Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 168 Old 08-09-2017, 05:22 AM
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For real narrow-bandwidth displays you need a narrow bandwidth Spectro, like the CR-300
http://www.lightillusion.com/cr-300_probe.html

2nm.

We have a lot of customers using these for laser projection for example.

But, with all the tests we have performed on OLEDs it is nor really the bandwidth that is the issue.
It looks to be more to doe with emissions just outside the visible spectrum, specifically the amount of energy emitted in the blue region below 460nm.

Steve
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post #122 of 168 Old 08-09-2017, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Dwayne, I tend to agree with you but would like to look at the broader view.

I wouldn't discount the valued opinions of a well respected calibrator and a high level enthusiast.

Something's up.
I understand. All I can say is test for yourself.... side by side and you will understand.
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post #123 of 168 Old 08-09-2017, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post
....and what about the drivers, firmware, etc. Couldn't that make identical hardware spectros perform differently? just asking
Flawed drivers/firmware/etc could yield incorrect results. However that is not what I'm talking about. My point was a 670/1211 are comparable and would show the same results. I also get the same results using a CS2000a in the lab.

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While I'm asking, weren't all the spectros that we're using today designed before narrow bandwidth primaries came about?
No. Please remember these devices are used for more than TVs.
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post #124 of 168 Old 08-09-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
For real narrow-bandwidth displays you need a narrow bandwidth Spectro, like the CR-300
http://www.lightillusion.com/cr-300_probe.html

2nm.

We have a lot of customers using these for laser projection for example.

But, with al the testes we have performed on OLEDs it is nor really the bandwidth that is the issue.
It looks to be more to doe with emissions just outside the visible spectrum, specifically the amount of energy emitted in the blue region below 460nm.

Steve
I'm still reading research white papers on the issue but from what I've read so far, it's more than that. At the end of the day, people will continue to ignore the problem or acknowledge it and figure out what to do. Ignoring is easier and more lucrative since real color scientist still have not come up with a solution except stop using these types of displays. I can't wait to see the industry scramble when rec2020 is a reality in consumer TVs.
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post #125 of 168 Old 08-09-2017, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
...snip...
But, with all the tests we have performed on OLEDs it is nor really the bandwidth that is the issue.
It looks to be more to doe with emissions just outside the visible spectrum, specifically the amount of energy emitted in the blue region below 460nm.

Steve
Is this something that sharp cut filters would eliminate?

Klein K-10A, CR250, i1D3, i1Pro2, Calman Enthusiast, LG 65B6P, Panasonic 65VT50, and a great wife that puts up with all this.:)
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post #126 of 168 Old 08-09-2017, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
For real narrow-bandwidth displays you need a narrow bandwidth Spectro, like the CR-300
http://www.lightillusion.com/cr-300_probe.html

2nm.

We have a lot of customers using these for laser projection for example.

But, with all the tests we have performed on OLEDs it is nor really the bandwidth that is the issue.
It looks to be more to doe with emissions just outside the visible spectrum, specifically the amount of energy emitted in the blue region below 460nm.

Steve
+1 regards recommending the CR-300 spectro. It's the only spectro you will ever need to purchase! Suitable for calibrating absolutely everything optimally including all laser projectors. We invested in one of these and the calibration results speak for themselves. Phenomenal piece of kit!

Also, what a great thread! Seriously useful information!
.
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post #127 of 168 Old 08-09-2017, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
I can't wait to see the industry scramble when rec2020 is a reality in consumer TVs.
Ha! Maybe the timing of that might coincide with the consumer launch of HDMI 2.1 and the need for 48 Gbps bandwidth HDMI cables... So perhaps not merely a scramble but a total train wreck... Bring on the entertainment! Who wants to buy the popcorn?
.
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post #128 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 08:53 AM
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Finally - the first thread that tries to "tackle" a metamerism issue in practice.

Hallelujah.

But there are still a couple of logical inconsitancies in here that some people noted, and hinted at but no one is really talking about.

D-Nice' "definitely needed correction" is close to Judd Voss (much closer than to D65), with only a small discrepancy in blue, an a larger one in red.

jrref noted, that in the calibration shootout the E7 and the A1 calibrated towards D65 looked very close to the Sony BVM which was calibrated towards a Judd Voss target.

Chad B agreed in principle.

All three are OLEDs, but only the BVM is what you'd consider "narrow bandwidth", the WRGB Oleds are not. So in theory they should not need a "metamerism correction on white" - at least not one nowhere near in the vicinity of Judd Voss.

But thats exactly what D-Nice is offering.

Luckily at that point Light Illusion (the salesman of a specific workflow to mitigate metamerism failure, that no one in here has seen, but he is very active selling) emerges with a different explaination - that is "blue" emissions outside of the visible spectrum, that are causing the need for perceptual matching.

