2017 HDTVtest TV Shootout | Sunday 13th August in London UK - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 09:50 AM
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This is great an all but what about us normal people who dont have £2000+ to spend on a TV??
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post #212 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by BlockABoots View Post
This is great an all but what about us normal people who dont have £2000+ to spend on a TV??
There's a whole LCD section here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-lc...anel-displays/
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post #213 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 11:46 AM
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thanks
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post #214 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tanman View Post
I specifically mentioned Japan for a reason. I was asking for "quality products" not "quantity competition". It took the U.S. automobile industry more than a 100 years to wake up to what people wanted QUALITY!
Unfortunately you are very wrong. The world is full of instances where convenience and availability wins out over quality. Take the VHS versus Betamax war. Everyone , who knew anything about quality , knew that Betamax was by far the higher quality format. Ask yourself "who won , not only the battle, but the war ? "
I'll give you a clue - It wasn't Betamax.

In this world there is a general dumbing down that means quality often loses out out to convenience, commercial clout and ignorance. Don't try and convince yourself that it is anything but. Unfortunately that is how it works. Another example would be mp3 versus lossless. A no brainer to you and me but which is the most popular format ? / Another clue - It isn't flac !

We enthusiastes must realise that we are in the minority and that we are very fortunate that we are still being catered for. I just hope it lasts.
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post #215 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
Unfortunately you are very wrong. The world is full of instances where convenience and availability wins out over quality. Take the VHS versus Betamax war. Everyone , who knew anything about quality , knew that Betamax was by far the higher quality format. Ask yourself "who won , not only the battle, but the war ? "
I'll give you a clue - It wasn't Betamax.

In this world there is a general dumbing down that means quality often loses out out to convenience, commercial clout and ignorance. Don't try and convince yourself that it is anything but. Unfortunately that is how it works. Another example would be mp3 versus lossless. A no brainer to you and me but which is the most popular format ? / Another clue - It isn't flac !

We enthusiastes must realise that we are in the minority and that we are very fortunate that we are still being catered for. I just hope it lasts.
VHS/BetaMAX same country, I agree BetaMAX was better. HD-DVD/Blu-Ray, I would have preferred the other to win with better up-scaling, same country, I believe. mp3 wins but most products out there support FLAC a great in-road! Go FLAC....

Also I do not agree quality looses out to convenience, clout, and ignorance. Quality catches up quickly in those peoples minds!
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post #216 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tanman View Post
VHS/BetaMAX same country, I agree BetaMAX was better. HD-DVD/Blu-Ray, I would have preferred the other to win with better up-scaling, same country, I believe. mp3 wins but most products out there support FLAC a great in-road! Go FLAC....

Also I do not agree quality looses out to convenience, clout, and ignorance. Quality catches up quickly in those peoples minds!
The point is that the majority rule and the majority do not care about real quality in the same way we enthusiasts do.
If they did the food chain would not be dominated by awful convenience food that bears little resemblance to anything that is remotely palatable. In my lifetime the quality of food sold in the shops has taken a nosedive in deference to convenience. That alone tells me all I need to know about peoples attitude to quality.
How many people listen to their music on a half decent set up ? . How many understand the difference between lossless and lossy ? How many care about the difference ? The answer, sadly, is very few. Mediocrity is King now. We live in a throw away society and that means stuff is disposable and so few really care about it's quality. You can always replace it tomorrow.
If you don't believe me speak to people around you, and I don't mean fellow enthusiasts but just ordinary folks who are not obsessed with AV stuff. You will discover a vast indifference to what we hold dear and not much understanding either and also a very superficial regard towards the quality of what they buy. Yes , they want it to work and function when they press the button and they want an acceptable quality (meaning it shouln't fall apart in the first week) but beyond that they are not willing to put the effort into what we enthusiasts enjoy doing. It is not their priority or their hobby.They have probably got more meaningful things to do with their lives.
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post #217 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post
So how was the metamerism between those chosen panels with reference to the X300? is the panny any different?
"Metamerism" isn't a property of the panels, it a property of your eyes.

