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post #1 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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LightSpace and different approaches of HDR calibration

Steve from Light-Illusion posted some interesting ideas about LightSpace and different approaches of HDR calibration in another thread. But I think it's better to discuss that in an own thread. I have posted the important parts of the discussion below.

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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
One point worth making is that you can concatenate differe LUTs within LightSpace.
So you can calibrate to UHD Rec20202 2.4 gamma, and than 'add' to that a LUT going from ST2084 Rec2020 to UHD Rec2020.

(Updated to say I have just tested the above, and you actually need to do the ST2084 Rec2020 to UHD Rec2020 LUT first, and then 'add' to that the 'UHD Rec20202 2.4 gamma to display profile' LUT - the order to concatenate LUTs is important!)

Just a thought, as there are many different ways to use LightSpace, as we do not have fixed workflows.

Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Here is a bit more info that may be of interest.

As you (should) know, all HDR material is graded to the P3 colour space.

So, you can 'calibrate' your display to ST2084 P3, which as it is a smaller gamut than Rec2020 will not 'stress' the calibration algorithms within LightSpace as much as attempting to calibrate directly to Rec2020 on a narrow gamut display/projector.

Then you can concatenate that calibration LUT with a simple P3 to Rec2020 colour space conversion LUT.

You may get better end results with that approach.
(Just test the concatenation order to get it right!)

Steve

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post #2 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 11:24 AM
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Part of the reason for discussing this is an issue I have with creating a BT.2020/ST.2084 LUT (posted in the Radiance Pro thread)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
The problem I have with the LightSpace BT2020/ST.2084 LUT is, that the greyscale is slightly off. That means I always have to make some adjustments in the Radiance Gamma Equalizer afterwards. The "UHD Rec2020" LUT with Gamma 2.4 has a much better greyscale.
As I haven't heard of concatenation before, I wonder how this works in LightSpace. What do I have to do? Is an HTL license sufficient?

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post #3 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
As I haven't heard of concatenation before, I wonder how this works in LightSpace. What do I have to do? Is an HTL license sufficient?
Yes, any LightSpace licence can Concatenate LUTs.
It's actually a very powerful function of LightSpace, and is described in the User Guides, but is probably not obvious enough.
I'll add some specific info to the HDR Calibration Guide!

http://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html

Give me a while, and it will be updated later today - at the end of the page.

Steve

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post #4 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 01:15 PM
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Ok - update to the HDR Calibration User Guide has been added.
Probably has some typos, etc., as it's late here (and I've had a glass of Red or two) so please flag up any errors.
And do ask any additional questions too!

Steve
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post #5 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 01:59 PM
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Thank you Steve.

Just to make sure I have understood the basics, I have two screenshots for this procedure.

In the first step I select ST2084_Rec2020 and for the ST2084 Parameters I choose my preferred projection multiplyer and screen max luminance as measured in the Display Profile. As Destination Colour Space I select UHD Rec2020. I create the LUT using Fix Chroma.

In the second step I select UHD Rec2020 as Source Colour Space and my Display Profile as Destination Colour Space. I choose Fix Chroma (again?) and select Apply to the Data under Use Existing.

Would this be the correct method?

Enjoy your Red.
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File Type: jpg 2nd_step.JPG (51.3 KB, 31 views)

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post #6 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 02:25 PM
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There is nothing wrong with the two steps, but as you are doing a 'same' colour space in step one it makes no difference what process you use.
Peak Chroma would be ok.
For the second step, Fix chroma is correct as the target colour space is a lot bigger than the display's native space.

But, I'd do P3 as the interim space, as describe in the info I've added to the Light Illusion website.
That is a key part of the potential of concatenating LUTs.

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post #7 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 02:45 PM
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I just checked the RGB balance using this method. And it is really good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
But, I'd do P3 as the interim space, as describe in the info I've added to the Light Illusion website.
That is a key part of the potential of concatenating LUTs.
But the P3 preset doesn't have 6500K as white. Would I have to create a custom preset with 6500K?