Thats interesting as D-Nice tells you to push blue, and Light Illusion, just "found more blue" thats supposed to be causing the issue in the first place.

Now the question becomes, Light Illusion, what do you think of D-Nices white point target? Please elaborate.

-

Furthermore Light illusion correctly points out, that most films in the recent past have been mastered towards LCDs calibrated to D65, and as people just NOW are beginning to look into congruency across display technologies, we have a problem identifying "masters" to compare our current TVs to.

ConnecTEDDD is found falsely answering the "but why is it needed here (= with WRGB Oleds)" question with a link to a video that doesnt answer the question at all.

Chad B rightly brings up the issue, that none of this is "practical in the field", when selling services.

And of course - correcting white, doesnt solve the metamerism errors on other colors - at all, nor does it "sufficiently mitigate" them - thats an issue in itself.

And of course - with "real" narrow bandwith screens, five or more groups of people, that formally fit the standard observer, now see significantly different colors, says science.

And of course - despite being held up as "a great display", all LG OLEDs show very high saturation errors in low luma (5-25 cd/m2 Y target) colors (which is an entirely different issue than the black crush that people are talking about). And this is an undefeatable issue, as it cant be addressed, by ANY of the built in controls. And of course - no one is willing to measure that on 2017 series TVs currently.
-

Now - I find it interesting nonetheless to talk about whitepoint adjustments (as indicated by visual matches of 80%+ grey/white). But here is a suggestion - if you are trying to compare them, not only post white targets, but also your final calibration, measured with the normal D65 target. Its a much more "visual" way to talk about what people that are posting "needed corrections" are actually proposing - and would allow for a more transparent and open discussion.

If everyones suggestion is either D65 or "very close to Judd Voss" (and dont mistake those two to be close, the difference between them is huge), thats a much more understandable thing to state, and a good thing to know - in regards to where the current consensus is at.

Last edited by harlekin; 08-10-2017 at 09:08 AM.
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post #129 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
Finally - the first thread that tries to "tackle" a metamerism issue in practice.

Hallelujah.

But there are still a couple of logical inconsitancies in here that some people noted, and hinted at but no one is really talking about.

D-Nice' "definitely needed correction" is close too Judd Voss (much closer than to D65), with only a small discrepancy in blue, an a larger one in red.

jrref noted, that in the calibration shootout the E7 and the A1 calibrated towards D65 looked very close to the Sony BVM which was calibrated towards a Judd Voss target.

Chad B agreed.

All three are OLEDs, but only the BVM is what you'd consider "narrow bandwidth", the WRGB Oleds are not. So in theory they should not need a "metamerism correction on white" - at least not one nowhere near in the vicinity of Judd Voss.

But thats exactly what D-Nice is offering.

Luckily at that point Light Illusion (the salesman of a specific workflow to mitigate metamerism failure, that no one in here has seen, but he is very active selling) emerges with a different explaination - that is "blue" emissions outside of the visible spectrum, that are causing the need for perceptual matching.

Thats interesting as D-Nice tells you to push blue, and Light Illusion, just "found more blue" thats supposed to be causing the issue in the first place.

Now the question becomes, Light Illusion, what do you think of D-Nices white point target? Please elaborate.

-

Furthermore Light illusion correctly points out, that most films in the recent past have been mastered towards LCDs calibrated to D65, and as people just NOW are beginning to look into congruency across display technologies, we have a problem identifying "masters" to compare our current TVs to.

ConnecTEDDD is found falsely answering the "but why is it needed here (= with WRGB Oleds)" question with a link to a video that doesnt answer the question at all.

Chad B rightly brings up the issue, that none of this is "practical in the field", when selling services.

And of course - correcting white, doesnt solve the metamerism errors on other colors - at all, nor does it "sufficiently mitigate" them - thats an issue in itself.

And of course - with "real" narrow bandwith screens, five or more groups of people, that formally fit the standard observer, now see significantly different colors, says science.

And of course - despite being held up as "a great display", all LG OLEDs show very high saturation errors in low luma (5-25 cd/m2 Y target) colors (which is an entirely different issue than the black crush that people are talking about). And this is an undefeatable issue, as it cant be addressed, by ANY of the built in controls. And of course - no one is willing to measure that on 2017 series TVs currently.
-

Now - I find it interesting nonetheless to talk about whitepoint adjustments (as indicated by visual matches of 80%+ grey/white). But here is a suggestion - if you are trying to compare them, not only post white targets, but also your final calibration, measured with the normal D65 target. Its a much more "visual" way to talk about what people that are posting "needed corrections" are actually proposing - and would allow for a more transparent and open discussion.

