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post #1 of 37 Unread 02-05-2017, 01:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Gamma and 20-point IRE adjustment

I've read...a lot, over the past week or so. Curt Palme's ChromaPure and HCFR guides, the Basic Guide, the Certainly Not Complete guide, and a few other threads, and done a bit of Googling.

I can't find out what the 'adjustment luminance' and 'target luminance' are in my LG OLED55C6T's 20-point IRE white balance control. It appears to be a gamma adjustment? The target can only be set for 100 "IRE", but doesn't seem to do anything. Adjustment is available at all levels. It occurred to me the 'target' for levels below 100 might be about gamma, and indeed changing the set's gamma alters the targets for the lower levels even if 100 is left at the default 130.

So...am I aiming to hit the target levels in order to set gamma as selected? What units are they in? I think 130 nits comes out at around 37 fL, which is within the usual recommended range for an LCD, so is that it? Find a peak white I'm happy with, enter its value in nits as the target, and adjust aiming for the target at each "IRE" point?

I've gone through all the arguments about 2.5 vs 2.2 gamma, but haven't seen anything on BT.1886. This seems like it would suit a brighter room better? Should I go with that for daytime casual viewing, and 2.4 for cinema? Or BT.1886 across the board? Or would BT.1886 not do as good a job in daylight as I'm thinking?

Are there other adjustments that should be made for daylight? I have a giant window right next to my TV, unfortunately, and for casual viewing I'm not going to bother trying to light-control, particularly since the room is also open to the entire rest of the house.

My i1 arrives tomorrow, am I going to have any difficulty with it based on the screen being curved? All guides say to have it flat against the screen.

I've already had a quick run-through with my Spears & Munsil disc, my eyeballs, and brightness and contrast patterns and I already struggle to watch the factory-default TV in the other room.
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post #2 of 37 Unread 02-05-2017, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
I can't find out what the 'adjustment luminance' and 'target luminance' are in my LG OLED55C6T's 20-point IRE white balance control. It appears to be a gamma adjustment? The target can only be set for 100 "IRE", but doesn't seem to do anything. Adjustment is available at all levels. It occurred to me the 'target' for levels below 100 might be about gamma, and indeed changing the set's gamma alters the targets for the lower levels even if 100 is left at the default 130.
You can simply ignore the target luminance values displayed by the TV. Your calibration software (HCFR, ChromaPure, etc) will provide the proper target values based on 0 and 100 IRE readings.
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post #3 of 37 Unread 02-05-2017, 09:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Does it follow from that, then, that the gamma setting doesn't actually do anything, as I could simply use software to calculate, and then manually input, whatever gamma I wanted?
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post #4 of 37 Unread 02-05-2017, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Does it follow from that, then, that the gamma setting doesn't actually do anything, as I could simply use software to calculate, and then manually input, whatever gamma I wanted?
You should use the TV's gamma settings to get close to where you want, then use the 20 pt IRE controls to fine-tune it.
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post #5 of 37 Unread 02-05-2017, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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But I could, for example, set it to 2.4 with the TV's control and use the IRE points to target 2.35, or 2.5?

Is anyone able to answer my other questions?
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post #6 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 12:02 AM - Thread Starter
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i1 arrived, and I ran through the 20-point adjustment with BT.1886 set in both HCFR and my TV's white balance settings. From 15-20 IRE up, the minimum 'adjustment luminance' value still creates a Y value far, far higher than HCFR's 'target Y'. at 95 IRE I'm supposed to be targeting 102, I can only go as low as 109. At 65 IRE, it's 94-42.

Am I doing something wrong? Surely it can't be *that* far off the mark.

Seems like it's a fairly gentle curve from just above 2.2 at 100 IRE to just below 2.2 at 20 IRE, after which it drops away to 2.1 at 5 IRE. Although I'm not sure how BT.1886 should look on a graph.
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post #7 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Seems like it's a fairly gentle curve from just above 2.2 at 100 IRE to just below 2.2 at 20 IRE, after which it drops away to 2.1 at 5 IRE. Although I'm not sure how BT.1886 should look on a graph.
Scratch that, that was just the reference curve. Apparently the actual results don't populate the graph unless you measure with that graph visible, which seems a bit silly.

