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post #1 of 18 Old 02-06-2017, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Calibrating LG OLEDs with OLED Light near max

I found something interesting today thats worth opening a new thread. Credit goes to norbert.s in the german hifi-forums forum for instilling the thought in my head and being responsible for me trying it out eventually.

This concerns SDR (bt.709, ...) calibrations only.

Basically the idea is that OLED Light and Contrast shouldn't be lowered "in equal measures" from their starting position in cinema or ISF mode until you reach the desired luminance target of white, but that you could and maybe even should leave OLED Light at a high setting (max, or only slightly lower - will have to test different settings) - and instead set the luminance of white (Y target) pretty much exclusively with contrast.

Why this matters.

If you set the OLED to a Y target of around 100 nits (which is the most usual luminance target for calibrating for a dim environment), the other way around - lets say ending up at OLED Light 31, Contrast 74 - even calibrating a flat PLG 2.2 gamma will result in you loosing perfect black.

On the B6 this comes from mainly the blue corrections that are needed.

To explain -

OLED Light 31, Contrast 74 (= roughly 100 nits)
Will lead you to increase low IRE 2 step blue by 7, then make you lower 5 IRE blue in 20 step by a little to hit the target.

At that point you are loosing perfect black. (Tested on a B6.)

The tricky thing is, that this isn't measurable with an i1d3 (still measures ??? (infinite contrast)) - and your iris adjusts for it - so you can only test it in a dark room on dark patterns or scenes - but once you compare it to the calibration I'l talk about next - it becomes obvious.

OLED Light 100, Contrast 46 (= roughly 100 nits)
Will lead you to increase low IRE 2 step blue by 0 (also no decrease needed), then make you lower 5 IRE blue in 20 step by a little to hit the target.

So the way that doesn't lose you perfect black has you doing less irratic calibration steps as well.

There are other benefits.

First - at OLED Light 100, Contrast 46, APL gets engaged far less. Meaning average picture level (brightness) can be noticeably higher before APL kicks in.

Second - perceptual benefits. Call it color metamerism failure (from my understanding it has to be), call it whatever -

but

OLED Light 100, Contrast 46 and OLED Light 31, Contrast 74 calibrations for PLG 2.4 look very different.

OLED Light 31, Contrast 74 pushes out stranger colors - perceptively speaking. I will do a dE comparison in the future - (because the other way to explain this is simply dE diffference) but for now - targeting OLED Light 100, Contrast 46 gives you a more "natural" image.

OLED Light 100, Contrast 46 mixes in more white subpixel light - which has much broader spectrum cones - all in all lessening the metamerism failure issue. So that would be one explanation.
--

Calibrating for "high OLED light" might be worse in two ways though -

- although lowering Contrast doest have a negative impact on brightness clipping or color gradient patterns (at least I have perceived none (using 4:4:4 chroma with 1080p test patterns scaled on the PC side to 4k)), the overall image seems a little less "punchy" (contrasty) - but subjectively I prefer it to the image that results from a OLED Light 31, Contrast 74 calibration.

- Near black levels (first few steps) are more prone to crush on the OLED Light 100, Contrast 46 calibration - on the B6. Apparently (according tho the findings on hifi-forum.de again) higher tier 2016 LG OLEDs have less "indefeatable crush" (regardless of how you correct 5 IRE), than the b6 (lowest end model). So thats something to test as well.

Keep in mind - that I did this comparison with PLG 2.2 (and PLG 2.4), - first tests I made also indicate - that if you use any black compensation , you have to lower blue at 5 IRE even more, potentially increasing the "loosing true black issue" at lower OLED light levels even more. I can't say for sure because again - we cant measure it with the i1d3.
--

I would highly suggest, that you at least try one of your "best calibration presets" against the same calibation (target wise) with a "near max OLED Light and lower Contrast" calbration - IF you have calibrated anywhere near the 100-120 nits target.

Experiencing "true black" for the first time in a dark room alone is worth it. (Your current calibration might not give you true blacks - even though the i1d3 is telling you it does.)

Any comments appreciated.

In the future I will try slightly lower OLED Light settings (towards the 100 nits target) as well. edit: If you need a frame in between which to test - setting OLED Light to 80-100 is where the ABL doesn't kick in nearly as often.
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post #2 of 18 Old 02-06-2017, 01:21 PM
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I don't have any experience with LG's OLED displays, but Contrast adjustment is usually digital, meaning it works on the input video signal instead of the OLED Light or backlight.

By adjusting the contrast you are changing the contrast of the video signal (probably converted to 12-bit) instead of the drive voltage offset of the LED's.