If everyones suggestion is either D65 or "very close to Judd Voss" (and dont mistake those two to be close, the difference between them is huge), thats a much more understandable thing to state, and a good thing to know - in regards to where the current consensus is at.
You really need to stop with your drive by posts. I do not and never have recommended a Judd Voss or close to Judd Voss white point for any WRGB based OLED. I never stated anywhere that an alternative white point is the solution to the meteamerism that exists with OLED and LED LCD. However it is better than nothing and definitely better than plain Jane D65 on said displays.

Posts on sweeps for 2017 WRGB OLEDs have been done and posted. Use the same skill set you used to find white papers for said topic to find the posts on AVS for those measurements,

No one has to post D65 charts to compare with the alternative white point charts either. If your cal software doesn't have the capability to switch white points on the fly to see the graphical differences, pony up the money and purchase CalMan which does.

I now understand why you have been shunned on AVS for years. As I told you in your thread... you know, the one that you've clearly abandoned... your approach is your problem, not the subject matter. You clearly like attention but lack stability to manage a real discussion on the topic. You may want to refrain from posting when you're unstable.
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post #130 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 09:16 AM
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^^^
Here are 25-100 scans for the A1 and the C7 -> Sony A1E Calibration Thread

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post #131 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Is this something that sharp cut filters would eliminate?
No. Meters are not the problem.
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post #132 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 09:17 AM
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^^^
Here are 25-100 scans for the A1 and the C7 ->
Don't help him. Let him find them on his own John.
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post #133 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 10:46 AM
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D-Nices white targets are "close" to Judd Voss (with blue pushed by7+%, red differs though), I will post visual comparisons later.

Also - please understand that the main issue with this community has always been, that the standards dont work, and when a handfull of "god calibrators" venture out to "solve the issues for themselves" - consensus then never is reached, standards dont get improved -- but dont worry, there are always two or three people that are willing to come up with "incredibly creative" suggestions for why something doesnt work. (And it might just be that pesky, "below the visible spectrum blue", or the meters resolution...)

(On the current LG OLEDs a shared i1d3 correction file created on a Color Munki Photo and on a i1 pro, on different TVs, are so close - that all thats different between them is ONE suggested tick of the green gain slider - so no, its not meter resolution in this case - at least not very likely.)

And once one of those glorious white knight calibrators venturing out feels he/she has been insulted the thread ends and the shunning begins.
-

Lets get things straight for once -

I didnt even chose sides this time, I pointed out 5-7 logical inconsistancies, within this thread (who cares about the scientific process, people want recognition!), then suggested a "better" (as in more visual) way to talk about the white point target differences suggested.

I could have easily beat this thread down, mentioning that you have no locigal explanation for why LG 2016/2017 panels would be effected (not saying that they are not), they are not narrow band displays. The only thing thats supporting your claim is yourself, another user with a differen white target, and the illusive @Light Illusion who always talks about perceptual matching, but NEVER, EVER releases any figures, targets, results.

You have Chad B stating right out, that he doesnt believe anything like it is needed for the current batch of WOLEDs, and you have Connected chiming in with a non explanation, when someone asked, why this would be needed. (Why not watch a video instead, that will sidetrack you just enough that you forget your question...)

Still not saying that it isnt needed, just getting everyone on the same level.

And as soon as you see your "work" swimming away, you go full on personal attack mode, because - a mere disagreement about "how close to Judd Voss" the suggested targets are (they are close, not in dE, but in percatege adjustments suggested), is enough of a trigger for you to hide the other 5-7 logical inconsitancies in this thread, and disregard them - just so your "work" still looks pristine.

I can make this much shorter as well.

The idea to solve the problem by visual matching on white is highly debatable. When people (even the top calibrators in the scene) come up with whitepoint targets they are always different. The process is non standard. The entire industry is operating on "manufacturers suggetions" (Sony BVM should be calibrated with Judd Voss targets), which is a problem in itself (not scientific, not peer reviewed, not viable as a potential solution). Even people in shootouts calibrate according to suggestions, and when they do - they dont know why. Money quote from this thread "they have been told to stick to D65".

One thing thats worth to notice though is, that now people start to want to get in on "getting mind share" on this issue, because its hard not to see that something changed over the last five years. They might not even have read enough to notice that one white point target might not be the solution (I appreciate that some of you got three people in the room and asked them if they see a match), ever.

The more intelligent salespeople in this thread dont touch this issue, at all - because they know that none of them will come up with a solution.

Take a page out of Chad B's book for example, he sticks to what is broken, because he cant sell a solution where you measure your customers CMF before a calibration session. He knows, that most of what he is selling is confidence - and so the "Calman printout" game continues. Better values after, than before, always - and very visual, thanks to auto adjusting scale levels on all of the graphs.

Again - If you want to know whats wrong with this scene, you only have to read this thread.

I mean the excuses alone... the differences in white point targets are now explained by the reflective coating. Stop for a minute and think about what you are proposing.

Calibrators now need to know the reflective coatings of a TV for this to EVER become something resembling a science again?