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post #8 of 28 Old 08-12-2017, 02:56 PM
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One of the things we are guilty of is 'assuming' our users are all 'professional'.
That's because our main market, and where we came from, is the professional Film & TV industry, where our users tend to be high-end with respect to colour knowledge and experience.

We forget home users are unlikely to be so knowledgeable - and I apologise for that!

Regardless, I'm please you are liking the options for LUT concatenation.
It really does have a lot of potential.

And as for P3 white point, yes, you can make a new P3 colour space with a D65 white point.
I've added that info to the 'guide'.

Steve

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post #9 of 28 Old 08-13-2017, 05:03 AM
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I noticed that concatenation results in a slightly different 1D LUT than a direct conversion.
To illustrate this, I put two curves into a single chart.

black = ST.2084 Rec2020 6x to Display Profile
red = ST.2084 Rec2020 6x to P3 D65 to Display Profile
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post #10 of 28 Old 08-13-2017, 08:39 AM
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Hi,
Try "FIT" instead of "FIX" for both conversions.
Then the curves are the same for me. Only the numbers are very small differences.

However, I also have such differences when I am not using the function "Use Existing", but the "ADD function" from the LUT manipulation.
The two functions differ unambiguously.

If the RGB balance improves, is very interesting, but I do not want to run into the cellar today and measure.

Peter

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post #11 of 28 Old 08-13-2017, 12:44 PM
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You are right. When I use FIT for all conversions, the 1D LUT is identical. But it also seems that the 3D LUT is identical.
If that's the case then converting "ST.2084 Rec2020 6x to P3 D65 to Display Profile" doesn't really make sense any more.

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post #12 of 28 Old 08-13-2017, 02:08 PM
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LightSpace performs Volumetric Calibration.
Which is to say is has no concept of Grey Scale as being any different to any other point with the volumetric colour space.
All points are treated equally.
So yes, different processes will generate subtly different results, depending on the process steps you choose to attain the final end result.
You will need to test the different options, and then perform a verification on the calibration result to define what is best for your particular display.
When you are calibrating to a colour gamut that is far larger than the display's capabilities, combined with an excessive gamma, as with the PQ HDR, EOTF, the end calibration is something of a variable. And the concept of tone mapping is an obvious 'variable'.

Hope that helps.

Steve

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post #13 of 28 Old 08-13-2017, 02:25 PM
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Thank you for pointing this out.
Then I'll try to reduce the projection multiplyer to compensate the effect.

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post #14 of 28 Old 08-14-2017, 12:08 PM
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I've added more info to the HDR Calibration User Guide, at the end of the page.
http://www.lightillusion.com/hdr_calibration.html
It explains more about the way you can used LUT Concatenation for end calibration.
Hopefully it will spark other thoughts on the different possibilities LightSpace offers with its 'no workflow' approach to calibration.
(While this is description is aimed at HDR calibration it actually holds true for any displays, including SDR)

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post #15 of 28 Old 08-15-2017, 01:27 AM
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I'll add this comment too with respect to OLED calibration - HDR and/or SDR (previously posted on a different thread).

One of the 'tricks' we have often employed when calibrating OLED displays is to artificially reduce the saturation in the low-light region, to better match the 'look & feel' of more traditional displays.

OLED is the few display technology that maintains full gamut (saturation) all the way done to near black.
This does have a real impact on the perception of the viewed image, and it is very interesting to see how matching this the more 'normal' response of CRT, LCD, displays helps with the viewer's perception of the displayed image.

There is also some logic to this, as human perception of 'colour' drops rapidly with a drop in scene brightness.

It would be interesting to get feedback from users that give this approach a try.

For users with the LUT manipulation tools, you can easily perform such a desaturation directly on the LUT using the Mono Blend tool: http://www.lightillusion.com/lut_manual.html#mono-blend
For those without those tools you can use the LUT Image approach, via Photoshop or similar: http://www.lightillusion.com/lut_image.html

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post #16 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 11:49 AM
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For those playing with this 'alternative' approach, we have a new Beta version of LightSpace with a totally new Fix Chroma process.
Using that on its own should produce some interesting results.