There are two aspects to what you are talking about:

1) How much each viewers eyes differ from the standard observer in spectral sensitivity.

2) How much a particular panel's primaries emphasizes or conceals differences between
observers. Generally the larger the gamut of a 3 primary display, the more it
reveals differences between observers.

So a "white point correction" for a display is not some sort if universal shift - it is something
that will be different for each viewer. Some random group of viewers may generally agree with
a particular shift, but there will be other viewers who will disagree.
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post #218 of 254 Old 08-17-2017, 07:28 PM
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Any one with an idea when the shootout video will be posted? I can see at HDTVtest Vincent has two more videos but none on the shootout.
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post #219 of 254 Old 08-18-2017, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
Unfortunately you are very wrong. The world is full of instances where convenience and availability wins out over quality. Take the VHS versus Betamax war. Everyone , who knew anything about quality , knew that Betamax was by far the higher quality format. Ask yourself "who won , not only the battle, but the war ? "
I'll give you a clue - It wasn't Betamax.

In this world there is a general dumbing down that means quality often loses out out to convenience, commercial clout and ignorance. Don't try and convince yourself that it is anything but. Unfortunately that is how it works. Another example would be mp3 versus lossless. A no brainer to you and me but which is the most popular format ? / Another clue - It isn't flac !

We enthusiastes must realise that we are in the minority and that we are very fortunate that we are still being catered for. I just hope it lasts.
I agree and most of the top tier American, Korean and Japanese Technology Brands have manufacturing in China. Economies of scale benefits quantity production of high quality products. iPhone is a quality product - outsourced to Foxconn in China for manufacturing and configuration [apart from Apple chips which are directly made by Apple somewhere].
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post #220 of 254 Old 08-18-2017, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
This is a good description. It should also be noted that LG tone-mapping is aggressive in that when engaged also lowers the picture level, darkening the entire image. LG's algorithm is aggressive dipping below 100 nits but the Active HDR (Dynamic Contrast: Low) mitigates picture level drop for most scenes but restoring the PQ EOTF tracking.

- Rich
Good point.
I know that for HDR material , at least, then Dynamic Contrast set at Low means Active HDR is enabled but Contrast enhancement is disabled but I am unsure what Dynamic Contrast set to Low does to SDR material. Does it then just impart some Dynamic Contrast enhancement without introducing any Dynamic Meta Data ?

I have attachedd a file to explain the role of the different Dynamic Contrast settings but it isn't clear if this only applies to HDR. I do know that Vincent did refer to the production of Dynamic Meta Data, even where no Static Meta Data Exists.

Put another way is it better to have Dynamic contrast set to Low for all content - SDR and HDR or is it best left Off for SDR and Low for HDR ?
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post #221 of 254 Old 08-18-2017, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
Good point.
I know that for HDR material , at least, then Dynamic Contrast set at Low means Active HDR is enabled but Contrast enhancement is disabled but I am unsure what Dynamic Contrast set to Low does to SDR material. Does it then just impart some Dynamic Contrast enhancement without introducing any Dynamic Meta Data ?

I have attachedd a file to explain the role of the different Dynamic Contrast settings but it isn't clear if this only applies to HDR. I do know that Vincent did refer to the production of Dynamic Meta Data, even where no Static Meta Data Exists.

Put another way is it better to have Dynamic contrast set to Low for all content - SDR and HDR or is it best left Off for SDR and Low for HDR ?
We have a lot of data and measurements for SDR and it seems clear that SDR can be calibrated well at different gammas.
Enabling DC for SDR causes inaccaracy so it is to be avoided when accuracy is the goal.

The HDR PQ EOTF that replaces gamma with an fixed luminance that should be acheived for proper display.
Unfortunately, tone-mapping, at some luminance level, deviates to preserve high-light detail.
Active HDR (DC: Low) restores PQ EOTF accuracy for the most part, restoring HDR pop so it should be engaged.