Also - as said before, one of the problems is the ISF, who is not interested in exploring, why none of he TVs today color match at all, when using the currently active standard.

(Sony BVM was calibrated using Judd Voss, ... why? They havent even spoken out about that...)

Last edited by harlekin; 08-10-2017 at 11:09 AM.
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post #134 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
D-Nices white targets are "close" to Judd Voss (with blue pushed by7+%, red differs though), I will post visual comparisons later.

Also - please understand that the main issue with this community has always been, that the standards dont work, and when a handfull of "god calibrators" venture out to "solve the issues for themselves" - consensus then never is reached, standards dont get improved -- but dont worry, there are always two or three people that are willing to come up with "incredibly creative" suggestions for why something doesnt work. (And it might just be that pesky, "below the visible spectrum blue", or the meters resolution...)

(On the current LG OLEDs a shared i1d3 correction file created on a Color Munki Photo and on a i1 pro, on different TVs, are so close - that all thats different between them is ONE suggested tick of the green gain slider - so no, its not meter resolution in this case - at least not very likely.)

And once one of those glorious white knight calibrators venturing out feels he/she has been insulted the thread ends and the shunning begins.
-

Lets get things straight for once -

I didnt even chose sides this time, I pointed out 5-7 logical inconsistancies, within this thread (who cares about the scientific process, people want recognition!), then suggested a "better" (as in more visual) way to talk about the white point target differences suggested.

I could have easily beat this thread down, mentioning that you have no locigal explanation for why LG 2016/2017 panels would be effected (not saying that they are not), they are not narrow band displays. The only thing thats supporting your claim is yourself, another user with a differen white target, and the illusive @Light Illusion who always talks about perceptual matching, but NEVER, EVER releases any figures, targets, results.

You have Chad B stating right out, that he doesnt believe anything like it is needed for the current batch of WOLEDs, and you have Connected chiming in with a non explanation, when someone asked, why this would be needed. (Why not watch a video instead, that will sidetrack you just enough that you forget your question...)

Still not saying that it isnt needed, just getting everyone on the same level.

And as soon as you see your "work" swimming away, you go full on personal attack mode, because - a mere disagreement about "how close to Judd Voss" the suggested targets are (they are close, not in dE, but in percatege adjustments suggested), is enough of a trigger for you to hide the other 5-7 logical inconsitancies in this thread, and disregard them - just so your "work" still looks pristine.

I can make this much shorter as well.

The idea to solve the problem by visual matching on white is highly debatable. When people (even the top calibrators in the scene) come up with whitepoint targets they are always different. The process is non standard. The entire industry is operating on "manufacturers suggetions" (Sony BVM should be calibrated with Judd Voss targets), which is a problem in itself (not scientific, not peer reviewed, not viable as a potential solution). Even people in shootouts calibrate according to suggestions, and when they do - they dont know why. Money quote from this thread "they have been told to stick to D65".

One thing thats worth to notice though is, that now people start to want to get in on "getting mind share" on this issue, because its hard not to see that something changed over the last five years. They might not even have read enough to notice that one white point target might not be the solution (I appreciate that some of you got three people in the room and asked them if they see a match), ever.

The more intelligent salespeople in this thread dont touch this issue, at all - because they know that none of them will come up with a solution.

Take a page out of Chad B's book for example, he sticks to what is broken, because he cant sell a solution where you measure your customers CMF before a calibration session. He knows, that most of what he is selling is confidence - and so the "Calman printout" game continues. Better values after, than before, always - and very visual, thanks to auto adjusting scale levels on all of the graphs.

Again - If you want to know whats wrong with this scene, you only have to read this thread.

I mean the excuses alone... the differences in white point targets are now explained by the reflective coating. Stop for a minute and think about what you are proposing.

Calibrators now need to know the reflective coatings of a TV for this to EVER become something resembling a science again?

Also - as said before, one of the problems is the ISF, who is not interested in exploring, why none of he TVs today color match at all, when using the currently active standard.

(Sony BVM was calibrated using Judd Voss, ... why? They havent even spoken out about that...)
Much better post. Always remember, it only takes 1 to start change.


Now to the filter..... I don't know why there is a difference between a 2016 and 2017 LG when it comes to white points alternatives. But they are. Please understand that although my investigations and research into this matter can be called limited, it is not simplistic. I don't look at just one sample. I look at multiple and have multiple here. For the 2016 LGs, I looked at 10 random sample displays of different build dates and sizes. The white point I posted for 2016 works on all but the 2017 does not. I evaluated 6 samples of the 2017 LGs... different build dates and sizes. The 2017 white point I posted worked on all of them and they looked identical when side by side (3 side by side, 2 65" and 1 55" of different build dates). Same for the Sony. The only difference that stands out between the samples were the front filters.

