Basiccolor Discus speed and low light capabilities - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 48Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 92 Old 08-31-2017, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Basiccolor Discus speed and low light capabilities

Very little information out there that I can see about this probe and its capabilities for HT calibration use. It represents significant investment (probe cost + Lightspace license upgrade from HTL to HTP). Currently have i1d3 OEM A and Retail B 2016 meters, along with an i1Pro rev D and i1Pro2 (I'm going to be selling at least the i1Pro and perhaps an i1d3 soon).

My own interest is large cube profiling my quite dark capable JVC projector quickly and accurately. My typical reading range is in the 0.003 - 100 nit range for off-screen measures, which is my preference.

My desire would be to be able to accurately profile a 21^3 cube within 2-3 hours, with meaningful measures at all points.

What are the typical reading times for these meters? How dark can they go and return useful data?
bobof is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Any Discus users out there?

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
bobof is online now  
post #3 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 05:36 AM
Member
 
Bloodwound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 37
It's said to be faster and have better low-light capabilities than the i1d3 (except maybe the C6, in which case might have been binned, ~0.002nits). I'd love to have this meter as an "upper class" backup colorimeter
Bloodwound is offline  
 
post #4 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 01:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
-Hitman-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 166 Post(s)
Liked: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Very little information out there that I can see about this probe and its capabilities for HT calibration use. It represents significant investment (probe cost + Lightspace license upgrade from HTL to HTP). Currently have i1d3 OEM A and Retail B 2016 meters, along with an i1Pro rev D and i1Pro2 (I'm going to be selling at least the i1Pro and perhaps an i1d3 soon).

My own interest is large cube profiling my quite dark capable JVC projector quickly and accurately. My typical reading range is in the 0.003 - 100 nit range for off-screen measures, which is my preference.

My desire would be to be able to accurately profile a 21^3 cube within 2-3 hours, with meaningful measures at all points.

What are the typical reading times for these meters? How dark can they go and return useful data?


Contact Steve Shaw at lightillusion.com/Contact, they sell the discus.
bobof likes this.
-Hitman- is online now  
post #5 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Hitman- View Post
Contact Steve Shaw at lightillusion.com/Contact, they sell the discus.
Yes, am aware. Was hoping to garner some user experiences too.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
bobof is online now  
post #6 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 02:47 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,394
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 512 Post(s)
Liked: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
It's said to be faster and have better low-light capabilities than the i1d3 (except maybe the C6, in which case might have been binned, ~0.002nits). I'd love to have this meter as an "upper class" backup colorimeter
The C6 is an i1D3 with the same Min/Max capabilities.

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #7 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 03:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
It's said to be faster and have better low-light capabilities than the i1d3 (except maybe the C6, in which case might have been binned, ~0.002nits). I'd love to have this meter as an "upper class" backup colorimeter
Hi, C6 is a custom branded OEM i1Display PRO, if you compare a same revision of i1d3 OEM with C6...they have exact same hardware and firmware also, except an internal different meter unlocking code, which is different between i1d3 OEM / Retail / C6 or any custom branded OEM like HP DreamColor, NEC SpectraSensor PRO, Quato Silver Haze 3, Wacom Color Manager, Toshiba Picture Analyser 1 (TPA1) and basICColor display SQUID 3....all these are branded OEM i1Display PRO meters.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #8 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 03:52 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Very little information out there that I can see about this probe and its capabilities for HT calibration use. It represents significant investment (probe cost + Lightspace license upgrade from HTL to HTP). Currently have i1d3 OEM A and Retail B 2016 meters, along with an i1Pro rev D and i1Pro2 (I'm going to be selling at least the i1Pro and perhaps an i1d3 soon).

My own interest is large cube profiling my quite dark capable JVC projector quickly and accurately. My typical reading range is in the 0.003 - 100 nit range for off-screen measures, which is my preference.

My desire would be to be able to accurately profile a 21^3 cube within 2-3 hours, with meaningful measures at all points.

What are the typical reading times for these meters? How dark can they go and return useful data?
Hi, probably the i1Display PRO Rev.B with AIO mode can match the speed of Discus; or reduce the speed difference. Expect time difference between the meters of ~10%-15% max.