The actual graph starts around 2.1, hitting 2.2 around 5 IRE before crashing to the floor, reaching 1.1 at 50 IRE and then disappearing off the bottom of the graph.

Not particularly surprising given how inaccurate my Y values are, but a) why are my dE values all 0.2 or lower and b) how on earth is the unit incapable of reproducing even half-decent gamma?

The green tint the midrange had previously is gone, and my color temperature is a perfect 6500K until about 15 IRE, where it shifts up and then back down again by a barely-discernible amount. So that's a massive improvement, but these luminance values are just awful.
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post #8 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Scratch that, that was just the reference curve. Apparently the actual results don't populate the graph unless you measure with that graph visible, which seems a bit silly.
By its very nature, the BT.1886 curve can only be calculated after you have measure 100 IRE and 0 IRE.

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The actual graph starts around 2.1, hitting 2.2 around 5 IRE before crashing to the floor, reaching 1.1 at 50 IRE and then disappearing off the bottom of the graph.
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Not particularly surprising given how inaccurate my Y values are, but a) why are my dE values all 0.2 or lower
The default dE formula for greyscale only looks at the white balance and excludes the Y. You can change it to include Y (I always do that while adjusting the 10-pt controls).

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and b) how on earth is the unit incapable of reproducing even half-decent gamma?
The preset gammas are usually not that accurate but shouldn't be that bad. Did you measure it before making any adjustments? Did you do a complete sweep (i.e., measure from 0 to 100 IRE without making any adjustments in between the patterns?
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post #9 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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How do I include Y in dE in HCFR? I can't find that setting.

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The preset gammas are usually not that accurate but shouldn't be that bad.
It's not just the presets, the lowest possible Y value for 95-20 is way, way higher than the target. Out by as much as 50 cd/m2 at some points.

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Did you measure it before making any adjustments? Did you do a complete sweep (i.e., measure from 0 to 100 IRE without making any adjustments in between the patterns?
I did that to generate the gamma graph after setting everything up, but didn't sweep or measure before adjusting anything.

It was just as bad when I set the TV and HCFR to power law 2.2 gamma. Minimums for 95 down were far beyond the target.
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post #10 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
How do I include Y in dE in HCFR? I can't find that setting.
Menu Advanced -> Preferences -> Advanced -> Color Difference Formula.
Change to CIE2000, click Apply, then change Grey Scale dE handling to "Absolute Y w/gamma".

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It's not just the presets, the lowest possible Y value for 95-20 is way, way higher than the target. Out by as much as 50 cd/m2 at some points.
I did that to generate the gamma graph after setting everything up, but didn't sweep or measure before adjusting anything.
You have to measure at least the end points first (0 IRE and 100 IRE).
You can post the HCFR data file (.chc) here for troubleshooting.
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post #11 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah. I'm using the LG's internal patterns, which start at 5, and I've just been setting them by running from 100 down.

I set the 20-point IRE settings to their defaults, then ran a sweep (using 5 for both 0 and 5, since I don't have a 0) with HCFR and the TV set for 2.2 gamma. It starts at 1.6, slowly dropping before disappearing off the bottom of the graph at 40 IRE. Not sure if that means anything without being able to measure a 0, though...does that still apply for power law or only BT.1886?

I accidentally mailed my Spears and Munsil disc to the other side of the country last week. Hoping I'll have it back tomorrow. Thought I could at least use the internals to calculate greyscale and gamma while I was waiting.

I went in and set the color formula to CIE94, which seems to be recommended from what I've read, and the 'absolute Y w/o gamma' option is greyed out. Why isn't that available?

EDIT: The other thing is that to get 120cd/m2 for 100 IRE, I had to max out the OLED light. Most of the recommended settings have it much lower, and the range for a Y target goes quite a bit higher than 120cd/m2...have I missed something?