Manufacturers are also aware of what is going on.... something you apparently do not know. Interest and solution traction on this subject will come but there is no need to have bitch fits just because it's not happening fast enough.

I offer my clients the option for the alternative white point and throughly explain why I'm proposing it to them. Attempting to do a CMF in a customer's home is both foolish and completely unprofessional so I get it if other calibrators choose not to do it. That does not mean it should not be done.
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post #135 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 01:41 PM
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Here is an easy to apply definition suggestion for what we might consider "narrow bandwith" displays:

Quote:
In a more recent paper, “Minimizing observer metamerism in display systems,” by Ramanath, (Color Research and Application, Vol. 34, pp. 391-398, 2009), observer metameric failure for different types of displays having three primaries is examined. [...] As a result, the laser display and CCFL display [or a specific LED display, or OLED display, dont take this as gospel...], which lack spectral color diversity due to narrow or multi-modal spectra, have a high propensity to cause observer metameric failure. By comparison, the CRT and lamp based DLP displays, which have broad primaries (Δλ≈60-70 nm FWHM), exhibit low potential for observer metameric failure.
Now lets compare this to the LG WOLED 2017 spectrum (about the same as the 2016 one):


Graph lifted from: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/image/uhdt...D55B7V/spd.jpg

Also they got the spectral placement about right:
Quote:
Some approaches to mitigate the problem of observer metameric failure have been previously suggested or demonstrated. As an example, Thornton and Hale, in the paper “Color-imaging primaries and gamut as prescribed by the human visual system” (Proc. SPIE, Vol. 3963, pp. 28-35, 2000), consider the problem of observer metameric failure reduction for an additive color display systems having three narrow-band primaries (Δλ˜10 nm full-width-half-maximum (FWHM)). The authors proposed that to reduce the effects of observer metameric failure, the color primaries should preferentially be close to the so-called “prime wavelengths” (450, 540, and 610 nm) which are at or near the peaks of the three spectral sensitivities of the normal human visual system.
The text is quoted from a patent application you can find here: http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20151...0150350492.php
Its not a highly regarded scientific paper, but its a ballpark. I dont know the exact full-width-half-maximum for the individual cones, so thats a guess, and I dont know if I can take the full-width-half-maximum measurement from a D65 white spectrum, but again, at least we see the ballpark.

Now, Panasonic plasmas had an even broader spectrum, but the one above closely resembles a LED LCD spectrum from a few years ago. Newer LED LCDs sport(ed) spectral graphs that are MUCH narrower, same with the BVM RGB OLED display.

To compare, look here: http://jov.arvojournals.org/article....icleid=2121369
and here: Calibrating Quantum Dot lit displays?

That said, blue is narrow (LCD LED "style" narrow) and not in the "optimal" spot, and red is not as broad as on mot LCD LEDs, so there still might be metamerism failure at play. I'm just mostly skeptical of a solution thats called "Judd Voss" and for the metamerism failure "attribute" only being applied to OLEDs. By the same measure, Im sure most current LED LCDs fall in the "metamerism failure as or more likely" bracket. But, in general, no one chooses to talk about it. And Calman doesnt advertise a compensation whitepoint for them.

That several people see such a huge (+7%+ deviation in blue) when comparing current devices to plasmas is interesting/worrying as well. In this thread we had at least two independent white point suggestions, that indicated a big deficiency in blue.

That said, the LG OLED panels have said problem of displaying lower luma (5-25 cd/m2 Y target) colors very oversaturated. It has never come up in reviews, because reviewers usually dont test that end of the spectrum, but thats a definite issue, that your colorimeters will tell you about, if you measure a wider range of test colors.
edit: The low luma saturation issue should be mitigated in 2017 models - see: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd65a1-201706044471.htm
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post #136 of 168 Old 08-10-2017, 03:49 PM
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Harlekin,

Why don’t you propose a solution and write a technical paper on it and submit it to SMPTE or HPA?
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Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
The text is quoted from a patent application you can find here: http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20151...0150350492.php
Its not a highly regarded scientific paper, but its a ballpark. I dont know the exact full-width-half-maximum for the individual cones, so thats a guess, and I dont know if I can take the full-width-half-maximum measurement from a D65 white spectrum, but again, at least we see the ballpark.
Good read. I would not agree that the WRGB OLED peaks are close to what is described in the patent.

Quote:
Now, Panasonic plasmas had an even broader spectrum, but the one above closely resembles a LED LCD spectrum from a few years ago. Newer LED LCDs sport(ed) spectral graphs that are MUCH narrower, same with the BVM RGB OLED display.

To compare, look here: http://jov.arvojournals.org/article....icleid=2121369
and here: Calibrating Quantum Dot lit displays?