Only with Klein K-10A you can have ~2H38M for 21-Point Cube with Drift Comp: LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software

I'm expecting CR-100 to require about ~3H (or more) with same settings.
bobof likes this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #9 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 04:13 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
My desire would be to be able to accurately profile a 21^3 cube within 2-3 hours, with meaningful measures at all points.
Hi,

To perform 21-Point Cube, makes more sense when you have 3D LUT Box with large 3D LUT cube size (like eeColor 3D LUT Box or madVR renderer for HTPC users) which both have 65-Point Cube (274625 color points)

So LightSpace from the ~9500 color point measurements it will calculate with advanced interpolation the correction for 65-Point Cube 3D LUT.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #10 of 92 Old 09-01-2017, 09:04 PM
Ips
Member
 
Ips's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 25 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, probably the i1Display PRO Rev.B with AIO mode can match the speed of Discus; or reduce the speed difference. Expect time difference between the meters of ~10%-15% max.

Only with Klein K-10A you can have ~2H38M for 21-Point Cube with Drift Comp: LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software

I'm expecting CR-100 to require about ~3H (or more) with same settings.
Was the 2 hours 38 minutes measured with the Klein using the internal LS patch generator Ted?

Ivan Samuel
Greyscale Solutions
Ips is offline  
post #11 of 92 Old 09-02-2017, 12:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ips View Post
Was the 2 hours 38 minutes measured with the Klein using the internal LS patch generator Ted?
Hi Ivan,

I used DVDO AVLab TPG, Closed Loop, 0.5 sec Extra Delay, 21-Point Cube with Drift Comp. 20 which 9261 patches + 464 drift patches = 9725 measurements.
Ips and Plutotype like this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #12 of 92 Old 09-02-2017, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
To perform 21-Point Cube, makes more sense when you have 3D LUT Box with large 3D LUT cube size (like eeColor 3D LUT Box or madVR renderer for HTPC users) which both have 65-Point Cube (274625 color points)

So LightSpace from the ~9500 color point measurements it will calculate with advanced interpolation the correction for 65-Point Cube 3D LUT.
Thanks. I'm making 17^3 cube + 21pt greyscale combo pairing for the Lumagen 2143. Was trying the reads of 21^3 cube on Steve's suggestion.

The question really is accuracy vs speed. if it can't go quite as quick as I1d3 max speed that would be fine if it was much more accurate for the same reading speed. The Discus spec suggests max 4 readings / sec in high-sensitivity mode; but I can't find any good information about how that translates to useable readings, or how the meter behaves when reading low light patches. I understand pretty well with the i1d3 about these things and the kind of reading time you need at typical patch values to get a good reading.

In fact, I don't even know what controls you have over the Discus reading in Lightspace and what the effect of those controls is.

Edit:
I just found this document:

https://www.lightillusion.com/discus.html
Which says best case read time at 47 nits is 0.9s with 4.3s at 6 nits and 2.2 at 12nits.
What does this look like as a 21^3 profile of a projector going from 50 nits down to 0.003nits?
Averaging those read times makes me think it is probably around 6hrs minimum for a 21^3 cube in that circumstance.
Has anyone got an example profile together with the time to generate that profile?
bobof is online now  
post #13 of 92 Old 09-02-2017, 01:31 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Thanks. I'm making 17^3 cube + 21pt greyscale combo pairing for the Lumagen 2143. Was trying the reads of 21^3 cube on Steve's suggestion.

The question really is accuracy vs speed. if it can't go quite as quick as I1d3 max speed that would be fine if it was much more accurate for the same reading speed. The Discus spec suggests max 4 readings / sec in high-sensitivity mode; but I can't find any good information about how that translates to useable readings, or how the meter behaves when reading low light patches. I understand pretty well with the i1d3 about these things and the kind of reading time you need at typical patch values to get a good reading.
Feeding more data (more measurements) LightSpace color engine can provide better results when the display is problematic and non-linear, but adding eeColor to your Lumagen Input it will improve more the results, when you have a colorspace generated from 21-Point Cube measurements, or from custom color patch sets.

Lumagen has a fixed grid based 17-Point 3D LUT and the 1D LUT table it has its output 1D LUT, so it's not helping when you use it. If it was Input 1D LUT then the results should be better, to been used as shaper 1D LUT, to minimize the job of 3D LUT correction.

