Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 194 Old 07-09-2017, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Here are offset I've created for 2016 LGs, 2017 LGs and the 2017 Sony A1E
...snip...

2016 LGs: x:0.3039 y:0.3214
That actually worked pretty well on my 65B6. Only thing I did different was use a 25% window pattern. When I used a full screen pattern, I noticed warm/pink ish whites on content that was more like a 25% APL. I'd rather have a rare cyan ish white scene than a very often warm/pink whites on normal content.

One thing I noticed is when you get the color right whether it be in photographic color print processing or display calibration, you get this extra little punch in contrast. I'm seeing that with this alternate white point.

Thanks again Dwayne.

Edit: I should mention that I target a fairly bright peak white which probably explains why 100% on a full screen pattern would need more red that shows up on more normal average picture levels. Might be a good idea to try it Dwayne's way with full screen patterns and if your whites look fine, stop there. If you go for a brighter picture, then using the 25% pattern might work best for you. When I refer to a bright picture as my personal preference, its in the 70s ftl on a 10% sized pattern.

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post #62 of 194 Old 07-09-2017, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
That actually worked pretty well on my 65B6. Only thing I did different was use a 25% window pattern. When I used a full screen pattern, I noticed warm/pink ish whites on content that was more like a 25% APL. I'd rather have a rare cyan ish white scene than a very often warm/pink whites on normal content.

One thing I noticed is when you get the color right whether it be in photographic color print processing or display calibration, you get this extra little punch in contrast. I'm seeing that with this alternate white point.

Thanks again Dwayne.

Edit: I should mention that I target a fairly bright peak white which probably explains why 100% on a full screen pattern would need more red that shows up on more normal average picture levels. Might be a good idea to try it Dwayne's way with full screen patterns and if your whites look fine, stop there. If you go for a brighter picture, then using the 25% pattern might work best for you. When I refer to a bright picture as my personal preference, its in the 70s ftl on a 10% sized pattern.
Glad it worked for you. Yeah, I see why you did 25% with that peak output target. I aim for 30 and 40fL on all TVs here. 30 works well with 100% patterns. 40 is best with 50% patterns.
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post #63 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
That actually worked pretty well on my 65B6. Only thing I did different was use a 25% window pattern. When I used a full screen pattern, I noticed warm/pink ish whites on content that was more like a 25% APL. I'd rather have a rare cyan ish white scene than a very often warm/pink whites on normal content.

One thing I noticed is when you get the color right whether it be in photographic color print processing or display calibration, you get this extra little punch in contrast. I'm seeing that with this alternate white point.

Thanks again Dwayne.

Edit: I should mention that I target a fairly bright peak white which probably explains why 100% on a full screen pattern would need more red that shows up on more normal average picture levels. Might be a good idea to try it Dwayne's way with full screen patterns and if your whites look fine, stop there. If you go for a brighter picture, then using the 25% pattern might work best for you. When I refer to a bright picture as my personal preference, its in the 70s ftl on a 10% sized pattern.
Jim,

Getting a bunch of new approaches in order when I get home in two weeks to redo my C6 calibrations and found this WP thread.

Attached is a picture of the Target WP/Color Space editor for CalMAN. Do I simply plug in the x and y values D-Nice provided and save it? I don't edit any other values, right?

And after that, I just measure and use the white balance controls on the LG like normal to hit my target gamma curve...as in the new x, y WP values will automatically be calculated into the gamma measurement targets behind the scenes?

Thanks!



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post #64 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Glad it worked for you. Yeah, I see why you did 25% with that peak output target. I aim for 30 and 40fL on all TVs here. 30 works well with 100% patterns. 40 is best with 50% patterns.
D-Nice

For ISF Dark I target 40fl and for ISF Bright I target 60fl at 10% windows.

From your provided input, when I do ISF Dark measurements I should use a 50% window and for ISF Bright I should use a 25% window?

Do you still set max light output at a small window (no ABL) before using a larger window (like 50%)?

