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post #1 of 14 Old 03-14-2017, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Apple TV hdmi output range labelled differently to other devices.

I started talking about this in an old thread in here cos I noticed someone else had come to the same conclusion I have. Apple TV hdmi output is labelled opposite to most other devices.




I have seen a lot of misinformation about this online and just wanted to put it out there for anyone else looking to set it right that Apple TV has the settings backwards to what most other devices use.

Apple TV is

Rgb high = 16-235 (tv standard) and TVs should be set to limited

Rgb low = 0-255 (pc standard) and Tv should be set to full.

Edit:

There's also a pretty simple rule to follow.

You can't have crushed blacks when the tv is set to full range, it will either be washed out or correct. So set tv to full range and try Apple TV set to low and it will be correct, then switch Apple TV to high and the whites and blacks will be washed out.

The same applies for setting the tv to limited except this time you can't have washed out blacks/whites, but instead you will only see crushed blacks when set incorrectly. So set tv to limited and set Apple TV to low and you will see crushed blacks. Switch Apple TV to high and it will be correct.

Easy to verify for yourselves.

Easiest test pattern to use while checking those settings is probably this one..


I can verify that video shows the differences correctly.

After doing that test for yourselves you will see that setting the tv to full range and Apple TV to low will have the same correct image as setting the TV to limited and Apple TV to high.

And you will also see that setting the tv to full and Apple TV to high will give you washed out blacks just as setting the tv to limited and Apple TV to low will give you crushed blacks thus confirming that on Apple TV rgb high = 16-235 and rgb low = 0-255.

I also posted this thread on reddit, as I find the confusion around hdmi range very annoying and don't like seeing misinformation passed around. And a lot of people would be setting the hdmi range for Apple TV incorrectly based on what all their other devices list these settings as making the calibration worthless.

Last edited by mick50008; 03-14-2017 at 08:01 PM.
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post #2 of 14 Old 03-15-2017, 04:49 AM
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This Video from You-tube has some inaccurate values, you-tube is responsible for this since it's re-encoding any video you upload.

Examples:

Box 3 has RGB Triplet 2.2.2
Box 4 has RGB Triplet 2.2.2
Box 11 has RGB Triplet 10.10.10
Box 15 has RGB Triplet 14.14.14
Box 18 has RGB Triplet 17.17.17
Box 25 has RGB Triplet 24.24.24
Box 4 has RGB Triplet 2.2.2

I just posting this for user which may try to adjust brightness based to the near black boxes of the video.

Other example of you-tube re-encoding is here: ***Official B/C/E/G6P OLED Calibration Thread

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
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Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #3 of 14 Old 03-15-2017, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Fair enough. I tested with other sources as well and the fact still remains the same . Apple TV hdmi output high is 16-235 and hdmi output low is 0-255. Which is opposite to what most people would be expecting . So beware and if you feel like confirming for yourself that video will still get the job done in an easy fashion , but I agree you shouldn't be calibrating your brightness or any other setting based on a YouTube video. It's just for confirming the hdmi output levels that Apple are using are a bit back to front in their labelling.
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post #4 of 14 Old 03-15-2017, 02:38 PM
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It's been consistent since the Apple TV 1 back in 2006. The "high" relates to a higher numeric value for the black level. The same adjustment is after all often worded "black level" on a number of devices.

I've never seen it any other way, but there might be some confusion how different televisions have worded the different settings (and some have also defaulted to different levels depending on the signal input being either RGB or YCC).

Can you point to a devices that name this differently than the Apple TV?
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post #5 of 14 Old 03-15-2017, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I did see someone else say in an old thread on here that Apple devices are labelled this way, however on a lot of other sites I am seeing people recommending setting it the wrong way around. And I figured the higher numeric value is how they arrived at naming it the way they have. Putting the number along side it would eliminate any confusion and be very easy to implement though.

There's a lot of misinformation in the links I'm about to post but you asked for devices that do it differently lol...


Samsung TVs for one, and they are a pretty big one.. use "low"= 16-235 and "normal" = 0-255 which is opposite to Apple.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1128491

PS4 uses "limited"= 16-235 and "full" = 0-255 which is fair enough but seems pretty similar to low and high on Apple which seems pretty similar to low and normal on Samsung which could lead you to think Apple hdmi range is labelled the same way.

And sony TVs do it the same was as the PS4. I'm sure I'm forgetting a few but they ALL really should just have a standard setting and name, I mean how hard would it be to just write "16-235 tv" and "0-255 pc" so you know what you are setting. It's 2017 and everyone is still using their own term for hdmi rgb range and it's been going on for a decade or so.