If you insert eeColor to your Lumagen Input, setup your player to output 4:2:2 12bit, to have 4:2:2 12bit from eeColor output and set Lumagen input output to 4:2:2 12bit, you will have the less possible processing from Lumagen and output 12bit also.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #14 of 92 Old 09-02-2017, 07:42 PM
Member
 
Bloodwound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, C6 is a custom branded OEM i1Display PRO, if you compare a same revision of i1d3 OEM with C6...they have exact same hardware and firmware also, except an internal different meter unlocking code, which is different between i1d3 OEM / Retail / C6 or any custom branded OEM like HP DreamColor, NEC SpectraSensor PRO, Quato Silver Haze 3, Wacom Color Manager, Toshiba Picture Analyser 1 (TPA1) and basICColor display SQUID 3....all these are branded OEM i1Display PRO meters.
C'mon Ted. Spectracal says it has a custom firmware. And sotti stated it has an adaptive exposure mode. Unless you can't prove that it has the same firmware, then you shouldn't be stating these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
The C6 is an i1D3 with the same Min/Max capabilities.

Steve
I know it's the same hardware.


To both:
If I didn't know this, then I obviously wouldn't name the C6 in the same sentence as the i1dp. Anyways, neither of these things (even if it had the exact same hardware/firmware combination) contradict what I wrote. The C6s I've used have had excellent low light capability, that might be because of specially selected i1d3s and/or because of the adaptive exposure mode.

Just like the new 2000nits OEM model might have been binned. If you believe that, and it seems you do (when reading the thread about the new C6-2000 and/or 2017 OEM model) then it's not a big of a stretch to believe that maybe the C6 have also been binned. You can't just choose to believe X-Rite are doing this on the new 2000nits OEM models, but that Spectracals C6 are not binned just because they are your competitors.
Bloodwound is offline  
post #15 of 92 Old 09-02-2017, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Feeding more data (more measurements) LightSpace color engine can provide better results when the display is problematic and non-linear, but adding eeColor to your Lumagen Input it will improve more the results, when you have a colorspace generated from 21-Point Cube measurements, or from custom color patch sets.
Thanks Ted; slightly off topic; but as you took it there I will reply. I did have EEcolor previously (2 actually, one bought from you and one 2nd hand, for two different displays). Although it is a competent LUT holder and excellent value at current pricing (especially considering it has free software support), and the LUT size is unrivalled for devices supporting HDCP, there were just too many other product annoyances with it as a HT product proposition for me to carry on with it (and believe me, I am geekier than most).

Things that particularly annoyed me:
Horrid on screen logo (can't defeat it, can only change the text next to logo)
Need to dedicate a LUT to passthrough (or re-program it every time you want to profile) as the LUT off function gets reset by HDMI resync.
Software is laughable, having to manipulate file structure for uploads, and upload very slow
Lack of format support (can't even add LUT to SD content).
No LUT or passthrough for FP 3D
No LUT for <720p

Although the LUT size isn't as good, I find the Lumagen product to be far superior in all other aspects.
I think the LUT size of the Lumagen 2143 is probably "good enough" for most displays.
bobof is online now  
post #16 of 92 Old 09-02-2017, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
]
If I didn't know this, then I obviously wouldn't name the C6 in the same sentence as the i1dp. Anyways, neither of these things (even if it had the exact same hardware/firmware combination) contradict what I wrote. The C6s I've used have had excellent low light capability, that might be because of specially selected i1d3s and/or because of the adaptive exposure mode.
I've had 2 OEM i1d3 A's and 2 Retail B's - and there are significant differences in the low light behaviour between the OEM A and the Retail B for like for like meter modes it seems. So I could believe other differences between meters or binning going on.

What isn't clear in your post (and I don't know you, or your calibration credentials, so please don't take this as a slight in any way - it is just a question for clarification) is whether you're saying that you've had excellent low light results on the C6 meter (significantly better than i1d3s you've used) or you are just offering an opinion that the C6s you've seen have what you see as excellent low light performance and you don't have a basis for comparison to the stock i1d3 units?

If you have compared them, which rev / variant i1d3 have you compared to?

Something I'm finding sadly lacking is being able to find other people's calibration / LUT results to be able to compare the kind of performance I'm achieving with my setup and knowing if I'm doing as well as can be expected or whether the gear I've got has a lot left to give and I need to improve technique etc. It seems very few are interested in sharing and discussing their results.
bobof is online now  
post #17 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 12:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
C'mon Ted. Spectracal says it has a custom firmware. And sotti stated it has an adaptive exposure mode. Unless you can't prove that it has the same firmware, then you shouldn't be stating these things.
C6/C6-HDR/C6-HDR2000 can be used from LightSpace/HCFR/DisplayCAL/Argyll CMS using the i1Dispay PRO SDK, recognized as i1Display PRO, so they have exact same firmware (just a different meter unlocking code as I posted above).