I would imagine it would be best to leave the contrast as high as possible as long as you don't have any banding, clipping or weird spikes in the EOTF curve.

Why else would LG even include a OLED Light setting if the processing was setup so you could just adjust it using the contrast control (and achieve the same results)?
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post #3 of 18 Old 02-06-2017, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
I found something interesting today thats worth opening a new thread. Credit goes to norbert.s in the german hifi-forums forum for instilling the thought in my head and being responsible for me trying it out eventually.

This concerns SDR (bt.709, ...) calibrations only.

Basically the idea is that OLED Light and Contrast shouldn't be lowered "in equal measures" from their starting position in cinema or ISF mode until you reach the desired luminance target of white, but that you could and maybe even should leave OLED Light at a high setting (max, or only slightly lower - will have to test different settings) - and instead set the luminance of white (Y target) pretty much exclusively with contrast.
It's better to set contrast as high as possible, looking the flashing bars of a Contrast Pattern, until you see the 253 bar (last one...flashing).

Reducing Contrast, impacts to lower gradation, you can see this looking the Grayscale Ramp or Color ramps patterns, when you reduce contrast then the gradation becoming less smooth and banding is adding, at low end it's the area there more problems are more visible.



Look a grayscale ramp and adjust real-time contrast to see the effect.

When you keep contrast at high level (without clipping) and reduce OLED Light to reach the target luminance you want, then there no reduction of gradation.

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post #4 of 18 Old 02-07-2017, 02:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the input - I'll look at gradient patterns again and then report back.

As said before - clipping on white isn't an issue even with contrast set to 46 at least not until the 235 level. I've set up the signal chain in limited RGB (conversion at the graphic card level) - as it resulted in better dE values across the board on this setup (yes - i've seen the comparison pictures with BR content).

The point about "why LG would introduce an OLED Light at all" can be countered with there always being a mixture between OLED Light and Contrast settings at play - and 100 not being a fixed target in the concept at all, its just an arbitrary starting point.

Use 90, use 80 - but the idea is to play around with different "mixes" as they result in different perceptual outcomes to the usual setting of OLED light at around 30, when trying to achieve 100 nits.

We always have a mixture between OLED Light and Contrast controls - and the "conventional wisdom" also doesnt tell you to max out contrast either - so why even introduce a contrast slider, when you are always told to keep it at 100 or 85 (in case of clipping is suppose)?

So the idea is to play with different mixes.

The signal being altered "digitally" as supposed to adjusting the OLEDs isnt really a negative in my book - as long as there arent any artifacts that are introduced (should be mainly banding in case of "digital adjustment" (although not when the internal conversion is done in 12 bit) - so I'm checking that again).

We have no understanding about how to set them, other than us "mimicking" a vague real life standard for "all TVs" where we first set backlight, and then then do the small adjustments with the Contrast slider - always ending up at "around 85" - because thats the gospel.

To underline the main point here - lets do a little experiment -

If you have set up your OLEDs to 100 or 120 nits, post your OLED Light and Contrast values.

I'd assume they are all over the place - across different calibrators.

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post #5 of 18 Old 02-07-2017, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Short update regarding banding - on the B6 theres always some banding present.

I cant even say if it gets better of worse depending on the Contrast setting.

With contrast high (90+) it masks some banding on a 0-128 gradient pattern in the darker region. But at the same time makes the banding thats still visible more pronounced (segments become smaller - in effect creating more steps).

From 128-255 (gradient) there is no banding visible at all, regardless of contrast or OLED light settings.

Tested on all different kinds of of OLED light settings (Oled Light introduces what in effect can be described as changes in the "clouding" pattern.

Signal was ycbcr444 (limited) - I'll test it again with full RGB (4:4:4) --

So far artifacting imho is no reason to go "high Contrast" over "high OLED Light".

I'll do some more testing with different gamma curves and eventually report back my findings. Currently I'm testing with OLED Light 85, and I still like it better than the OLED Light 31, Contrast 74 PLG 2.4 calibration.

I'll have to pause testing for a few days, but the next time I'm reporting back, I'll present more detail.

edit: I just remembered that all full chroma resolutions (4:4:4) only output in 8bit in 4k - so I have to test this with higher bit depth but lower chroma as well. That said, I'll be sticking to full chroma regardless of the outcome..

edit2: Tested with FULL RGB (4:4:4) 8bit and ycbcr 4:2:0 12 bit - exact same outcome. Always banding present at low IRE gradients, banding gets more "steppy" if contrast is raised.

