Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 168 Old 06-24-2017, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs?

As the subject line states, I'm looking for an alternate white point for the 2016 LG OLEDs in x,y format.


Summary:

Thought I'd put up a summary of what some of our members came up with to save reading time for someone new to this thread.

WiFi-Spy (Tyler Pruett of SpectraCal) using a 2017 LG E7, came up with a x: .3073, y: 3214

D-Nice (Dwayne Davis) used LG 2016 and 2017, Sony 2017. Differences are due to antireflective coatings. The 25% pattern size is an add on of mine as that what worked best for me given my peak white target.

Note that there is a difference between Tyler's and Dwayne's 2017 LG OLED white points. I'd suggest you try both and stay with the one you like best. I can say that Dwayne's LG 2016 alternate white point looks very good on my 2016 LG 65B6P.
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post #2 of 168 Old 06-26-2017, 12:22 PM
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White point for most video should be D65. In any case settings from one TV will not necessarily work for another of the same model. However I may not be understanding your question correctly.

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post #3 of 168 Old 06-26-2017, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
As the subject line states, I'm looking for an alternate white point for the 2016 LG OLEDs in x,y format.

Anyone find something that works for that year's model......or for that matter, if there is enough manufacturing tolerance where using someone else's white point settings won't really work.
Jim,

I should be able to give you one no later than tomorrow.
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post #4 of 168 Old 06-26-2017, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
White point for most video should be D65. In any case settings from one TV will not necessarily work for another of the same model. However I may not be understanding your question correctly.
He wants an alternate white point since all OLEDs suffer from metameric failure.
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post #5 of 168 Old 06-26-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
He wants an alternate white point since all OLEDs suffer from metameric failure.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
White point for most video should be D65. In any case settings from one TV will not necessarily work for another of the same model. However I may not be understanding your question correctly.
There is an approach a majority of professional post-production studios use for the calibration of their grading OLED displays to counter the known issue of Metameric Failure.

The approach has been developed by Light Illusion in partnership with the professional display manufacture Flanders Scientific Inc. (FSI).

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/percept...our_match.html

FSI have their own PDF with the same information here: http://flandersscientific.com/index/...htSpaceCMS.pdf

While the instructions are written for LightSpace CMS, as that is what FSI use for all their factory calibration, the basic information will work with any calibration system, like HCFR,CalMAN etc.
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post #6 of 168 Old 06-26-2017, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Jim,

I should be able to give you one no later than tomorrow.
Thanks D

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post #7 of 168 Old 06-28-2017, 03:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
+1



There is an approach a majority of professional post-production studios use for the calibration of their grading OLED displays to counter the known issue of Metameric Failure.

The approach has been developed by Light Illusion in partnership with the professional display manufacture Flanders Scientific Inc. (FSI).

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/percept...our_match.html

FSI have their own PDF with the same information here: http://flandersscientific.com/index/...htSpaceCMS.pdf

While the instructions are written for LightSpace CMS, as that is what FSI use for all their factory calibration, the basic information will work with any calibration system, like HCFR,CalMAN etc.
Thanks for posting Ted.

Something that has me a bit puzzled is with all the OLED calibration reports posted, you don't see anything mentioned about alternate white points. The puzzle is do all these people not see the lack of blue in content (mostly shown in yellowish faces) or does it vary so much that its only for a few people like me that see it???? The alternate theory is that people rely too much on calibration reports and don't look at content.

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post #8 of 168 Old 06-28-2017, 07:56 AM
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Jim,have you tried the judd/voss white point (it starts off low @ ire 5 and increases towards ire 100 by adding blue) if it's to much try half of it,got my gear boxed up so cant check myself until weekend.
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I have a question concerning the procedure outlined by ConnecTEDDD. If you change the white should you not also change the red, green and blue points also? I know that these are much more difficult to change.

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post #10 of 168 Old 06-28-2017, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
Jim,

I should be able to give you one no later than tomorrow.
Jim,

Update.... will have it for you tomorrow evening.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Thanks for posting Ted.

Something that has me a bit puzzled is with all the OLED calibration reports posted, you don't see anything mentioned about alternate white points. The puzzle is do all these people not see the lack of blue in content (mostly shown in yellowish faces) or does it vary so much that its only for a few people like me that see it???? The alternate theory is that people rely too much on calibration reports and don't look at content.
The problem the majority of people do not keep a reference CRT/Plasma/CCFL LCD (yes LED LCD is impacted too) on hand or they ignore/discard the color differences that crop up when different display tech are side by side. I can say that I was guilty of this during 2014 and prior Flat Panel Shootouts. Kevin, David and myself would say LCDs had the "LCD blue backlight look" compared to plasmas when it was actually metameric failure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
Jim,have you tried the judd/voss white point (it starts off low @ ire 5 and increases towards ire 100 by adding blue) if it's to much try half of it,got my gear boxed up so cant check myself until weekend.
Judd Voss does not work well on LG WRGB based OLEDs.
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Does anyone have an alternate white point for 2016 LG OLEDs?

