Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 194 Old 06-30-2017, 02:36 PM
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What you have to remember is that it has been many years since any film will have been graded on a CRT, so perceptually matching to one is unlikely to give you the same colourimetry as the grading colourist/DoP was aiming for.

All modern films tend to be graded on LCD matched to a D65 white point, or RGB OLEDS match perceptually to an LCD D65 white point,. Even if the original grade was on a DCI P3 projector - the TV deliverable will have been re-mastered with respect to a D65 LCD/Perceptually matched RGB OLED.

In today's professional grading market CRTs just do not exist.

Just for thought...

Steve
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post #32 of 194 Old 06-30-2017, 03:02 PM
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I don't think it's helpful for anyone here to know the exact offset a LG 2017 OLED will need when you are using a Minolta CS-2000a to match a reference CRT D65, unless it's a Minolta user and don't have access to the same place he has his OLED to a Plasma or CRT to perform the same perceptual matching procedure.

This White Point offset can't be used from other meter users.

We can say the unit to unit variation between Minolta's are below +-0.001 xy and the agreement between Minolta with any other 5nm spectro (which is recently certified) can be max +-0.002xy.

The posted White Point from Tyler is x -0.0054 y -0.0076, It can be useful for example from users of 5nm spectro's, but since we know that i1PRO's are not coming with any certification about it's performance in Emissive Mode (Their NIST document confirms that is accurate for Reflectance Mode, for papers, printed photos etc.... nowhere the proof of performance in Emissive Mode...we use that mode for display measurements) and if we count the larger unit-to-unit variation these meters have, it's better for any i1PRO1/2 user to to just perform that kind of comparison (using a Plasma/CRT or CCFL-LCD) to his own place because using another people offset it doesn't guarantee better results.

In Reflectance mode, i1PRO is using it's internal tungsten lamp to illuminate the object (the color on printed paper...since you using the meter in contact mode to the paper, if the lamp will not light up, it will be like taking a dark reading), so after the llumination (which i1PRO has certification since they used about 25 colored ceramic tiles to test/pass the certification) the reflected light will be analyzed by the i1PRO. When you are measuring a display; since the display has it's own illumination; the meter is working in Emissive mode and internal lamp is not used.

There is a reason why i1PRO's are called as Spectrophotometers (they measure the spectral reflectance of an illuminated object) and all other reference spectro's (JETI/PhotoResearch/Minolta/Colorimetry Research called Spectroradiometers (they measure the spectral radiance of an emissive source.)

We can say that i1PRO is both Spectrophotometer (when it's working at it's reflectance mode) and spectroradiometer (when it's working at emmusive mode).

X-Rite is calling it spectrophotometer because it's missing some specifications to reach some standards/certifications to be a true spectroradiometer.

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post #33 of 194 Old 07-01-2017, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Steve......Does the Sony rgb oled broadcast monitor with their corrections a closer match to LCD or crt? In your post, it sounds like the movie industry de calibrate these monitors to force match to LCD monitors that we now understand to not be that accurate. I wouldn't be that surprised if we wind up with content mastered both ways for a long while. Since you have a background in what the movie industry is doing, would you happen to have an alternate white point that for lg oled derived from a perceptual match to an LCD display.

Edit: I've been reading some of the post in one of the color forums which of course brings up yet another question. When the movie industry is referring to LCD, are they talking about CCFL or LED backlits????

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post #34 of 194 Old 07-01-2017, 09:06 AM
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Jim,have you tried Tylers wp yet,if so what do you like it?

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post #35 of 194 Old 07-01-2017, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
Jim,have you tried Tylers wp yet,if so what do you like it?
I've been at the beech this week. Hope to be back home this evening. Would like to try it if it's not too late.
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post #36 of 194 Old 07-01-2017, 02:00 PM
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I tried perceptual matching to my LCD laptop screen, but I wasn't really getting anywhere. It was hard to get a real match. Anyway, I tried using a matrix correction another member (Rich B) posted a while back, and I think it worked pretty well. I made it into a .thc file for HCFR if anyone wants to give it a try.

I think things were looking too red before, but now that seems better.
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post #37 of 194 Old 07-01-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
I've been at the beech this week. Hope to be back home this evening. Would like to try it if it's not too late.

If you been to the beach i guess you are tinted red by now

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post #38 of 194 Old 07-01-2017, 11:33 PM
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Did a normal cal on my LG B6 with my K-10A profiled with a new i1pro2 (checked ok with ted`s profiling workflow) then i changed the White Point acc to what Tyler found out,seems we lack a whole lot of blue from the "normal" cal,then i did a new cal with Tylers wp and now the cct value was up +360K,i have these 2 cal`s as isf day/Knight,no more time for fine tuning and testing but will switch between these two upcoming week
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post #39 of 194 Old 07-02-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
If you been to the beach i guess you are tinted red by now
Speaking of red tints...I think I mostly got rid of that by using the matrix correction posted above, but skin still seems a little saturated. Sometimes people look overly tan. Would lowering the color a few clicks help with this?
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post #40 of 194 Old 07-02-2017, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Speaking of red tints...I think I mostly got rid of that by using the matrix correction posted above, but skin still seems a little saturated. Sometimes people look overly tan. Would lowering the color a few clicks help with this?
I think Chad B recommended a color setting of 48 on the B6s....and a tint of G2. Don't know how well that carries over to other models/production runs.