If the firmware were different, then obviously it should not possible to be access them from any other software (except CalMAN)

SpectraCAL is not using X-Rite SDK to operate the C6 or i1Display PRO, they have written their own code to operate the meters. So when you write custom code you can give some features to C6 and less features to i1Display PRO, to make the i1D3 to work slower.

Graeme has written it's own code to operate the i1Display PRO (so C6 etc.) from HCFR/DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS.

So SpectraCAL/Graeme have their own code for adaptive exposure modes, both they don't use the AIO mode of Rev.B i1Display PRO.

SpectaCAL has written custom code to operate Discus also, actually there 2 AVSForum users with Discus, both of them have compared the speed of Discus between LightSpace - CalMAN and found that in CalMAN is a lot slower, because in CalMAN is not using the BasicColor SDK but custom code again.

They have both posted that, here:

''My Basiccolor DISCUS has just arrived and i am disappointed with it's performance. The meter itself is said to be much faster than i1 display pro (which is also in my equipment). However, in the tests i did it was completely opposite. I could use i1 display pro with 0.5 sec exposure mode (and with 2 sec LLH) on IPS-LCD to get stable readings and the 21 point run was completed about 30% faster than when using DISCUS with "standard integration time".''

''i'm coming back with measurements. I had an opportunity to compare reading times in Calman to reading times in LightSpace. The second software handles the meter WAY better. I can't imagine Calman without equally good handling. For me, a full time calibrator, the current situation is just inacceptable.''

''Please optimise the speed of the Discus, it's much slower in Calman than in Lisghtspace, I can't see any reason for that.''

I have done my own tests with JETI and Klein, and both are slower in CalMAN than in LightSpace, actually the JETI is about 5-10 times slower, because again CM is not using Klein/JETI SDK, but custom code.

Because I had C6/i1D3 OEM/i1D3 Retail also at past, and hace done a lot of tests, the C6 was faster initially, when C6 has option only for samples (1/3/5 etc...) and i1Display PRO has option only for exposure time in seconds (1,2,3 etc..)....so when these were the only meter options (expect Sync) the C6 was faster, but faster doesn't mean that the repeatability was so great, so you had to use more samples to get more stable results.

Later versions of CalMAN, added to both (i1D3/C6) these 2 options, so i1Display PRO had sample options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
To both:
If I didn't know this, then I obviously wouldn't name the C6 in the same sentence as the i1dp. Anyways, neither of these things (even if it had the exact same hardware/firmware combination) contradict what I wrote. The C6s I've used have had excellent low light capability, that might be because of specially selected i1d3s and/or because of the adaptive exposure mode.

Just like the new 2000nits OEM model might have been binned. If you believe that, and it seems you do (when reading the thread about the new C6-2000 and/or 2017 OEM model) then it's not a big of a stretch to believe that maybe the C6 have also been binned. You can't just choose to believe X-Rite are doing this on the new 2000nits OEM models, but that Spectracals C6 are not binned just because they are your competitors.
I'm not competitor, because I don't work for LightSpace company, I'm calibration (hardcore) enthusiast and I have all solutions here (CalMAN/LightSpace/ChromaPure) to use them any time I want.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #18 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 01:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Things that particularly annoyed me:
Horrid on screen logo (can't defeat it, can only change the text next to logo)
You can change the whole picture, not only the text, you can add your own logo:



See instructions here: http://displaycalibrations.com/files..._Procedure.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Need to dedicate a LUT to passthrough (or re-program it every time you want to profile) as the LUT off function gets reset by HDMI resync.
If you replace the 1D Input/Output LUT's with UNITY, then there no difference between the OFF and Unity @ Active Slot, see there: LightSpace 3D LUT Home Cinema Calibration Software

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Software is laughable, having to manipulate file structure for uploads, and upload very slow
Software designed to work with TruVue VANGO LED projector and eeColor has the 3D LUT Box for that projector, later we found that we can use it for custom 3D LUT uploads. You place one file that LightSpace/DisplayCAL exports to a specific folder, it's not such complex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Lack of format support (can't even add LUT to SD content). / No LUT for <720p
Yes but you can send upscalled SD to 720i/p or 1080i/p from your player or your source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
No LUT or passthrough for FP 3D
Yes, not supporting 3D FP signal, you can use a splitter and a switcher, so to bypass eeColor from your chain and have one cable which will go to your projector.