Thanks

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post #65 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
And after that, I just measure and use the white balance controls on the LG like normal to hit my target gamma curve...as in the new x, y WP values will automatically be calculated into the gamma measurement targets behind the scenes?
Hi, only enter the new xy of White Point and then save it. After that before starting your measurements select your saved new gamut as target gamut and then do the calibration like you do usually.

Gamma is not related with the target gamut, it's different setting for target gamma.

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post #66 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, only enter the new xy of White Point and then save it. After that before starting your measurements select your saved new gamut as target gamut and then do the calibration like you do usually.

Gamma is not related with the target gamut, it's different setting for target gamma.
Got it.

So I entered the x, y WP and noticed it changed the CCT from 6503 to 7093 automatically. And the secondary color x, y targets also changed. That's correct, right?

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post #67 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:04 AM
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Got it.

So I entered the x, y WP and noticed it changed the CCT from 6503 to 7093 automatically. And the secondary color x, y targets also changed. That's correct, right?
Yes, it's OK.

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post #68 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:09 AM
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Yes, it's OK.
Ok. Here is a screen shot of the new gamut target after WP entry. Just let me know if it looks OK. Thanks Ted



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post #69 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:11 AM
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Ok. Here is a screen shot of the new gamut target after WP entry. Just let me know if it looks OK. Thanks Ted
All looks fine.

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post #70 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
All looks fine.
One last thing. Should I also edit the WP with the same x, y values for HDR Rec. 2020 gamut target?

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post #71 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
One last thing. Should I also edit the WP with the same x, y values for HDR Rec. 2020 gamut target?
This require some additional check from D-Nice, to see if a perceptual match for D65 REC2020 have agreement with these custom white point coordinates he tested for D65 REC.709.

D65 White Point for REC.709 (BD Movies) Color Space is using: Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K while...
D65 White Point for REC.2020 (UltraHD Movies) Color Space is using: Red 26.27%, Green 67.80%, Blue 5.93% which gives 6504K also.

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post #72 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
This require some additional check from D-Nice, to see if a perceptual match for D65 REC2020 have agreement with these custom white point coordinates he tested for D65 REC.709.

D65 White Point for REC.709 (BD Movies) Color Space is using: Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K while...
D65 White Point for REC.2020 (UltraHD Movies) Color Space is using: Red 26.27%, Green 67.80%, Blue 5.93% which gives 6504K also.
Learning something new everyday. Thanks

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So I'm learning the how, but what causes the why?

As in, I saw the term metameric failure as the reason for the alternative WP but what exactly about the OLED approach is causing this? And what exactly does metameric failure mean? (tried googling but it's a little over my head)

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post #74 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
D-Nice

For ISF Dark I target 40fl and for ISF Bright I target 60fl at 10% windows.

From your provided input, when I do ISF Dark measurements I should use a 50% window and for ISF Bright I should use a 25% window?
Try both, but I recommend 50% patterns for 40fL.

Quote:
Do you still set max light output at a small window (no ABL) before using a larger window (like 50%)?

Thanks

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Yes
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post #75 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post
So I'm learning the how, but what causes the why?

As in, I saw the term metameric failure as the reason for the alternative WP but what exactly about the OLED approach is causing this? And what exactly does metameric failure mean? (tried googling but it's a little over my head)
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post #76 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Try both, but I recommend 50% patterns for 40fL.

Yes
Awesome, thanks!

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post #77 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
This require some additional check from D-Nice, to see if a perceptual match for D65 REC2020 have agreement with these custom white point coordinates he tested for D65 REC.709.

D65 White Point for REC.709 (BD Movies) Color Space is using: Red 21.27%, Green 71.52%, Blue 7.22% which gives 6504K while...
D65 White Point for REC.2020 (UltraHD Movies) Color Space is using: Red 26.27%, Green 67.80%, Blue 5.93% which gives 6504K also.
Unfortunately, I don't have a reference UHD Monitor here yet. I need to research what they are doing in post houses when it comes to this.
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post #78 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Try both, but I recommend 50% patterns for 40fL.