Last edited by koberulz; 02-06-2017 at 08:57 AM.
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post #12 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
I set the 20-point IRE settings to their defaults, then ran a sweep (using 5 for both 0 and 5, since I don't have a 0) with HCFR and the TV set for 2.2 gamma.
If you use the TV built-in 5 IRE to measure 0, that will totally screw up the gamma curve. Use a black pattern for 0 IRE, or manually override the 0 IRE measure with 0 nits (for an OLED).

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I went in and set the color formula to CIE94, which seems to be recommended from what I've read, and the 'absolute Y w/o gamma' option is greyed out. Why isn't that available?
As mentioned in my previous reply, you have to click Apply before choosing the Grey Scale dE formula.

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The other thing is that to get 120cd/m2 for 100 IRE, I had to max out the OLED light. Most of the recommended settings have it much lower, and the range for a Y target goes quite a bit higher than 120cd/m2...have I missed something?
You may have to use a small pattern for 100 IRE. The TV may have some kind of automatic brightness limiter which kicks in with a full screen white.
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post #13 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Could that also be causing a problem with the gamma? I tried inserting a 0 as the Y value for 0 IRE, and it did basically nothing to the target values for the 2.2 gamma setup. At 50 IRE, for example, the target is 26 and the value is 78. I still have the graph falling away from 1.6 at 5 IRE to 1 at 40 IRE, after which it disappears off the bottom of the graph.

Targeting 2.2 in both HCFR and the TV's settings.
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post #14 of 37 Unread 02-06-2017, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Could that also be causing a problem with the gamma? I tried inserting a 0 as the Y value for 0 IRE, and it did basically nothing to the target values for the 2.2 gamma setup. At 50 IRE, for example, the target is 26 and the value is 78. I still have the graph falling away from 1.6 at 5 IRE to 1 at 40 IRE, after which it disappears off the bottom of the graph.
As mentioned previously, to help with diagnosis you need to post the .chc file.
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post #15 of 37 Unread 02-07-2017, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, turns out it was the full-field patterns. My 120cd/m2 brightness on full-field was 340cd/m2 with a window. dE of < 1 across the board, with gamma.

However, my gamma is now a pretty flat 2.4, with the occasional bump up. I set HCFR and my TV to BT.1886. For some reason the HCFR reference gamma on the graph is also 2.4. The power law gamma is still at the default 2.2 (greyed out because I've selected BT.1886), so I have no idea where it got 2.4 from. So while my dE relative to 2.4 is fantastic, my dE relative to BT.1886 is doubtless pretty bad at the low end. And since this is supposed to be calibrated for a very bright room, 2.4 is absolutely not a good gamma.
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post #16 of 37 Unread 02-07-2017, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
However, my gamma is now a pretty flat 2.4, with the occasional bump up. I set HCFR and my TV to BT.1886. For some reason the HCFR reference gamma on the graph is also 2.4.
This is to be expected. The shape of the BT.1886 curve varies according to the black point, and approaches a flat gamma 2.4 curve as the black point becomes 0 (as with OLED TVs).

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And since this is supposed to be calibrated for a very bright room, 2.4 is absolutely not a good gamma.
You will have to use a different curve for OLED in a bright room. See for example
Chad B OLED Curve.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-07-2017 at 06:22 AM.
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post #17 of 37 Unread 02-07-2017, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Would I just have to bump up the black level and then HCFR will return a better BT.1886 curve automatically, or would I need the spreadsheet referred to in that thread? Do they mean actually changing the black level, or simply putting a false number into HCFR?
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Would I just have to bump up the black level and then HCFR will return a better BT.1886 curve automatically, or would I need the spreadsheet referred to in that thread? Do they mean actually changing the black level, or simply putting a false number into HCFR?
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post #19 of 37 Unread 02-07-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Would I just have to bump up the black level and then HCFR will return a better BT.1886 curve automatically, or would I need the spreadsheet referred to in that thread? Do they mean actually changing the black level, or simply putting a false number into HCFR?
No, one should never bump up the black level. Just use an override value in HCFR using the "override black" option.

Last edited by Dominic Chan; 02-07-2017 at 02:04 PM.
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No, one should never bump up the black level. Just use an override value in HCFR using the "override black" option.
They are just overriding the 0% black level in the software so the 1886 gamma curve comes out of black a little quicker.