Conclusion stands - artifacting imho is no reason to go "high Contrast" over "high OLED Light".

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post #6 of 18 Old 02-07-2017, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
Short update regarding banding - on the B6 theres always some banding present.

I cant even say if it gets better of worse depending on the Contrast setting.

With contrast high (90+) it masks some banding on a 0-128 step pattern in the darker region. But at the same time makes the banding thats still visible more pronounced (segments become smaller - in effect creating more steps).

From 128-255 (gradient) there is no banding visible at all, regardless of contrast or OLED light settings.

Tested on all different kinds of of OLED light settings (Oled Light introduces what in effect can be described as changes in the "clouding" pattern.

Signal was ycbcr444 (limited) - I'll test it again with full RGB (4:4:4) --

So far artifacting imho is no reason to go "high Contrast" over "high OLED Light".

I'll do some more testing with different gamma curves and eventually report back my findings. Currently I'm testing with OLED Light 85, and I still like it better than the OLED Light 31, Contrast 74 PLG 2.4 calibration.

I'll have to pause testing for a few days, but the next time I'm reporting back, I'll present more detail.
If you have time, do an ABL test in the future.

For example take a 100% White reading with different window sizes: 10,25,50,60,70,80,90% Windows and 100% full field pattern with OLED @ High + Contrast @ Low and them re-measure with OLED @ Low - Contrast @ High. Both settings you use, we need to have the same peak output.

...and post the Y per pattern size results, it will be an interesting test for LG OLED users to show if ABL is affected by by OLED or Contrast setting. (I don't own LG OLED to do that test).

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post #7 of 18 Old 02-07-2017, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Will do.
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post #8 of 18 Old 02-07-2017, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
Will do.
Cool, just pre-calibrate using 10% Window the 100% White first, both modes: OLED-High w/ Contrast-Low vs. OLED-Low w/ Contast-High (85)

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post #9 of 18 Old 02-07-2017, 04:44 PM
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Great observations. Looking forward to delving in on the C6 in a couple of weeks.
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post #10 of 18 Old 02-07-2017, 08:53 PM
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I've mentioned the interesting behavior of the "contrast" slider, which I think is the real culprit at work here.
I'm just now starting to play with SDR so I can find service menu settings that work for both SDR and HDR. On my E6 SDR contrast behaves just like I mentioned for HDR, but so far with my testing it has has continued to hold true and I think this is something that should be considered when calibrating.
Adjusting brightness and contrast will change the location of calibration controls.
But since setting black level is nearly universal, even without tools, no one has noticed it happening down there yet unlike control alignment past 50%.
This could just all be on my E6. No one else has confirmed or denied my observations, but I'll continue to share my experience just in case it might somehow help.

See my soon-to-be post in the calibration thread for more about this alignment stuff..

I've also noticed a difference in banding, and changes to the inconsistent luminance changes (drop Contrast to ~80, look at a 3% near black window and push brightness up and down and watch as the pattern randomly gets brighter and darker while absolute 0% black smoothly changes. I have two posts in the calibration thread: one showing and fixing this for red, and another showing the static banding (as in unchanging) of the other colors that is always present and needs to be masked where possible--red is the only dynamically changing one, thus can be corrected).

I've not done enough testing on this to prove it, but I think ALB strength might possibly be kinda sorta perhaps be in some way tied to the difference between Brightness and Contrast sliders. They are not the only way to set 0% black and 100% white you know, you can use service menu controls and white balance controls without touching the brightness/contrast sliders. I don't think anyone who knows the basics of calibration would ever consider other such possibilities that are outside of typical procedures. At least I know I wouldn't if I was taught by someone who would say "this is how it's done".

I didn't really notice it until I had brightness/contrast both at 50, oled@100, and used both 2-point and 20-point controls AND the 20-point controls in the service menu. 100% white windows and full screen fields measured ~95/100 nits respectively. This might also be the reason the dimming was insignificant. Also, I couldn't adjust near 50% at all by doing this which killed the contrast and white balance, washing everything out in this region, so I quickly abandoned it. Even earlier I remember keeping oled@100 (thinking it would weaken the strength of dimming) with brightness/contrast ~54/64 respectively (I think), where a 10% window of 100% white measured ~130 nits and a full screen field of 100% measured ~100 nits. I only remember one time where I left oled light at 100, and a 10% window was more than double the nits of a full screen field.
And like I said, I've not done enough testing for this and chances are I'm just trying to believe something that isn't true (can control ABL dimming lol)