My only quibble with the LG implementation, is that the tone-mapping is

  • that is it based on the static metadata (two identical scenes with different static metadata are not displayed the same), and
  • it is very aggressive (a Tone-mapping option that preserves the PQ EOTF to at least 400 nits, regardless of static metadata, would be ideal)
Also, it would be nice to have more than one HDR 10 mode with white-balance calibration controls.

- Rich

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post #222 of 254 Old 08-18-2017, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
We have a lot of data and measurements for SDR and it seems clear that SDR can be calibrated well at different gammas.
Enabling DC for SDR causes inaccaracy so it is to be avoided when accuracy is the goal.

The HDR PQ EOTF that replaces gamma with an fixed luminance that should be acheived for proper display.
Unfortunately, tone-mapping, at some luminance level, deviates to preserve high-light detail.
Active HDR (DC: Low) restores PQ EOTF accuracy for the most part, restoring HDR pop so it should be engaged.

My only quibble with the LG implementation, is that the tone-mapping is

  • that is it based on the static metadata (two identical scenes with different static metadata are not displayed the same), and
  • it is very aggressive (a Tone-mapping option that preserves the PQ EOTF to at least 400 nits, regardless of static metadata, would be ideal)
Also, it would be nice to have more than one HDR 10 mode with white-balance calibration controls.

- Rich
Thanks for the info Rich. It is much appreciated.

Last edited by alexbarbel; 09-02-2017 at 01:18 AM.
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post #223 of 254 Old 08-18-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by alexbarbel View Post
The point is that the majority rule and the majority do not care about real quality in the same way we enthusiasts do.
If they did the food chain would not be dominated by awful convenience food that bears little resemblance to anything that is remotely palatable. In my lifetime the quality of food sold in the shops has taken a nosedive in deference to convenience. That alone tells me all I need to know about peoples attitude to quality.
How many people listen to their music on a half decent set up ? . How many understand the difference between lossless and lossy ? How many care about the difference ? The answer, sadly, is very few. Mediocrity is King now. We live in a throw away society and that means stuff is disposable and so few really care about it's quality. You can always replace it tomorrow.
If you don't believe me speak to people around you, and I don't mean fellow enthusiasts but just ordinary folks who are not obsessed with AV stuff. You will discover a vast indifference to what we hold dear and not much understanding either and also a very superficial regard towards the quality of what they buy. Yes , they want it to work and function when they press the button and they want an acceptable quality (meaning it shouln't fall apart in the first week) but beyond that they are not willing to put the effort into what we enthusiasts enjoy doing. It is not their priority or their hobby.They have probably got more meaningful things to do with their lives.
Mostly agree. In short quality costs more and most people say flat screen is flat screen, music can be lossy since they don't hear the difference, McDonalds fish is okay rather than Nobu. Be it may, food, music, TVs............

Not everyone can afford the 2017 OLEDs or for that matter 2016s also. Again here to go along with what you are saying "flat screen is flat screen" I'll get one for less than $500 plenty to choose from and picture is awesome!
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post #224 of 254 Old 08-18-2017, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
(a Tone-mapping option that preserves the PQ EOTF to at least 400 nits, regardless of static metadata, would be ideal)
Is there any movement anywhere in the industry to establish best practices or standards for tone mapping?
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post #225 of 254 Old 08-19-2017, 01:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tanman View Post
Mostly agree. In short quality costs more and most people say flat screen is flat screen, music can be lossy since they don't hear the difference, McDonalds fish is okay rather than Nobu. Be it may, food, music, TVs............