Here's another link to enjoy..


https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/...ion/td-p/71244

There's a million more like it with confused people not knowing how it works yet no one seems to care really. I have seen plenty of people's TVs/pcs/consoles and been able to tell straight away they have washed out/crushed blacks cos they never bothered to set the hdmi range correctly, or they aren't even aware it's a thing lol.
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post #6 of 14 Old 03-15-2017, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick50008 View Post
Samsung TVs for one, and they are a pretty big one.. use "low"= 16-235 and "normal" = 0-255 .....
I know for sure on my Samsung model and some others that the opposite is true. ie low=full range (not scaled by the tv), normal = limited for YCbCr and full rgb ONLY.

The confusing part is this, when you input rgb limited the levels are already at 16-235, switch the hdmi black level to normal the tv scales these levels again expecting full rgb so applies a scale from what is supposed to be 0-255 but now lands up (from rgb limited) to input 119-871 and output 70-872, should be 4-940 from rgb full 0-255 (samsung expands black levels with 8-10 bit conversion). This explains the grey look when rgb limited is applied with the hdmi black level set to normal.

The best way of describing samsung hdmi black level (scaler) is low=unscaled (input=output), normal=16-235 (rgb-limited or full, will be scaled to what is meant to be 16-235), YCbCr=unscaled. It may be worth mentioning that since YCbCr is locked (I suppose because there is not supposed to be YCbCr full) for hdmi black level, when YCbCr full is input then output=input.
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post #7 of 14 Old 03-16-2017, 05:32 AM
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I stilll don't see anyone doing the opposite of Apple. (ie. same wording of the setting, but switching low/high around). The problem is probably that it's easy to get confused when you see Full/Limited. The first instinct is to associate "high" with full and low with "limited", and that's wrong. Although OP is not wrong by any means, I don't think it's a special case for Apple. Everyone seems to be doing their own thing. Fortunately, In the real world 99,99% of all people just use the Apple TV with the setting on *auto* which defaults to YCC, so it's not really an issue.

However, Samsung is a special case. It seems they're consistently f.. up. "Normal" doesn't neccesarily mean "full" on Samsung, it literally means what type of signal Samsung has decided is normally expected for either RGB and YCC (I Guess they got this one right. it's locked on "normal") For RGB it can change by year or model. Depending on what RGB defaults to, it might even get switched around if you name the input to PC.
To add to the confusion, Panasonic has a manual Full/Limited setting to YCC. I've never heard anyone using this yet though.

It would be easier if everyone just used Video Format: RGB Full/Limited or RGB 0-255/RGB 16-235. Pioneer Kuro got this right ages ago (although the setting was only named Video, not Video Format)
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post #8 of 14 Old 03-16-2017, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I wasn't having a go at Apple specifically, just at the varying labels all these companies are using when it could be so much simpler and you out lined that well.

I don't think I have seen anyone else use low to mean full range though?

And Ivan , in that thread I linked it goes on to say that Samsung at one point changed the labels around, and they also mentioned what bloodhound just said as well about it varying depending on content , model etc. seems ridiculous.
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post #9 of 14 Old 03-16-2017, 09:22 AM
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You're not *wrong* in the sense that your intentions were good. But I think your conclusion about Apple is wrong.

Apple got it right, here's why: It's quite logical to call RGB Full / RGB 0-255 as "LOW". This means that RGB LOW is "RGB with LOW Black Level" and vice versa. The video format setting has many names but more often than not it's called "Black Level" inside the TV menu. You would expect setting the Black Level to "LOW" would transcribe to Full/0-255.

The reason you think Apple got it backwards is because you associated FULL=HIGH. And you're probably not the only one, hence the intentions of the thread are good and could be of use to someone. But ultimately you were wrong about Apple.

(I'll add that we have to disregard Samsung altogether for obvious reasons..)
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post #10 of 14 Old 03-16-2017, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick50008 View Post
Yeah I wasn't having a go at Apple specifically, just at the varying labels all these companies are using when it could be so much simpler and you out lined that well.

I don't think I have seen anyone else use low to mean full range though?

And Ivan , in that thread I linked it goes on to say that Samsung at one point changed the labels around, and they also mentioned what bloodhound just said as well about it varying depending on content , model etc. seems ridiculous.
Ridiculous indeed, all of this confusion for the layman or maybe even the professional calibrator is unnecessary, hopefully if they make amendments to the spec/recommendation they will include a global term for this, I think not, perhaps it is to easy....lol.

I can also say that naming the input on a samsung tv does not change the opertaion of the hdmi black level configuration, if pc it is more accurate than not naming the input.