That said, blue is narrow (LCD LED "style" narrow) and not in the "optimal" spot, and red is not as broad as on mot LCD LEDs, so there still might be metamerism failure at play. I'm just mostly skeptical of a solution thats called "Judd Voss" and for the metamerism failure "attribute" only being applied to OLEDs. By the same measure, Im sure most current LED LCDs fall in the "metamerism failure as or more likely" bracket. But, in general, no one chooses to talk about it. And Calman doesnt advertise a compensation whitepoint for them.

That several people see such a huge (+7%+ deviation in blue) when comparing current devices to plasmas is interesting/worrying as well. In this thread we had at least two independent white point suggestions, that indicated a big deficiency in blue.

That said, the LG OLED panels have said problem of displaying lower luma (5-25 cd/m2 Y target) colors very oversaturated. It has never come up in reviews, because reviewers usually dont test that end of the spectrum, but thats a definite issue, that your colorimeters will tell you about, if you measure a wider range of test colors.
edit: The low luma saturation issue should be mitigated in 2017 models - see: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd65a1-201706044471.htm
I don't think OLED is the only problem child. I've seen issues with LED LCD too and have made alternative whit points for the ones I have access to. Since I evaluate TVs for certain manufacturers, I can assure you that the measurements are through and go far beyond what I typically will do for an in home calibration. I think you expect too much from reviewers but I will say some are lurking and I'm sure you will see enhanced measurements in future reviews


Saturation issues with the LGs, and Sony's, can be managed with a LUT box. Below are a Pioneer Signature Elite PRO-101FD, LG OLED55C7P and Dell U2410 measured when precisely calibrated to x 0.3127 y 0.3290....in said order....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 101FD.JPG (117.1 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg C7.JPG (118.2 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg 2410.JPG (128.4 KB, 33 views)
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One of the 'tricks' we have often employed when calibrating OLED displays is to artificially reduce the saturation in the low-light region, to better match the 'look & feel' of more traditional display.

OLED is the few display technology that maintains full gamut (saturation) all the way done to near black.
This does have a real impact on the perception of the viewed image, and it is very interesting to see how matching this the more 'normal' response of CRT, LCD, displays helps with the viewer's perception of the displayed image.

There is also some logic to this, as human perception of 'colour' drops rapidly with a drop in scene brightness.

Just more food for thought.

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post #139 of 168 Old 08-11-2017, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
ConnecTEDDD is found falsely answering the "but why is it needed here (= with WRGB Oleds)" question with a link to a video that doesnt answer the question at all.
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Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
You have Chad B stating right out, that he doesnt believe anything like it is needed for the current batch of WOLEDs, and you have Connected chiming in with a non explanation, when someone asked, why this would be needed. (Why not watch a video instead, that will sidetrack you just enough that you forget your question...)
Did you had the chance to see the whole video? no... But It's very easy to blame Ted, without ever quoting/mentioning 'ConnecTEDDD'; for me to not see your post the correct time.



Read the question and then check at video the complete answer.

What is happening with you, have you checked?

Have you realized that you are increasing the number of the 'haters' for you, day-by-day with all that conspiracy theories and blaming other people posts? You have to say stuff which can open healthy discussions but you don't have the proper way to post them, the purpose if this community here is for helping people finding solutions, not for blaming other and not providing any help or any solution to no-one.

There thousands of users which are silent readers, they all see your posts and they totally ignore them, you should change your tone if you want to reduce the 'haters' of you here in AVS.

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

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post #140 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 01:14 AM
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Differences between the spectral cones for white and r, g, b individually on a 2016 OLED.

In the background you see the spectral graph for white from hdtvtest (measured with a JETI 1511), in the foreground you see the measurements from a Colormunki Photo, for both white and the individual colors - Colormunki Photo measurements taken on a 100 cd/m2 D65 calibration.



(I made it to illustrate the difference between a white cone spectrum, and individual r, g, b cone spectra on a LG WOLED.)

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post #141 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 02:11 AM
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You have just described justification for calibration to minimize variances between technologies. As the reason has always been.

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post #142 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 02:22 AM
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@ConnecTEDDD : I dont dislike you personally, you have helped me understand concepts in the past, and you are one of the members still very actively engaged in trying to answer questions from new users. I commend you for that. I was rough addressing you this time, but that was, because your answer wasnt an answer to the users request (and the most important question for a thread like this) at all.

He asked why "metamerism failure whitepoint adjustment would be needed for a LG WOLED", and you posted a video about metamerism failure in general, made with RGB OLEDs (different spectral distribution "character") in mind. (See one of the links I posted above, for the Spectral distribution of said Sony RGB OLED.)

Also - I was the person that first linked the video in this forum, so yes - I've seen it.

I just wasnt willing to prolong the myth, that this is something that effects all OLEDs "almost equally" (= close to Judd Voss correction needed), but that at the same time, no one talks about with other TVs that might need a correction even more (hint: high rec2020 coverage percentage = narrow cones).