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I think Chad B recommended a color setting of 48 on the B6s....and a tint of G3. Don't know how well that carries over to other models/production runs.
Thanks. I've got the C6, but reducing color to 48 seems better so far. Not sure if I need to do the green tint, but I may try that if I notice things looking funky. I guess grayscale and skintones are two different issues. According to my meter, I've got grayscale nailed, but skintones just seemed a little off.
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post #42 of 194 Old 07-02-2017, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
Thanks. I've got the C6, but reducing color to 48 seems better so far. Not sure if I need to do the green tint, but I may try that if I notice things looking funky. I guess grayscale and skintones are two different issues. According to my meter, I've got grayscale nailed, but skintones just seemed a little off.
When viewing content (especially commercials) try to see if the faces are leaning towards magenta. If they are, adjust general tint by adding green. This isn't the tint control in the CMS but the one under Color. This is based on what Chad posted a few months ago about the CMS not working right and fixing tint with the general tint control. I'm just wondering if grayscale is corrected with the alternate white point that Tyler of Spectracal posted, that changes the CMS behavior.

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post #43 of 194 Old 07-02-2017, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
When viewing content (especially commercials) try to see if the faces are leaning towards magenta. If they are, adjust general tint by adding green. This isn't the tint control in the CMS but the one under Color. This is based on what Chad posted a few months ago about the CMS not working right and fixing tint with the general tint control. I'm just wondering if grayscale is corrected with the alternate white point that Tyler of Spectracal posted, that changes the CMS behavior.
Thanks. Using my current meter correction, just reducing color seems to have helped, but I'll keep an eye out for the magenta tinting.

Not sure about the alternate white point. It sounds like there are a few things in play here. First, the result of the calibration is going to depend on the meter being used, and what mode it's being used in. There seem to be quite a few cccs and ccmx corrections going around. Results vary based on that.

Second, the white point is another factor. It'll be interesting to see what people thing of the alternate.
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post #44 of 194 Old 07-02-2017, 07:23 PM
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Here are offset I've created for 2016 LGs, 2017 LGs and the 2017 Sony A1E

Reference Meter: Photo Research PR-670 (5nm)
Reference Monitor: Pioneer Signature Elite 101FD
Ambient Room: Temperature: 73F (23C)


Note: All displays set to 20fL (68.5 nits) with 80% stimuli 25% sized white windowed test pattern to minimize pupil contraction in pitch black room. Final white point offset verified in pitch black room and day time ambient light. White offsets also verified on 3 2016 LGs, 2 2017 LGs and 2 Sony A1E of varying sizes and build dates

2016 LGs: x:0.3039 y:0.3214

2017 LGs: x:0.3076 y:0.3261

2017 Sony A1E: x:0.3090 y:0.3290
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post #45 of 194 Old 07-02-2017, 10:12 PM - Thread Starter
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D-Nice,

Thanks for all the work you did pulling this together.

From following the OLED threads, I would have bet the 2016 and 2017 would have the same white point except for what could be accounted for in manufacturing variances. Thought I read somewhere that LG was using the same panels in both years and wasn't due to make a change until 2018. Doesn't look like that was the case at all. Any insight as to why they are different?
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post #46 of 194 Old 07-03-2017, 03:22 AM
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D-Nice,

Thanks for all the work you did pulling this together.

From following the OLED threads, I would have bet the 2016 and 2017 would have the same white point except for what could be accounted for in manufacturing variances. Thought I read somewhere that LG was using the same panels in both years and wasn't due to make a change until 2018. Doesn't look like that was the case at all. Any insight as to why they are different?
The front filter causes a difference. It is the same reason why the Sony offset is different.

With the 2016 LGs, you also need to take into account it's rather aggressive ABL when you use the OLED Light control to set peak light output instead of using the Contrast control. I recommend using full field patterns to calibrate the grayscale since the ABL tends to drop the red channel as it ramps up. Use windowed patterns to set gamma and color.
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Looks like it's time for someone to bring back the old-school optical comparators!
That isn't a bad idea
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
When viewing content (especially commercials) try to see if the faces are leaning towards magenta. If they are, adjust general tint by adding green. This isn't the tint control in the CMS but the one under Color. This is based on what Chad posted a few months ago about the CMS not working right and fixing tint with the general tint control. I'm just wondering if grayscale is corrected with the alternate white point that Tyler of Spectracal posted, that changes the CMS behavior.
I gave Chad the Tint control trick last year
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post #49 of 194 Old 07-03-2017, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
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That isn't a bad idea
Ask and you shall receive. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/isf-...518987879?mt=8

They have both a free as well as a paid version. The paid version allows you to calibrate the panels on your IOS device. Don't know if there's an Android version.