I also believe there is more to triggering APL than we could think of. Just look at this crazy nonsense.
At the very start I briefly show only three flashes or so of ABL rapidly turning on and off without moving the mouse and nothing changing on the screen. I could have left the mouse there longer and it would have continued switching on and off but didn't because epilepsy.
Then I start dragging the window around, and you can see where it again goes on and off, and sometimes it happens even when I don't drag it over Madshi's chroma test file. It makes absolutely no sense if we think ABL is being triggered by just ONE thing (oled light, contrast ratio, average picture levels, circuit loads, thermal protection, etc).
I should note that this was not on fully calibrated configuration, and I've not been able to reproduce this with firmware 04.30.95 (I've not really tried either).
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post #11 of 18 Old 02-09-2017, 05:11 PM
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I am curious, do you still get the peak 650 cd/m2 brightness with HDR content after lowering the contrast to 50?
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post #12 of 18 Old 02-09-2017, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quad5Ny View Post
Why else would LG even include a OLED Light setting if the processing was setup so you could just adjust it using the contrast control (and achieve the same results)?
IMO, all controls for a digital display, like brightness/contrast, should be viewed as a whole and not individually. I don't know how to say what I'm really thinking. As an example, you can use more than one control to adjust for the same thing. You can adjust luminance with brightness and contrast and white balance controls. You can set black levels with contrast or set whites with brightness, or use neither and use white balance controls.

Because everything works together in many ways, the video processing can be effected by simply having control values higher or lower (read: the actual number, like contrast=90) on some sliders and +/- controls. You could have two setups where brightness/contrast was used to set 0% and 100%, and another where 20-point controls were used.
Now, there could be difference between those imaginary setups could be anything. Color clipping, banding, posterization, "mosquito noise", "dirty screen effect", screen uniformity, clouding/mura/vignetting, noticeable dithering patterns, and more.

Some displays simply crap out at specific values, adding stuff above, yet be fine at other values. Ex: A display might crap out with contrast at 86, yet be fine at 0-85 and 87-100.
Having multiple controls for the same thing are wonderful for this reason, as it allows us to calibrate this crap out by shifting values around.

OLED light, and the "adjusting luminance" for SDR 20-point white balance controls, are basically the same thing--can adjust R/G/B luminance equally without causing much of any side effects for the other controls.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quad5Ny View Post
I am curious, do you still get the peak 650 cd/m2 brightness with HDR content after lowering the contrast to 50?
Even if you could, I wouldn't recommend it if your controls behave like ones on my E6 (high white side of the 20-point controls would stop working because the signal would be clipped, and working controls would be effecting a wide range over multiple patterns.
For me, brightness and contrast are PRIMARILY used to align the 20-point white balance controls (so the controls for each point match their intended pattern for calibration). Once aligned, OLED light can be used to set luminance.

I know I've suggested adjusting contrast instead of oled light for HDR, which does work out fairly well, but this was only for aligning the controls to patterns so control adjustments work as expected. I've also learned more about pattern alignment since then (setting perfect allignment for one control+pattern does not mean all controls and patterns are perfectly aligned.)

If you feel like playing in the Service Menu, you can further improve HDR control alignment by changing Sub Brightness and Sub Contrast.
See THIS post of mine from the calibration thread if you would like to see the behavior of brightness/contrast controls and how they change pattern alignment in HDR, again for HDR on MY E6. There are three potato videos where I show how it looks while changing brightness/contrast, what adjusting Sub B/C looks like, and what both together look like.
Because the controls/pattern alignment was greatly improved, I can now match all targets as specified by the "official" OLED HDR calibration procedure.pdf from LG.
Without changing Sub B/C, and with distributed pattern alignment, I was still being forced to ignore one of the last three targets as they were still bleeding into adjacent patterns to prevent reaching the large difference in luminance for those targets.
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post #13 of 18 Old 02-17-2017, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Did two comparison calibrations today -

one at OLED Light 28 - Contrast 74
one at OLED Light 85 - Contrast 43

Both targeting bt.1886 with the black point fixed at 0.005 cd/m2 (5% IRE at about 2.2 gamma), and both with about 100cd/m2 max brightness at 100 IRE.

Then I measured 100 IRE white with different window sizes with an APL Level of 50.