Yes
Forgive my "simple" question but what does using a 50% window offer over a non-ABL initiating window size like 25%?

Im trying to make a connection in my head over the benefit of increasing window size as fL output decreases (you said for 30fL you use 100%) for calibration. The answer is probably fairly simply so don't judge me too harshly for missing it.

Thanks again. I've learned a lot of new tricks to try. Color and Tint for skin tones, Sliding Power for gamma, this new WP offset, and now window size to actually make ABL kick in. But I also like to learn the Why behind these as well.

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post #79 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 11:54 AM
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Forgive my "simple" question but what does using a 50% window offer over a non-ABL initiating window size like 25%?

Im trying to make a connection in my head over the benefit of increasing window size as fL output decreases (you said for 30fL you use 100%) for calibration. The answer is probably fairly simply so don't judge me too harshly for missing it.

Thanks again. I've learned a lot of new tricks to try. Color and Tint for skin tones, Sliding Power for gamma, this new WP offset, and now window size to actually make ABL kick in. But I also like to learn the Why behind these as well.

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When ABL on the 2016 LGs kicks in, the red channel drops significantly. To counteract the behavior, you calibrate with the ABL active to a degree. Otherwise you will have teal looking whites when 40% or more of the screen is white.
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Thanks!

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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
When ABL on the 2016 LGs kicks in, the red channel drops significantly. To counteract the behavior, you calibrate with the ABL active to a degree. Otherwise you will have teal looking whites when 40% or more of the screen is white.
Lastly, I'd assume you use the same pattern size for Color and skin tone measurements as well, right? Or does ABL not really factor into those as much?

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post #82 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 02:13 PM
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Lastly, I'd assume you use the same pattern size for Color and skin tone measurements as well, right? Or does ABL not really factor into those as much?

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Experiment
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Experiment
Fair enough

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post #84 of 194 Old 07-10-2017, 06:54 PM
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Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs?

For the UHD HDR related question, next time I'm at a facility that has a Sony X300 + LG I will try to do a perceptual match and post the results here.
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post #85 of 194 Old 07-12-2017, 03:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Glad it worked for you. Yeah, I see why you did 25% with that peak output target. I aim for 30 and 40fL on all TVs here. 30 works well with 100% patterns. 40 is best with 50% patterns.
Does this summary look right to you? Anything you'd like to change?
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post #86 of 194 Old 07-12-2017, 04:47 AM
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Glad it worked for you. Yeah, I see why you did 25% with that peak output target. I aim for 30 and 40fL on all TVs here. 30 works well with 100% patterns. 40 is best with 50% patterns.
I've been shooting for about 130 nits on mine and have been using the window HCFR patterns. Is that still going to give me a good result? I read that we shouldn't use full-screen patterns on OLED because of the ABL?
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post #87 of 194 Old 07-12-2017, 08:27 AM
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For the UHD HDR related question, next time I'm at a facility that has a Sony X300 + LG I will try to do a perceptual match and post the results here.
Tyler,

Any chance you'd have time during the shootout to do the UHD HDR perceptual match since there will be a Sony X300 on hand?

Or @D-Nice if you're there. Wasn't sure if there is downtime to play around with the displays.

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Does this summary look right to you? Anything you'd like to change?
Not that it's necessary to change, but I believe you can go up to 25% windows without any ABL interaction (according to Chad) so the gamma and color measurements don't have to be limited to 10% windows AFAIK.

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I gave the 2016 alternate white point a try on my 2016, but it was asking for a lot more blue than my current calibration. It also needed increased red.
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post #90 of 194 Old 07-13-2017, 06:31 PM
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I gave the 2016 alternate white point a try on my 2016, but it was asking for a lot more blue than my current calibration. It also needed increased red.
Sounds about right

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