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post #50 of 194 Old 07-03-2017, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Ask and you shall receive. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/isf-...518987879?mt=8

They have both a free as well as a paid version. The paid version allows you to calibrate the panels on your IOS device. Don't know if there's an Android version.
Hi Jim, iPhone screens are not so accurate, see there: Please share calibration SAMSUNG UE55HU7000U

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post #51 of 194 Old 07-03-2017, 05:59 AM
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Besides the iphone screen, can you be sure of the accuracy of its camera and do you know how it handles different LCD backlight types and emissive displays?

Oops, just figured out that this app is simply meant to be used as a visual comparison.

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post #52 of 194 Old 07-03-2017, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Jim, iPhone screens are not so accurate, see there: Please share calibration SAMSUNG UE55HU7000U
On the paid version of the app, you can use your jeti 1211 to correct each of the three panels to later use as a comparator. Now if what Steve says is correct about the film industry using a calibrated LCD to perceptually match OLEDs, wouldn't this work as a comparator as the iphone uses an LCD screen? The app isn't intended to globally correct everything on your device. Its purpose is to allow you to generate a correct comparator. The free version is where you'd have a problem as you can't correct those panels.
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Interesting read. Does ChromaPure 2.0 or ColorHCFR have white point adjustment?

 

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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
What you have to remember is that it has been many years since any film will have been graded on a CRT, so perceptually matching to one is unlikely to give you the same colourimetry as the grading colourist/DoP was aiming for.

All modern films tend to be graded on LCD matched to a D65 white point, or RGB OLEDS match perceptually to an LCD D65 white point,. Even if the original grade was on a DCI P3 projector - the TV deliverable will have been re-mastered with respect to a D65 LCD/Perceptually matched RGB OLED.

In today's professional grading market CRTs just do not exist.

Just for thought...

Steve


Sony used their BVM CRT to create the Judd modified white point for their RGB OLEDs, not an LCD.

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Most of our customers with Sony OLEDs us an external LUT box for calibration, and use the method we developed with FSI as the default Sony calibration is not deemed accurate.

The FSI displays use the same glass as the Sony OLEDs, and have a much more 'natural' Rec709 visual white point (and volumetric calibration) than the Sony defaults.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Here are offset I've created for 2016 LGs, 2017 LGs and the 2017 Sony A1E

Reference Meter: Photo Research PR-670 (5nm)
Reference Monitor: Pioneer Signature Elite 101FD
Ambient Room: Temperature: 73F (23C)


Note: All displays set to 20fL (68.5 nits) with 80% stimuli 25% sized white windowed test pattern to minimize pupil contraction in pitch black room. Final white point offset verified in pitch black room and day time ambient light. White offsets also verified on 3 2016 LGs, 2 2017 LGs and 2 Sony A1E of varying sizes and build dates

2016 LGs: x:0.3039 y:0.3214

2017 LGs: x:0.3076 y:0.3261

2017 Sony A1E: x:0.3090 y:0.3290

Will try the 2016 oled wp upcoming weekend,thanks for sharing

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Originally Posted by pbc View Post
Interesting read. Does ChromaPure 2.0 or ColorHCFR have white point adjustment?
HCFR has capability of custom White Point, LightSpace and CalMAN also.

ChromaPure 2.x or 3.x; I don't see that option, so you have to do it manually, to look for xyY only and adjust (skip RGB Balance), but maybe there will be a trick you can do by create a fake meter correction table....(ask Tom about this.)

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Here is a good article from JETI talking about differences between Optical Resolution of Spectroradiometers and problems that can appear with very-narrow Displays/Projections color measurements, including the Color Mismatch of Monitors issue: http://www.jeti.com/cms/images/jeti_...otes/an_27.pdf

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
On the paid version of the app, you can use your jeti 1211 to correct each of the three panels to later use as a comparator. Now if what Steve says is correct about the film industry using a calibrated LCD to perceptually match OLEDs, wouldn't this work as a comparator as the iphone uses an LCD screen? The app isn't intended to globally correct everything on your device. Its purpose is to allow you to generate a correct comparator. The free version is where you'd have a problem as you can't correct those panels.
BTW Look the difference in SPD using JETI 1211 of iPhone SE vs. iPhone 7:

iPhone 7:



iPhone SE:


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #60 of 194 Old 07-04-2017, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
BTW Look the difference in SPD using JETI 1211 of iPhone SE vs. iPhone 7:
Once corrected using the ISF comparator app, will they visually appear any different on the test panels on the app???

While reading over in one of the color grading forum, the logic for using an LCD over an OLED is that there are a whole of of LCDs out in the market where as a matter of percentages, OLED really doesn't have that much market penetration. Also, color grading on an OLED tends to crush near blacks when viewed on an LCD....which sounds to me that the LCD isn't properly calibrated but who knows???? The logic does seem to make sense but at what point do the color graders say that LCDs are blue-ish and they need to do something to offset it instead of trying to force other technologies to match it?

One thing from a personal view is that it seems that my brain is better at color correcting a slightly blue image but if the picture is yellow, green or red-ish, it jumps out at me.
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