At the same time - I'm not neccesarily here to make friends, if that contains having to go with the feel good BS thats catered to members of this community every day.

So lets make this simple for a change: Here is whats happened.

- Calman included a usable whitepoint correction for an RGB Oled, made by Sony, that is not peer reviewed in concept, that might not fix the metamerism failure on that Sony OLED at all (because its just a greyscale adjustment, because large populations of "normal observers", still might disagree, because...).

- This got shortened to "this is a correction that OLEDs might need" in the minds of people around here. Even thogh the spectral distributions between the Sony OLED and the LG WOLED are very different. At the same time all the proposed adjustments in here also ended up pushing blue significantly which is interesting and "odd" at the same time - still entirely possible.

- At the same time two groups were forming in here, one saying perceptual white point adjustments were very much needed, one saying they werent needed at all - on said 2016/17 OLEDs. On which I refused to choose sides (I really dont know which one is correct, because I dont have a perceptual test laboratory with 50 test subjects in my backpocket), and just emphasized that the difference between the two proposals was huge. (In terms of dE.)

And that people again were very willing to go with what one calibrator said, instead of looking at the logic behind it, or instead of going with the standard. (And if the standard doesnt hold up anymore, then fix the standard, don't try to patch it up.)

That said, I'm mostly unhappy about it, because Calman chose to integrate a "whitepoint correction" for RGB OLEDs, out of the blue. No consensus needed, no standards comity needed to look at it, they included it, because Sony said it would make that very specific expensive grading monitor they tried to sell look right. *boof* Mind exploded. (Regardless of if it was "the right thing to do" - science suggests it wasnt - because observer variability increases - and just changing one average target doest make much sense in that case...)

When Chad B talks about measuring his, and a customers CMF - thats the suggested solution for the problem from a color science perspective - its just not very practical.

- Also Light Illusion has now indicated, that to make the LG OLEDs "look right", they mostly desaturated low luminance colors. Now - in contrast to his previous quotes, where he insisted, that perceptual matching on white was needed (= color metamerism failure), this has nothing to do with color metamerism failure prevention, and is simply mitigation of a clearly measurable error thats problematic on those OLEDs (especially the 2016 models) in general. Also - I agree with him on that.

In fact, I find it astonishing, that up until the 2017 models were about to launch, no reviewer or renown calibrator even indicated, that this was an issue. Because they didnt measure those low luma colors at all, because the ISF procedure tells them not to... Now Vincent at hdtvtest has included that measurement in one OLED review, which is commendable.

Also you have to add, that this issue cant be addressed by adjusting on board settings, at all. So sorry - no whitepoint adjustment to "fix" this, this time... This has to be adjusted using a 3D LUT.

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post #143 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post
You have just described justification for calibration to minimize variances between technologies. As the reason has always been.
Then be my guest and -

- tell that to the standards giving bodies, because no ISF calibrator has EVER wanted to admit it.

- tell that to the ISF, because they should come up with a standard thats encompassing that in a workflow, if thats the case.

- tell that @Light Illusion , because although he has always championed how valuable and needed "perceptual matching on white" is, on the LG OLEDs for him its now mostly desaturating low luma colors, because the LG Panels show huge errors there, and that is not at all anything that would need "perceptual matching on white" to address. (In fact you only can "touch it" with a 3D Lut.)

I dont say "its right to do it" or "its the wrong thing to do", I say most of you in here are not using rational criteria for why it is needed, but just use it to sell product/services, by saying its there (/compensation needed) - or its not there (/compensation not needed), however it best fits your business model, even willing to change on a whim, wether it is an issue or not - while at the same time not being interested at all, that f.e. ISF standards should change to integrate the actual findings.

Its the same thing as Calman including a white point correction FOR ONE TV, without feeling the nead to look into if it would be needed for any other TVs - where the manufacturer isn't handing them a white point adjustment on a piece of paper and saying, hey - include that, the standard is broken.

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post #144 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 02:57 AM
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Then be my guest and -

- tell that to the standards giving bodies, because no ISF calibrator has EVER wanted to admit it.

- tell that to the ISF, because they should come up with a standard thats encompassing that in a workflow, if thats the case.

- tell that @Light Illusion , because although he has always championed how valuable and needed "perceptual matching on white" is, on the LG OLEDs for him its now mostly desaturating low luma colors, because the LG Panels show huge errors there, and that is not at all anything that would need "perceptual matching on white" to address. (In fact you only can "touch it" with a 3D Lut.)

I dont say "its right to do it" or "its the wrong thing to do", I say most of you in here are not using rational criteria for why it is needed, but just use it to sell product/services, by saying its there (/compensation needed) - or its not there (/compensation not needed), however it best fits your business model, even willing to change on a whim, wether it is an issue or not - while at the same time not being interested at all, that f.e. ISF standards should change to integrate the actual findings.