If you're interested in testing, drop ConnecTEDDD (2 or three D's?) a message.

We would love to hear your feedback.
This is 'beta', so there may be issues, but with luck the results should be interesting.

Steve

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post #17 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 12:57 PM
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Hi,

I just made some quick tests without uploading the LUTs.
The results are indeed interesting.
Looking at the graphs, there seems to be no difference between a direct conversion to ST.2084/Rec2020 and a conversion with an intermediate colour space. In that case this approach isn't necessary any more (I still have to check the RGB balance to be sure).
But I noticed that the 1D curve was smoother at the lower end using the "old" Fix Chroma. This was always a difference to Fit Chroma.
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File Type: jpg lut_fix_beta.JPG (110.6 KB, 10 views)

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post #18 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 01:08 PM
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That result says you have bad probe readings in the low-light levels.
The old Fix Chroma basically ignored them, as it simplified the profile readings.
The new Fix Chroma will try to use what is sees as valid readings.

Now is time to assess the actual profile to see what the readings are.
I suspect issues.

What can be done about them is another question...

Steve

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post #19 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 01:23 PM
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I attached it.
It wouldn't surprise me if there are bad probe readings in the low-light levels as I don't have a high-end meter available.
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Interesting...
You seem to be suffering from the 'Fake' readings that have been discussed elsewhere.
The Luma readings for low black patches looks potentially valid, but the xy chroma is fake.
You can see that on the CIE charts, where you have readings well outside the display's gamut.
What probe settings are you using?
You may do better with longer integration times.

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post #21 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 01:38 PM
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It's an i1 Display Pro OEM (OE-11.A...)
Integration time: 1sec
Display Type: BURST
Calibration Settings: Projector, Average Low Light Measurements

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post #22 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 01:51 PM
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Yeah - increase Integration time - 3 seconds?
And potentially try CRT mode.

Or better still, get a CR-100 or K10-A!

The JVC blacks are very low, and the i1D3 struggles there...
(It is also a very unstable technology so a Quick Profile is never going to be that good)

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post #23 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Yeah - increase Integration time - 3 seconds?
And potentially try CRT mode.
Thank you for your advice. I'll try it.

Quote:
Or better still, get a CR-100 or K10-A!

The JVC blacks are very low, and the i1D3 struggles there...
(It is also a very unstable technology so a Quick Profile is never going to be that good)
I know. *sigh*
But not this year, and it also depends on exchange rates and offer.

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To be fair, using a Quick Profile on such a display is not good either.
You really need to use s full display Characterisation.
You have volumetric issues a Quick Profile cannot overcome.

But, keep an eye on our Forum for info during the IBC Show...

Steve

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post #25 of 28 Old 08-17-2017, 02:28 PM
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I once tried 11^3, which took about 1:45h. And the result (especially RGB balance) was worse than using a Quick Profile.
5-6 hours for a full Characterisation with this meter ... I don't know ...
And even the optimized patch list has plenty of points to measure.
I think I have to live with this at the moment.

But I'll keep an eye on your Forum.

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post #26 of 28 Old 08-18-2017, 12:49 AM
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Hi Steve,

I just thought about integration time. And I don't know if this was asked before.
But would it be possible to make integration time flexible? Could it be arranged that integration time for lower light situations can (automatically via setting) be higher than in brighter situations?

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post #27 of 28 Old 08-18-2017, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
Hi Steve,

I just thought about integration time. And I don't know if this was asked before.
But would it be possible to make integration time flexible? Could it be arranged that integration time for lower light situations can (automatically via setting) be higher than in brighter situations?
That is on our WIBNI list...
I can't promise, but yes, it is a process we want to add.

Steve
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post #28 of 28 Old 08-18-2017, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKlammer View Post
But I noticed that the 1D curve was smoother at the lower end using the "old" Fix Chroma. This was always a difference to Fit Chroma.
You will be very please to know that your profile helped us find a bug that was causing the 'kink' in the LUT at the low end!
We have fixed that, and the result is now 'clean'...
Please mail me directly for a link to the new Beta.

Steve
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