I should unpack our Sony Broadcast CRT, calibrate it and perceptually match the LG to that. I may be able to do it on Friday and post my results back in this thread.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Thanks for posting Ted.

Something that has me a bit puzzled is with all the OLED calibration reports posted, you don't see anything mentioned about alternate white points. The puzzle is do all these people not see the lack of blue in content (mostly shown in yellowish faces) or does it vary so much that its only for a few people like me that see it???? The alternate theory is that people rely too much on calibration reports and don't look at content.
Funny but after reading this thread I noticed the yellowish faces on my b6 65 too. Even the grayscale seems to have a green/yellowish hue even though the readings say it’s good. I feel like I've calibrated it so many times because it never seems to look right. Granted I'm using an display pro 3 profiled to an I1 pro so not as accurate as a jeti or anything professionals use. But it seemed to worked fine on my Kuro. Either way last night I tried doing a basic 2 points calibration with a white point X 0.3118 and Y 0.3215. I wanted to try a 2 point to see what it would look like before going to a full 20 point calibration. The lower and mid grayscale seem to look much better and more in line with my Kuro but not quite there. The upper grayscale looked a little more red, not terrible but just noticeable. I don’t think that white point is completely correct but I think perceptually matching will be the way to go when calibrating these oleds. I haven’t had a chance to put the Kuro right next to the oled to do a match but hopefully I will soon. In the meantime it will be interesting to hear what white points D-Nice and WiFi-Spy come back with after doing it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
I should unpack our Sony Broadcast CRT, calibrate it and perceptually match the LG to that. I may be able to do it on Friday and post my results back in this thread.
Looking forward to seeing your results.
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post #16 of 168 Old 06-29-2017, 04:16 PM
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My testing is complete

Methodology:

CRT 19" Sony PVM

OLED 55" 2017 LG E7

Let both displays warm up for 1 hour

Calibrated CRT to D65 (1931 CMF) and 100 nits peak luminance using a Konica Minolta CS2000A Spectroradiometer which we just got back from being recalibrate on June 20th 2017.

Calibrated LG OLED to D65 (1931CMF) and 100 nits.

The result was the LG OLED visually had yellowish tint to the white test patch as compared to the CRT.

I then perceptually matched by eye the LG OLED to the CRT using the RGB Gain/High controls on the LG.

When I felt the match was as close as I could get, I had 3 other people in our office look at the patches, and they all agreed that they matched.

I then measured the white point of the LG OLED using the CS2000A (1931CMF)

Results: LG OLED White Point to Match CRT: x: .3073 y: .3214
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post #17 of 168 Old 06-29-2017, 06:04 PM
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Wifi-spy. Can you repeat procedure with i1pro/i1pro2? I know they're not quite reference quality, but if you measure both the CRT and OLED (whitepoints have already been set with a cs2000a), we'll at least get a relative difference, which might prove useful in one way or another.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
Wifi-spy. Can you repeat procedure with i1pro/i1pro2? I know they're not quite reference quality, but if you measure both the CRT and OLED (whitepoints have already been set with a cs2000a), we'll at least get a relative differences, which might prove useful in one way or another.
If you're using Calman, there is a place to enter these values. It will change the targeted white point which should be a lot easier than taking x,y measurements and manually adjusting them each time you take a reading.
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post #19 of 168 Old 06-29-2017, 08:16 PM
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I appreciate friendly heads up, but I wasn't asking about that.
Keyword is "relative".
I'm curious how *relative* close a 10nm instrument is compared to a reference instrument. A lot of us use these cheaper instruments, so it could be interesting to see if the relative differences would be skewed because of the limited resolution of the i1 meters. I'd like to know if I should get a Jeti, or if the i1 is good enough for the time being.

If we ever get to a RGB OLED/QLED type display that can do 10.000 NITS @ Full BT.2020 gamut, then we for sure need better meters than the "budget" i1pro/i1pro2 spectros. Question is, is the difference somewhat negligable, at the current WRGB @ approx DCI-P3 gamut?
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Sorry for missing your point. I do think given my experience with two new i1pro 2s, the bigger question has to be how accurate is your specific i1pro 2? Without trying to overthink the problem, I'd try the new coordinates, do a grayscale calibration, put up a 20 point split grayscale and see how neutral it looks. Given the variability of these meters, you won't know until you try.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
+1



There is an approach a majority of professional post-production studios use for the calibration of their grading OLED displays to counter the known issue of Metameric Failure.

The approach has been developed by Light Illusion in partnership with the professional display manufacture Flanders Scientific Inc. (FSI).

See: http://www.lightillusion.com/percept...our_match.html

FSI have their own PDF with the same information here: http://flandersscientific.com/index/...htSpaceCMS.pdf

While the instructions are written for LightSpace CMS, as that is what FSI use for all their factory calibration, the basic information will work with any calibration system, like HCFR,CalMAN etc.
I have a calibrated laptop screen, so I brought it into my living room and put it next to the OLED. A white window pattern on the laptop was a pretty close visual match to the OLED, which I calilbrated with and i1D3 in raw mode. If anything, the OLED looked just slightly warmer. The difference was not nearly as pronounced as in the photos on the Light Illusion website. Using the OOTB settings, comparing the two screens looked more like that website; the OLED was greener/cyan.
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post #22 of 168 Old 06-30-2017, 07:35 AM
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Looks like it's time for someone to bring back the old-school optical comparators!