Not everyone can afford the 2017 OLEDs or for that matter 2016s also. Again here to go along with what you are saying "flat screen is flat screen" I'll get one for less than $500 plenty to choose from and picture is awesome!
Great points.
There ane a multitude of reasons why people opt for less than top quality and, of course , the Law Of Diminishing Returns (as you point out ) is one of them. There are many, many cheaper TVs than the 2017 OLEDS and a lot of people just don't see the difference or even care if there is a difference. The cheaper, easily available TVs out there are good enough for them. Nothing wrong in that.
For most on this forum I would say if their interest in high quality AV is not linked to their work then it is probably a hobby. We are a weird bunch.
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post #226 of 254 Old 08-19-2017, 03:15 AM
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Is there any movement anywhere in the industry to establish best practices or standards for tone mapping?
ST2390-1 defines tone mapping for PQ HDR, but is a limited definition.
You can visually see the curve with different min/max luma values using the free version of LightSpace CMS.
We also have our own 'Roll-Off' process that has more control, and is favoured by those calibrating HDR via LUT boxes, as you can define the tone mapping very precisely.

Again, you can directly compare the different resulting tone map curves with free demo of LightSpace CMS.
(It does make for interesting comparisons.)

You can also use the free LightSpace CMS to profile any HDR display and directly assess the tone mapping it uses.
(You do need to be able to activate the TVs HDR mode, so may need something like an HDfury if that cannot be done manually.)

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post #227 of 254 Old 08-20-2017, 04:50 AM
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Vincent has posted his results video:


HTH
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post #228 of 254 Old 08-20-2017, 06:41 AM
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Well that was a pretty comprehensive summing up of the scores. Well done Vincent.
Personally I am not too surprised with the end result or with most of the categorises. Before the event I did think the Panny would come out top. It is a very appealing set but for me just too expensive in comparison to the other OLEDs. Gratifying to see my personal choice (The B7) come out top for HDR and to do so without being judged on it's ability to play all of the different flavours of HDR - something the Panny will never be able to do. I honestly do not understand the company's decision there.
Anyway, congratulations are nonetheless due to Panasonic for a well earned victory.
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post #229 of 254 Old 08-20-2017, 06:49 AM
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Rumors of DV on the Panasonic at Ifa
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Xbox live.. xSAMCOx
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post #230 of 254 Old 08-20-2017, 06:57 AM
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Rumors of DV on the Panasonic at Ifa
I believe that Panny themselves have said it is not possible because it is not something that can be implemented by a simple firmware update.
As regards rumours ,Mancheser United (my other chosen poison), were supposed to be signing Ronaldo, Bale ,Neymar and Ronaldo's dog !
I suppose we will have to wait and see.
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post #231 of 254 Old 08-21-2017, 01:55 AM
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Exclamation Recap Post

(I posted this in the other Shootout Thread as well.)

Note: For those who just want to cut through all the back-and-forth discussions/debates/arguments/and BS, I have taken all the relevant info, including all pics and videos, from both Shootout Threads and included it in this one post. I apologize if I have missed anything (or anyone).


UK 2017 TV Shootout

Held at the Harefield Academy in Uxbridge (London, England), Sunday August 13

Spoiler!


Participating TVs (all 65"):

• LG B7 OLED TV (OLED65B7V)

• Panasonic EZ1002 OLED TV (TX-65EZ1002)

• Sony A1 OLED TV (KD-65A1)

• Samsung Q9 QLED TV (QE65Q9F)

• Sony ZD9 LED LCD TV (KD-65ZD9)


Reference/Mastering Monitor:

30" Sony BVM-X300 4K HDR OLED ($30K)


Note: The TVs were all calibrated to 200 nits by "HDTVTest’s" Editor and calibrator Vincent Teoh with assistance from Tyler Pruitt (Portrait Displays) and compared to the Sony reference studio monitor.


Results/Winners:


Best HDR TV: LG B7 OLED

Best Gaming TV: LG B7 OLED

Best Living Room TV: Sony A1 OLED

Best Home Theater TV: Panasonic EZ1002 OLED

Best Overall TV of 2017: Panasonic EZ1002 OLED

Winner!: OLED TVs (Sorry LCD TVs )


Scoring:

Spoiler!