Its the same thing as Calman including a white point correction FOR ONE TV, without feeling the nead to look into if it would be needed for any other TVs - where the manufacturer isn't handing them a white point adjustment on a piece of paper and saying, hey - include that, the standard is broken.
ISF is not a standard governing body so how can they make a standard? Why do you continuously think everything done here is to make a dollar? You have an incredible amount of ill will.
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post #145 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 02:58 AM
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harlekin

Do you never read anything in full, digest it, and assess what is being said?
You seem to skip-read, and then just fly off the handle making wild accusations, with no alternative suggestions put forward.

It makes it impossible to take anything you say seriously at all...

To be honest I just skip you posts, as they never contain anything that is of any benefit to anyone attempting to suggest potentially viable solutions.



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post #146 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 04:38 AM
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@Light Illusion : Dont make wild accusations that you cant prep up.

Light Illusion is now in heavy damage control mode, because he switched from "oh, this metamerism failure problem is so bad on OLEDs, we had all our customers adher to our custom visual matching workflow" (that he doesnt share to make more money on it) to - "oh well, we mostly just desaturated low luma colors, because all OLEDs have an issue there".

Which one is it? Also, you still havent commented on the white point target you guys came up with and how close it is to the two that are mentioned in here.

Not sharing any data and flip flopping in regards to "what is needed to get visual matches on current OLEDs" is all that you have contributed to the discussion.

Stop assassinating my reputation and actually present a congruent statement for once.

Also: The "viable solution" stuff you just ended with, is fluff. There isnt any that doesnt require the measurement of your (as in your own) individual CMF (as Chad B touched on). The stuff you are selling ("visual matching workflow") is highly questionable. And the stuff that would work is not a workable solution in the field (as Chad B has stated in here).

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post #147 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 04:42 AM
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You reputation doesn't need any assassination - you are proving more than capable of doing that all yourself...
Please read the information we provide, and actually attempt to understand it.
All the information you need is there, and at no point does any of it contradict itself.
You are the only one dong that.

I agree fully with Tyler - propose something yourself...

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post #148 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 04:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harlekin View Post
...snip...
- At the same time two groups were forming in here, one saying perceptual white point adjustments were very much needed, one saying they werent needed at all - on said 2016/17 OLEDs. On which I refused to choose sides (I really dont know which one is correct, because I dont have a perceptual test laboratory with 50 test subjects in my backpocket), and just emphasized that the difference between the two proposals was huge. (In terms of dE.)
Let me add some details here. We have 3 jeti 1211 users who say that alternate white points aren't needed on LG OLEDs because whites look pretty much like plasma whites or D65 on a optical comparator. Everybody else using spectros other than jeti 1211s saying you do, including Tyler with the Koni Minolta spectrometer. Now either the 1211 is doing something right that the others aren't or maybe its got something wrong that through some fluke corrects the error. With that said, I recall Chad saying that he did see differences when using his 1211 to calibrate LEDs....which sounds to me that there is some internal errors or design features that favors OLEDs but not LEDs.

I do think if you gave the 3 jeti 1211 users other spectrometers, they'd draw the same conclusion about needing an alternate white point for LG OLEDs. The alternative is that all three and only these three that happen to use 1211s have the identical observer metameric failure....and that is so unlikely.

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post #149 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 04:54 AM
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You reputation doesn't need any assassination - you are proving more than capable of doing that all yourself...
Please read the information we provide, and actually attempt to understand it.
All the information you need is there, and at no point does any of it contradict itself.
You are the only one dong that.

I agree fully with Tyler - propose something yourself...

Steve
My proposal always was to share data, not believes. You didnt provide any so far - and I dont like that. You are maybe the single most dominant proponent of the "lets fix this by visual matching on white" theory, and havent once provided a whitepoint yourself.

Hows that for a contradiction.

I want to know, why this is a topic its proponents are only talking about in regards to (W)OLEDs, when at the same time (and I just measured it, from marketing data, but nevertheless...), Samsung QLEDs have narrower cones on all three primaries (= more prone to color metamerism failure), and all people are coming up with at any point in time as "mitigation strategies" is adding 8-10% more blue and calling it a day -

that is whithout acknowledging the stark differences between RGB OLED (Sony) and WOLED cone design.

If a "solution" to a wide spread issue is only ever discussed about on the maybe most unlikely (to be affected) of displays this generation, two people are coming up with widely differing white targets after visual matching, and the most vocal proponent for the method doesnt share his white targets at all -- thats a "solution, and everything you need to know" for you?

Then you suddenly switched to "well, most of what we corrected actually was low luma color failures, you people will never be able to with greyscale, lol" - and expect this to be overlooked?

You are the professional who made this his career, right?

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post #150 of 168 Old 08-15-2017, 05:24 AM
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Read the actual information we have provided.
Stop responding to your own variation on that.

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