You install one 1x2 HDMI splitter to your source output....one HDMI will go to the 2x1 Switcher and the other HDMI to eeColor -> Switcher. From the switcher output one cable you will go to projector. If you have a TV, the switcher is not required, just you will use 2 HDMI of the TV.

You can use also HD Fury Intergral if you have UHD player: HDfury Integral...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Although the LUT size isn't as good, I find the Lumagen product to be far superior in all other aspects.
I think the LUT size of the Lumagen 2143 is probably "good enough" for most displays.
Lumagen is 10x more expensive and has 55x times less color points available, for me which 3D LUT Cube size is more important, since I measure 21-Point Cube always, after my comparisons to the same display of 17p vs. 21p a lot of times, the difference of 21-Point 3D LUT is visible with naked eye (at paused frame test), except the classic dE charts comparison.

For the money Lumagen 2143 cost....spending the same money you can get LG 65B7 + eeColor + HD Fury Linker (to upscale eeColor output to 4K), so much money to spend for a 1080p input video processor these days.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #19 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 03:33 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
(very off topic now, but I will answer your points from my point of view:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
You can change the whole picture, not only the text, you can add your own logo:
See instructions here: http://displaycalibrations.com/files..._Procedure.pdf
I am pretty sure that you cannot change the EECOLOR logo portion of the OSD - only what appears to the right of it in the 200x100 pixel area. The logo was the thing that bothered me most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
If you replace the 1D Input/Output LUT's with UNITY, then there no difference between the OFF and Unity @ Active Slot.
I know. But off is not sticky - if HDMI re-sync happens it will re-enable the LUT. So you can't turn it off and expect a successful profile, as anything that causes an HDMI re-sync will re-enable the LUT. So you must either give up a LUT slot permanently to have unity LUT and switch to that before profiling, or re-load a unity LUT into the box before profiling (if you need all 6 LUT slots). One example of how this catches you out - you turn it off, and use madtpg with ATI graphics. When it opens the test image an HDMI resync will happen, which re-enables the LUT. It is an operational "quirk" / "bug" which would be fixed if the product were still active.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Software designed to work with TruVue VANGO LED projector and eeColor has the 3D LUT Box for that projector, later we found that we can use it for custom 3D LUT uploads. You place one file that LightSpace/DisplayCAL exports to a specific folder, it's not such complex.
It's not complicated (I'm a HW and SW engineer...) but it is messy and annoying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Yes but you can send upscalled SD to 720i/p or 1080i/p from your player or your source.

Yes, not supporting 3D FP signal, you can use a splitter and a switcher, so to bypass eeColor from your chain and have one cable which will go to your projector.

You install one 1x2 HDMI splitter to your source output....one HDMI will go to the 2x1 Switcher and the other HDMI to eeColor -> Switcher. From the switcher output one cable you will go to projector. If you have a TV, the switcher is not required, just you will use 2 HDMI of the TV.

You can use also HD Fury Intergral if you have UHD player: HDfury Integral...
You can do all those things, and I know how to do all those things, but they're all a bit hacky and messy. I like being able to correct 3D content without being limited to display controls, but I appreciate 3D is a dying thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Lumagen is 10x more expensive and has 55x times less color points available, for me which 3D LUT Cube size is more important, since I measure 21-Point Cube always, after my comparisons to the same display of 17p vs. 21p a lot of times, the difference of 21-Point 3D LUT is visible with naked eye (at paused frame test), except the classic dE charts comparison.

For the money Lumagen 2143 cost....spending the same money you can get LG 65B7 + eeColor + HD Fury Linker (to upscale eeColor output to 4K), so much money to spend for a 1080p input video processor these days.
For what it is worth, I picked up the 2143 used for <£1000; previous 2021 was £400.

I get your point; for out-and-out performance at 1080p 2D there still is no better solution than the EEcolor; it is a shame that they abandoned the product line but it says something about just how small this calibration market is in the home.