Individual Category Scores:

Spoiler!


Overall Award Scores:

Spoiler!


LINK to the Flat Panel HD Article:

>OLED took home all awards at HDTVTest's annual TV shootout<




LINK to the AVS Shootout Thread:

>UK 2017 HDTVtest TV Shootout<


LINK to Mark's Article (& Thread):

>HDTVtest 2017 TV Shootout: Panasonic EZ1002 OLED Takes Top Prize<


Here are 2 great posts from one of the attendees @RobertR1

[POST #1 l POST #2]

And here's one from another attendee @ARROW-AV [LINK]


Keeping Things in Perspective

Spoiler!


Shootout Pics:

Spoiler!


YouTube Videos:



Special thanks to "HDTVtest"; retailer "Crampton & Moore"; "Vincent Teoh"; @WiFi-Spy ; @ARROW-AV ; @RobertR1 ; and all other participants, judges, and attendees.


Richard
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post #232 of 254 Old 08-21-2017, 08:05 AM
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With LG OLED B7/C7 recognised as such outstanding VALUE, it is a wonder why would anyone would buy any other TV. £2000 for 55inch models in UK now and maybe £1800 Black Friday.

Unless ofcourse you have a mountain of money and can pay for calibration - then the Panasonic seems to be ideal. But the Calibrator needs to know what they are doing.
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post #233 of 254 Old 08-21-2017, 10:34 AM
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But the Calibrator needs to know what they are doing.
That's no problem. I live within the area of the country that Vincent travels to

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post #234 of 254 Old 08-23-2017, 11:02 AM
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I am curious what the LG scored in terms of contrast. I imagine the contrast is pretty much near identical to the A1E

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post #235 of 254 Old 08-24-2017, 06:56 AM
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How does LG compare to Sony on compressed content such as 720p streaming?

I know Sony does a great job based on two very effective noise reduction features and also smooth graduation which effectively removes false contours.

As i have no experience with LG, hopefully this was also considered in the shootout.

Any opinions please.
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post #236 of 254 Old 08-24-2017, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
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How does LG compare to Sony on compressed content such as 720p streaming?

I know Sony does a great job based on two very effective noise reduction features and also smooth graduation which effectively removes false contours.

As i have no experience with LG, hopefully this was also considered in the shootout.

Any opinions please.
The Sony handles compressed material better than the LG in that it shows less noise. However the LG seems to have better depth and dimensionality to the image. On balance I would go with the Sony if I was watching a lot of less than pristine content.
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post #237 of 254 Old 08-24-2017, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundizer17 View Post
How does LG compare to Sony on compressed content such as 720p streaming?

I know Sony does a great job based on two very effective noise reduction features and also smooth graduation which effectively removes false contours.

As i have no experience with LG, hopefully this was also considered in the shootout.

Any opinions please.
I did a comparison at a Best Buy (not the ideal location to do it) and what I found was simple:

1. Sony produces less noise mostly noticeable in darker scenes. Bright scenes look nearly identical in terms of cleaning up noise
2. If you looked hard enough, Sony produces better resolution during motion but I found that you had to look for it.

Again, a lot depends on the compression level of the stream you are watching.
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post #238 of 254 Old 08-24-2017, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post
I did a comparison at a Best Buy (not the ideal location to do it) and what I found was simple:

1. Sony produces less noise mostly noticeable in darker scenes. Bright scenes look nearly identical in terms of cleaning up noise
2. If you looked hard enough, Sony produces better resolution during motion but I found that you had to look for it.

Again, a lot depends on the compression level of the stream you are watching.
I would agree with these observations.
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post #239 of 254 Old 09-01-2017, 08:33 AM
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What about manufacturers quality control.

On the LG B7/C7 thread there are so many Customers that are on the 2nd/3rd replacement set due to banding and lack of screen uniformity?
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post #240 of 254 Old 09-01-2017, 09:08 AM
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One would assume then, that the A1E would exhibit the same quality control issues.

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