Also if you come to think of it, HDMI black level as samsung have termed the control is an accurate label, if it's low the incoming black level is low (0)...confusion is really in the rgb limted region.
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post #11 of 14 Old 03-17-2017, 04:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
You're not *wrong* in the sense that your intentions were good. But I think your conclusion about Apple is wrong.

Apple got it right, here's why: It's quite logical to call RGB Full / RGB 0-255 as "LOW". This means that RGB LOW is "RGB with LOW Black Level" and vice versa. The video format setting has many names but more often than not it's called "Black Level" inside the TV menu. You would expect setting the Black Level to "LOW" would transcribe to Full/0-255.

The reason you think Apple got it backwards is because you associated FULL=HIGH. And you're probably not the only one, hence the intentions of the thread are good and could be of use to someone. But ultimately you were wrong about Apple.

(I'll add that we have to disregard Samsung altogether for obvious reasons..)

I think you are getting to caught up on thinking that I'm having a go at Apple or saying Apple got it backwards. The thread title is Apple TV hdmi out put range labelled DIFFERENTLY to other devices, and that's all.

As has been discussed by all of us here, lots of the companies do it in slight variations. I thought it might be handy for people to know it was low= full range with Apple.

I wasn't even going to create the thread until I commented in an old thread about it and someone commented saying no I was wrong and that Apple was the same as everyone else and that low = limited, so thought it might help. Here's the comment and link to the thread..

"Apple TV uses the term "RGB High" to mean the full 0-255 range. If you have a Samsung, the equivalent setting is "HDMI Black Level" and that should be set to "Normal" to match up.

Or use "RGB Low" on the Apple TV, meaning the 16-235 range, and use "HDMI Black Level" of "Low" on a Samsung to match.

References:
Is the labeling correct? "Samsung mislabeling HDMI Black Level setting "Normal" and "Low"
https://forums.plex.tv/discussion/21...xelated-grainy"

Reference Black vs Computer Black




And in that regard I guess it has with you guys confirming it for others as well.
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post #12 of 14 Old 03-17-2017, 07:35 PM
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This is a technical forum, where we discuss matters that don't exactly bring world peace, so let's stick to the topic and not try to read each others mind. I am not caught up on you're having a go at Apple or not. I think the issue warrants further explaining than just being content with Apple "doing something differently". Others might google this and look for this very information.

The thread title is obviously not referring to the *name* of the setting itself, so it's implied that Apple is doing something differently with the settings that you might normally might not expect.

You write "Apple TV hdmi output is labelled opposite to most other devices." and "... that Apple TV has the settings backwards to what most other devices use." On Reddit you write: "The problem is the way the Apple TV has them listed is the opposite of what most devices use. Normally low/limited = 16-235 and full/high would = (0-255)."

It seems the problem is people, including yourself, associate FULL=HIGH, without considering context. And you're probably not the only one, hence the intentions of the thread are good, but Apple did right to label them as they did.

On the other hand, I know of exactly one other manufacturer that use the same naming scheme as Apple: The WDTV line from WD. But they do the opposite, RGB High mean RGB Full 0-255 and vice versa. (I just pulled out an old WDTV to confirm this). They probably got it wrong and stuck with it. (If I remember right, the setting was first accessible in a firmware update, before it was included in subsequent 2nd or 3rd gen devices. I can't remember exactly so don't quote me on any of this)
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post #13 of 14 Old 03-20-2017, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I have noticed a weird issue on my sony 55x7000D with the apple tv. Setting the hdmi output to full on the tv and low on the apple tv doesn't stick after a restart. The tv reverts to limited levels while the apple tv keeps the low rgb setting applied resulting in crushed blacks. I have established that it is due to the fact the apple tv is showing up under "(player2)HDMI1" under streaming devices in the input settings when changing input as well as showing up under "hdmi1". This issue doesn't occur on my sony w800b, The full setting stays as it should. As a result I am going to be running with limited on the x7000d and ycbcr as that is what the apple tv defaults to and the sony tv seems to expect from it. Irritating that the sony reverts back to limited after every restart though, and it doesn't actually change in the menu, but after a restart changing hdmi output range has no effect, the screen doesn't flicker like it does when it actually changes and it's very obvious it isn't changing anything , changing input to the other listed apple tv input after a restart and the hdmi output range on the tv starts functioning properly. Not worth the hassle to deal with that every restart.
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post #14 of 14 Old 04-13-2017, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
I've never seen it any other way, but there might be some confusion how different televisions have worded the different settings (and some have also defaulted to different levels depending on the signal input being either RGB or YCC).

Can you point to a devices that name this differently than the Apple TV?
LG PF1500/PF1000 – low = 16-235, high = 0-255

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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