There are people out there who want a car with 4 wheels, a seat, no roof and no radio. I like to listen to the radio in the car...
bobof is online now  
post #20 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 03:41 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,394
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 512 Post(s)
Liked: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
There are people out there who want a car with 4 wheels, a seat, no roof and no radio. I like to listen to the radio in the car...
My car

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #21 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 346
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
My car
I could have guessed... I imagine Ted's has one less seat and dispenses with niceties such as seatbelts :-p
bobof is online now  
post #22 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 04:16 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I could have guessed... I imagine Ted's has one less seat and dispenses with niceties such as seatbelts :-p
Ted's car engine has 65 valve cylinder heads, not only 17V looooooooooooooooooooool ....so it's for racing purposes.
Manni01 and bobof like this.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #23 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 04:27 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
C'mon Ted. Spectracal says it has a custom firmware. And sotti stated it has an adaptive exposure mode. Unless you can't prove that it has the same firmware, then you shouldn't be stating these things.
SpectraCAL saying that C6-HDR2000 has dynamic iris, do you believe that there any mechanical iris inside to a C6 also?

''Advanced low-light handling with dynamic iris to optimize accuracy and measurement speed.''

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #24 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 05:33 AM
Member
 
Bloodwound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
C6/C6-HDR/C6-HDR2000 can be used from LightSpace/HCFR/DisplayCAL/Argyll CMS using the i1Dispay PRO SDK, recognized as i1Display PRO, so they have exact same firmware (just a different meter unlocking code as I posted above).

If the firmware were different, then obviously it should not possible to be access them from any other software (except CalMAN)
Same (or mostly same) functionality doesn't equal same firmware. i1d2 wide gamut models (ie the NEC branded ones for their wide gamut displays) clearly had different firmware, so it's entirely plausible the same could happen to the i1d3. Since you are unable to extract the firmware and compare them bit-by-bit (minus the unlocking code part), there is no real/proven basis for your claims. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, I'm just saying.


Quote:
I'm not competitor, because I don't work for LightSpace company, I'm calibration (hardcore) enthusiast and I have all solutions here (CalMAN/LightSpace/ChromaPure) to use them any time I want.
C'mon Ted, you are clearly affiliated with LI. And I'm pretty sure you haven't paid for your LS license. Work or don't work, there is no doubt that you are biased. I'm not saying it's neccesarily a bad thing, but a spade is a spade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
SpectraCAL saying that C6-HDR2000 has dynamic iris, do you believe that there any mechanical iris inside to a C6 also?

''Advanced low-light handling with dynamic iris to optimize accuracy and measurement speed.''
Doesn't matter what I believe, or what you believe. What matters is the truth and since you can't prove anything nobody can't be certain. Also nowhere in that document is it stated there there's a mechanical iris inside the C6-2000.
randal_r likes this.

Last edited by Bloodwound; 09-03-2017 at 05:36 AM.
Bloodwound is offline  
post #25 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 05:57 AM
Member
 
Bloodwound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I've had 2 OEM i1d3 A's and 2 Retail B's - and there are significant differences in the low light behaviour between the OEM A and the Retail B for like for like meter modes it seems. So I could believe other differences between meters or binning going on.

What isn't clear in your post (and I don't know you, or your calibration credentials, so please don't take this as a slight in any way - it is just a question for clarification) is whether you're saying that you've had excellent low light results on the C6 meter (significantly better than i1d3s you've used) or you are just offering an opinion that the C6s you've seen have what you see as excellent low light performance and you don't have a basis for comparison to the stock i1d3 units?

If you have compared them, which rev / variant i1d3 have you compared to?

Something I'm finding sadly lacking is being able to find other people's calibration / LUT results to be able to compare the kind of performance I'm achieving with my setup and knowing if I'm doing as well as can be expected or whether the gear I've got has a lot left to give and I need to improve technique etc. It seems very few are interested in sharing and discussing their results.
I'm NOT saying the C6 is signifcantly better than the i1d3. I'm saying I've had excellent low-light results [with 2 different C6 pucks]. I haven't felt the need to compare i1d3 (or other OEMs) to the C6, although I have a NEC branded i1d3 (rev B) and have access to a retail unit (Rev B) as well.

What I'm basically saying is that it "seems" the low-light readings of the C6 are very consistent, and similar to other peoples experiences and a couple of reviews as well. It's not impossible that the C6 have been specially selected or have a (even if only slightly) custom firmware. I'm also saying it's inappropriate that Ted and LI always chime in to "educate" people with (potentially fake) "facts", since they are either competitors or affiliated with a competitor. And even then, only when it suits their cause. (C6 are not binned, but the 2017 OEM i1d3 is, where's the logic in that. I'm more inclined that OEM products for their biggest OEM customs have been specially selected, than "random" OEM models are)

Everyone else who are not competitors are of course free to speculate.
Bloodwound is offline  
post #26 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 06:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Light Illusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,394
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 512 Post(s)
Liked: 815
Actually, I can conform Ted paid for his LightSpace license.