Results (+/- 2cd/m2 for effect... ):

OLED Light 28 - Contrast 74:

window size: 10% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 20% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 30% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 40% - Y: 86cd/m2
window size: 50% - Y: 73cd/m2
window size: 60% - Y: 61cd/m2
window size: 70% - Y: 53cd/m2
window size: 80% - Y: 47cd/m2
window size: 90% - Y: 43cd/m2
window size: 100% - Y: 39cd/m2


OLED Light 85 - Contrast 43

window size: 10% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 20% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 30% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 40% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 50% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 60% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 70% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 80% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 90% - Y: 100cd/m2
window size: 100% - Y: 86cd/m2


OLED Light 85 - Contrast 43 - already optimized has a higher color Checker SG dE average (afair about 1,7), but far better skin tone dEs. Near blacks arent that bad - at least not dE wise - brightness had to be bumped to 51. The overall image "tint" is "orangy" - cyan and green at 25 saturation are more visibly off (xy), although no hint of a magenta or cyan tint like with the usual configurations. CMS wasn't touched at all.
edit: Oh - and color 49 helps to get the edge of some greens that register too orangy.

I just finished the the OLED Light 28 - Contrast 74 configurations, so give me some time to do comparative viewing.
-

So those are the results - if you wan't to "combat" the LGs ABL limiter and don't want to play around with settings in the service menu, raise the OLED light setting.

Both images have about the same "characteristic" (edit: when ABL doesn't kick in) - I cant say that one registers as "more contrasty" than the other, same goes for perceived image depth.
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post #14 of 18 Old 05-17-2017, 07:13 PM
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Hi

I just tested with higher oled light 80 and contrast at 60,brightness 52,with that the picture looks cleaner and has less artifacts than oled light 37 and contrast 85 brightness 51,why is that?

I must say that oled light 80,contrast 60,brightness 52 is very good.Netflix looks good,Cable box looks good,everything looks better with higher oled light and lower contrast,less artifacts.

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post #15 of 18 Old 05-21-2017, 01:27 PM
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I have just given this a go on my e6 , previous calibration isf dark room oled 45 contrast 85 BT1886 2.35 gamma 160cd/m2 , isf bright room oled 100 constrast 58 BT1886 2.35 gamma 160cd/m2 .
I have been switching between the two for hours now and cannot see a down side to the 100 oled light preset .
Well only one is adverts are so so bright now just like an LED lol .
Dark content looks identical, bright content looks well very bright .
If I keep oled light 100 I may have to lower max light out put to 130vd/m2 as my normal night time 160 is too bright now with ABL limited .
I'll give it a week to see if there are any down sides and feed back my findings
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post #16 of 18 Old 05-21-2017, 09:07 PM
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looks good with oled light 100,contrast 46-brightness 51,but on my cable tv it don't work,because it is crushing too much,why i don't know.

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post #17 of 18 Old 05-22-2017, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
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Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
I found something interesting today thats worth opening a new thread. Credit goes to norbert.s in the german hifi-forums forum for instilling the thought in my head and being responsible for me trying it out eventually.

This concerns SDR (bt.709, ...) calibrations only.

Basically the idea is that OLED Light and Contrast shouldn't be lowered "in equal measures" from their starting position in cinema or ISF mode until you reach the desired luminance target of white, but that you could and maybe even should leave OLED Light at a high setting (max, or only slightly lower - will have to test different settings) - and instead set the luminance of white (Y target) pretty much exclusively with contrast.
It's better to set contrast as high as possible, looking the flashing bars of a Contrast Pattern, until you see the 253 bar (last one...flashing).

Reducing Contrast, impacts to lower gradation, you can see this looking the Grayscale Ramp or Color ramps patterns, when you reduce contrast then the gradation becoming less smooth and banding is adding, at low end it's the area there more problems are more visible.



Look a grayscale ramp and adjust real-time contrast to see the effect.

When you keep contrast at high level (without clipping) and reduce OLED Light to reach the target luminance you want, then there no reduction of gradation.
Hey Super Tedd

Probably a silly question as I'm sure you checked but when you dropped the contrast to see the lower gradation did you then raise oled light ? Did the gradation improve?
As contrast is the difference between black and white when oled is at 100 and black is black then does that not create a high contrast and restore the list gradation?
I must purchase one of your disks Tedd I have been meaning to buy one for months but never got around to it .
I have calibrated my e6 with a 100 oled 58 contrast just to see a side by side comparison with a standard cal 40 oled 85 contrast , apart from low to none ABL I cannot see any other difference.
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Contrast (technically white level) was originally a gain control and brightness (technically black level) was an offset that controlls what point the gain starts from. I believe OLED light is decoupled from con/brt controls so that it behaves like an lcd backlight which can brighten a panel without running out of color and causing clipping. This also means that the colors will only get as bright as contrast setting not OLED light so it doesn't increase dynamic range. Anyway my point is it might increase contrast of black to white I dont think it will affect black to color tho....

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