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post #23 of 168 Old 06-30-2017, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overrid3 View Post
The difference was not nearly as pronounced as in the photos on the Light Illusion website.
The screens shown on the Light Illusion website compare a professional RGB OLED to a professional LCD.
The RGB OLEDs are very different animals to the WRGB home TV OLEDs.

WRGB OLEDS are very close to the standard D65 white point by comparison.

Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
The screens shown on the Light Illusion website compare a professional RGB OLED to a professional LCD.
The RGB OLEDs are very different animals to the WRGB home TV OLEDs.

WRGB OLEDS are very close to the standard D65 white point by comparison.

Steve
Interesting, thanks.
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post #25 of 168 Old 06-30-2017, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post
Thanks for posting Ted.

Something that has me a bit puzzled is with all the OLED calibration reports posted, you don't see anything mentioned about alternate white points. The puzzle is do all these people not see the lack of blue in content (mostly shown in yellowish faces) or does it vary so much that its only for a few people like me that see it???? The alternate theory is that people rely too much on calibration reports and don't look at content.
Hi Jim, the issues with colors, it's not the grayscale responsible for this (or custom white point), the skintones shades are very far for grayscale or any CMS adjustment you do with limited CMS internal controls, so even the grayscale will be perfect the skintones can be red-ish or yellow-ish. As yo know from first hand; these errors can be corrected via 3D LUT.

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dschlic1 View Post
I have a question concerning the procedure outlined by ConnecTEDDD. If you change the white should you not also change the red, green and blue points also? I know that these are much more difficult to change.
Hi, the custom White Point it's only needed, when you will enter your custom White Point then the Luminance of the Primary Colors will be re-caclulated and target luminance for each Primary will re-adjusted based to the new White Point (while the xy cordinates of Primary Colors will not change) and the Secondaries xyY will re-calculated also.

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
The problem the majority of people do not keep a reference CRT/Plasma/CCFL LCD (yes LED LCD is impacted too) on hand or they ignore/discard the color differences that crop up when different display tech are side by side. I can say that I was guilty of this during 2014 and prior Flat Panel Shootouts. Kevin, David and myself would say LCDs had the "LCD blue backlight look" compared to plasmas when it was actually metameric failure.
+1, I have posted about this @ 2014 also, when LightIllussion and FSI wrote some documentation about this procedure here: FSI (Flanders Scientific Inc) Monitors - Perceptual Color Matching Using LightSpace

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi Jim, the issues with colors, it's not the grayscale responsible for this (or custom white point), the skintones shades are very far for grayscale or any CMS adjustment you do with limited CMS internal controls, so even the grayscale will be perfect the skintones can be red-ish or yellow-ish. As yo know from first hand; these errors can be corrected via 3D LUT.
Hi Ted, Yes, it's more than just alternate white point for the B6 but without a good grayscale, we're handicapped working towards accurate color. Considering how this moves the discussion forward, I'm pretty excited.

A big thank you to Tyler Pruitt with Spectracal for determining an LG OLED white point.

Last edited by JimP; 06-30-2017 at 02:06 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post
My testing is complete

Methodology:

CRT 19" Sony PVM

OLED 55" 2017 LG E7

Let both displays warm up for 1 hour

Calibrated CRT to D65 (1931 CMF) and 100 nits peak luminance using a Konica Minolta CS2000A Spectroradiometer which we just got back from being recalibrate on June 20th 2017.

Calibrated LG OLED to D65 (1931CMF) and 100 nits.

The result was the LG OLED visually had yellowish tint to the white test patch as compared to the CRT.

I then perceptually matched by eye the LG OLED to the CRT using the RGB Gain/High controls on the LG.

When I felt the match was as close as I could get, I had 3 other people in our office look at the patches, and they all agreed that they matched.

I then measured the white point of the LG OLED using the CS2000A (1931CMF)

Results: LG OLED White Point to Match CRT: x: .3073 y: .3214
Thanks Tyler

I performed a 20 point grayscale calibration last night using those coordinates. It looks fantastic, right inline with my Kuro. Removed the discoloration in the grayscale that I was getting with my previous calibrations. Really appreciate your hard work on this.
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post #30 of 168 Old 06-30-2017, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by toddrain1 View Post
Thanks Tyler

I performed a 20 point grayscale calibration last night using those coordinates. It looks fantastic, right inline with my Kuro. Removed the discoloration in the grayscale that I was getting with my previous calibrations. Really appreciate your hard work on this.
Nice. Maybe I will give this a try on mine. I've been using an i1D3 (no correction) with HCFR and have been able to get my dEs all under 0.5 or so. However, something still looked a little off about the the picture.

Also, I see he did this comparison with a 2017 OLED. Would the 2016 models be the same?

Last edited by Overrid3; 06-30-2017 at 01:13 PM.
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