Also, see: http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...QuickStart.pdf
(Advanced low-light handling with dynamic iris to optimize accuracy and measurement speed.)
No version if the i1D3 has a dynamic iris.

And the firmware version can be extracted from any i1D3 using a 'structure request' command.
(It is also detailed on the counterweigh - for example Rev.B 02)

Steve

Steve Shaw
LIGHT ILLUSION

Light Illusion is offline  
post #27 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 06:17 AM
Member
 
Bloodwound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 37
I believe you. However he is biased because you are affiliated. I trust Ted (mostly) and he's a great guy, but you just have to play by the rules on a public forum.
I'd be happy to extract the firmware of my C6 and send it to you for comparison to the i1d3 firmware, if you could tell me how. When you've proven it, I would have no problem accepting that fact. (Until proven otherwise, the C6 might still have been binned, though.)
Bloodwound is offline  
post #28 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 06:30 AM
Member
 
Bloodwound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
Also, see: http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/...QuickStart.pdf
(Advanced low-light handling with dynamic iris to optimize accuracy and measurement speed.)
No version if the i1D3 has a dynamic iris.

Steve
Ted stated "mechanical" iris. There is no mention of the word "mechanical" in that document.
For the "dynamic" part: Spectracal could be lying, or they could refer to a proprietary exposure mode that they have taken the creative freedom to call "dynamic iris", or something else. I don't know. Neither does Ted. Or you.

It certainly doesn't prove that the C6/C6-HDR doesn't have a custom firmware or have been binned. Even if Spectracal were caught lying at just about everything, doesn't mean they've lied about the C6 - until proven otherwise.
Bloodwound is offline  
post #29 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 06:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
Same (or mostly same) functionality doesn't equal same firmware. i1d2 wide gamut models (ie the NEC branded ones for their wide gamut displays) clearly had different firmware, so it's entirely plausible the same could happen to the i1d3. Since you are unable to extract the firmware and compare them bit-by-bit (minus the unlocking code part), there is no real/proven basis for your claims. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, I'm just saying.
We are talking for i1D3 here, all EDR tables of i1D3 (or a custom branded OEM i1D3 like C6 are not stored inside to the meter, they are stored to the software installation folder and they are loaded to the instrument after you selecting them from the software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
C'mon Ted, you are clearly affiliated with LI. And I'm pretty sure you haven't paid for your LS license. Work or don't work, there is no doubt that you are biased. I'm not saying it's neccesarily a bad thing, but a spade is a spade.
Before 6 years I was searching the best solution to improve my HT picture, so I bought LightSpace CMS (Full) which were available that time only as Full version (about $4500 priced), it didn't had multiple version per features or per meter categories as now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
Doesn't matter what I believe, or what you believe. What matters is the truth and since you can't prove anything nobody can't be certain. Also nowhere in that document is it stated there there's a mechanical iris inside the C6-2000.
Does the fact that you can operate any C6/HDR/HDR2000 from LightSpace/HCFR/DisplayCAL/ArgyllCMS using drivers of i1Display PRO is not enough for you?

BTW all C6 (C6/HDR/HDR2000) meters have the same serial structure:

SP-yy.r-02.xxxxxx.mm

(SP = SpectraCAL version....(the OEM partner can set whatever letters he want there), yy = short year manufactured, r-02 = hardware revision (A or B) - firmware version (02), xxxxxx = incremental number, mm = month manufactured)

All i1D3 OEM/Retail I have seen (or many serials of C6 I have asked from users to tell me), all they have A-02 or B-02, and '02' is the firmware version.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

Last edited by ConnecTEDDD; 09-03-2017 at 08:22 AM.
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
post #30 of 92 Old 09-03-2017, 07:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ConnecTEDDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,538
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1732 Post(s)
Liked: 2131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodwound View Post
Doesn't matter what I believe, or what you believe. What matters is the truth and since you can't prove anything nobody can't be certain. Also nowhere in that document is it stated there there's a mechanical iris inside the C6-2000.
When we talk for something (C6 optical system) that it has Iris, it can be manual or with moving parts. Manual Iris C6 don't have and also don't have any moving parts inside to be mechanical.


Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
ConnecTEDDD is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Display Calibration

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off