ... and the best part? Changes to "point 2" will impact "point 1" and "point 3"

You are correct though! 1-10 on the set will correspond to 10% - 100% on your readings (0% is as black as the set can get, so nothing to adjust there). You don't need to do a *full* re-read for every adjustment, typically just what you've changed, one down, and one up are sufficient.
OK, sounds like it may be worth a try. Whether I will be able to see a difference is another thing. The set looks so damn good right now I am having a hard time imagining anything better. Happy problem.

Whew, time for a nap...
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post #22 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 02:02 PM
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The set looks so damn good right now I am having a hard time imagining anything better. Happy problem.
Amen to that!

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Whew, time for a nap...
Enjoy!
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post #23 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 02:34 PM
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Just a heads up, those screen shots over in the owner's thread are pretty cluttering, so as we've moved here I'm going to delete my posts pertaining to calibration
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post #24 of 220 Old 11-03-2016, 08:12 PM
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I just dropped $128.11 CAD on the service manual

Hopefully it contains some keys to better calibration, at least on the HDR front!
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post #25 of 220 Old 11-04-2016, 12:42 AM
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Cool

I was using LED RGB for calibration seem like I have to go back and do LED BG again.
**Update**
I got home and redo my calibration with Local Dimming on, I tested the color different between Local dimming ON and OFF and there's a significant color changes. If you do decided to calibrate your TV with local dimming on make sure you remeasure your screen with all menu off. The menu throw off the reading brightness. so best do your sweep then with the menu off read it again. I did notice a much better performance and contrast when calibrate your TV while LD on. see attachment for my test results.

on the other note I want to make all my gamma and everything perfect, but my wife was getting pissed, because I was hogging the TV and I was spending 3hr+ on it
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Last edited by kanti123; 11-04-2016 at 06:42 AM.
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post #26 of 220 Old 11-04-2016, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
I was using LED RGB for calibration seem like I have to go back and do LED BG again.
**Update**
I got home and redo my calibration with Local Dimming on, I tested the color different between Local dimming ON and OFF and there's a significant color changes. If you do decided to calibrate your TV with local dimming on make sure you remeasure your screen with all menu off. The menu throw off the reading brightness. so best do your sweep then with the menu off read it again. I did notice a much better performance and contrast when calibrate your TV while LD on. see attachment for my test results.

on the other note I want to make all my gamma and everything perfect, but my wife was getting pissed, because I was hogging the TV and I was spending 3hr+ on it
I am always curious how two two people can come up with such different results. I saw very little difference between Dimming off and Dimming on. Even with the test pattern displayed, toggling the Dimming setting off and on produces no visible change in the image. If you think about it, the Dimming algorithm should not be making the area of the screen showing the White test pattern dimmer. That area's brightness should be constant.

Did you by chance make two changes at once? If you change to LED BG at the same time, we wouldn't know which change caused the significant difference. I'll check my findings again later today.
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post #27 of 220 Old 11-04-2016, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I am always curious how two two people can come up with such different results. I saw very little difference between Dimming off and Dimming on. Even with the test pattern displayed, toggling the Dimming setting off and on produces no visible change in the image. If you think about it, the Dimming algorithm should not be making the area of the screen showing the White test pattern dimmer. That area's brightness should be constant.

Did you by chance make two changes at once? If you change to LED BG at the same time, we wouldn't know which change caused the significant difference. I'll check my findings again later today.
Sorry no I did not try LED BG vs LED RGB. as for Local dimming on and off, I think it's because my set have some clouding specially on the lower end of IRE. the menu screen is brighter and also the menu square is close to the Meter since I put it in the middle of the screen. I'll have to do some more testing.
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post #28 of 220 Old 11-04-2016, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
Sorry no I did not try LED BG vs LED RGB. as for Local dimming on and off, I think it's because my set have some clouding specially on the lower end of IRE. the menu screen is brighter and also the menu square is close to the Meter since I put it in the middle of the screen. I'll have to do some more testing.
What menu square are you referring to?
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post #29 of 220 Old 11-04-2016, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
What menu square are you referring to?
The square adjustment menu on the lower right corner when you adjust Black Level, Contrast, etc..
aslo I have reset my tv setting and run the test with LD on/off and with Menu on the screen. with the menu on the screen your RGB luminance go lower. this is what i'm talking about, also you're right about the differences between LD on/off is very small.

**Update**
After I did the calibration, turning on LD has significant changes to color still, seem like the TV turn up the Luminance RGB when LD is on.
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Last edited by kanti123; 11-04-2016 at 04:58 PM.
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post #30 of 220 Old 11-04-2016, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanti123 View Post
The square adjustment menu on the lower right corner when you adjust Black Level, Contrast, etc..
aslo I have reset my tv setting and run the test with LD on/off and with Menu on the screen. with the menu on the screen your RGB luminance go lower. this is what i'm talking about, also you're right about the differences between LD on/off is very small.
Here are pics of the 100% White test pattern with the meter resting on the screen:






I measured Luminance in both cases, and the presence of the TV setting adjustment box does not alter the luminance at all. Are you using Spears&Munsil Test Patterns?
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