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post #21 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay, I seem to be getting there. But I can't get the gamma of 95 IRE to co-operate. It's always either way too high, or way too low. Generally I'll run a sweep manually, the gamma of 95 will pop up to around 2.8 when I test it and then down a bit once I test IRE 100, but it still ticks up at 95. I don't seem to be able to eliminate, or even minimise, this problem.

The second thing is that my dE values are way higher when I run a sweep automatically than when I do it manually (selecting each value, displaying the appropriate window, pressing the snapshot button). Surely they should be (approximately) the same? I'm having 0.1 dE's pop up to 4s and 5s.
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post #22 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
The second thing is that my dE values are way higher when I run a sweep automatically than when I do it manually (selecting each value, displaying the appropriate window, pressing the snapshot button). Surely they should be (approximately) the same? I'm having 0.1 dE's pop up to 4s and 5s.
What dE values are you getting with sweeps? Are you using the floating window patterns?
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post #23 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm using the AVSHD disc primarily. I'm also setting up a laptop I have plugged in via HDMI and used the floating patterns for that, but that's even crazier - it always clips below 16 and above 235, and the adjustment points in the LG menu don't seem to line up with the samples.
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post #24 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
I'm using the AVSHD disc primarily. I'm also setting up a laptop I have plugged in via HDMI and used the floating patterns for that, but that's even crazier - it always clips below 16 and above 235, and the adjustment points in the LG menu don't seem to line up with the samples.
That's RGB full versus limited.

You will get better contrast range if both sides use RGB full, but if you mostly view pre-recorded content like movies which assume RGB limited, then switch your laptop to using RGB limited for the calibration.

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post #25 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I've tried both full and limited in the AMD Control settings. Didn't seem to make a difference. It's basically just used for NBL.TV at the moment.

Last edited by koberulz; 02-10-2017 at 09:57 AM.
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post #26 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 12:33 PM
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I'm using the AVSHD disc primarily.
If you're using the AVSHD disc, how did you "run the sweep automatically"? Don't you have to advance through each pattern manually? Is the difference only in continuous read vs snapshot (unique measure)?
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post #27 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I mean running it via the 'measure greyscale' button, where it pops up a message and you just advance the disc and press 'OK'. As opposed to manually selecting each IRE level in sequence and getting a snapshot.

I think I've figured out what it is, though: doing it via the sweep is much quicker. I just sat and watched my peak white go from 44.7 to 45.2 over about 20 seconds on a continuous measure. So I'm calibrating for what displays when it's...warmed up, I guess? But then a sweep goes through and gets it really early in the display of each level, which is not what I calibrated for. Thus, higher dE values.

Not sure if I should make sure I wait, or if I have to keep switching patterns constantly and taking snapshots so I calibrate to what it is when it first shows up.
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post #28 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
I mean running it via the 'measure greyscale' button, where it pops up a message and you just advance the disc and press 'OK'. As opposed to manually selecting each IRE level in sequence and getting a snapshot.
Even in the manual mode I still click on Continuous Measures (Green triangle icon) instead of the Unique Measure (Camera icon).
Quote:
I think I've figured out what it is, though: doing it via the sweep is much quicker. I just sat and watched my peak white go from 44.7 to 45.2 over about 20 seconds on a continuous measure. So I'm calibrating for what displays when it's...warmed up, I guess?
If you use a small window pattern or APL pattern there shouldn't be much warmup in 20 seconds.
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post #29 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm using the ColorHCFR Windows patterns on the AVS HD disc.

There's a feature to prevent burn-in that dims the screen if the same image is displayed for too long, which has caught me a couple of times. But that can be solved by going back into the TV menu, which changes things enough to kick the brightness back up. Not sure if something similar is at play here, but Y values definitely increase gradually when I shift up to the next pattern.
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post #30 of 37 Unread 02-10-2017, 02:19 PM
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Not sure if something similar is at play here, but Y values definitely increase gradually when I shift up to the next pattern.
Shouldn't the burn-in prevention decrease the luminance rather than increasing it?
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