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post #1 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Auto Calibration Black Box?

At Cedia this week a Sony rep described a built-in auto calibration function for their new 385 projector. The purpose of the function was to restore the calibrated picture characteristics as the bulb aged. Obviously they were trying to compete with this inherent advantage of LED and Laser lit projectors. I thought it was really cool and wondered if the concept could be or is being done with a black box or software solution. Here is how he described it:

1. OTB Settings were stored in memory at the factory along with the spectrum(I don't know what the proper term is here) of the bulb.
2. As the bulb aged and on demand the user would press a button and an internal device would directly read the spectrum of the aging bulb, apply the reading against a table, and then adjust the settings to match the OTB picture.
3. The process baseline could be changed to the settings established by a calibration after the bulb had settled in.

Now I know this is not a perfect solution but if it could reset the picture to close to the original without going through an entire calibration then it would change the desireability of the bulb based projector immensely; at least for me anyway.

Not knowing the technical theory behind the whole thing but based on his description I was wondering if this was just an internal version of what the auto-calibration function done on JVC projectors that I have seen mentioned in these forums. If it is that easy then buying a JVC with this function would be a significant value. Can this be done with any projector?

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post #2 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
Not knowing the technical theory behind the whole thing but based on his description I was wondering if this was just an internal version of what the auto-calibration function done on JVC projectors that I have seen mentioned in these forums. If it is that easy then buying a JVC with this function would be a significant value.
Similar in concept, but the JVC requires an external meter (Spyder) to read the current bulb characteristics.

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post #3 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 12:51 PM
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Real calibration is also much more than compensating for changes as the bulb ages. So returning a projector to its original state - depending on how good or bad that was - may not be much to get excited about.

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Any projector is sold un-calibrated, so even they have a feature of white point drift over the time, this will provide an uncalibrated picture same as initially un-calibrated status the device had.

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post #5 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post
Real calibration is also much more than compensating for changes as the bulb ages. So returning a projector to its original state - depending on how good or bad that was - may not be much to get excited about.
Assuming you calibrate the projector while the proctor is fairly new, later as the lamp and panels age, restoring the projector to the original characteristics means the previous calibration will remain valid.

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post #6 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Assuming you calibrate the projector while the proctor is fairly new, later as the lamp and panels age, restoring the projector to the original characteristics means the previous calibration will remain valid.
True that. I was thinking "out of the box" when I said "original".

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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Assuming you calibrate the projector while the proctor is fairly new, later as the lamp and panels age, restoring the projector to the original characteristics means the previous calibration will remain valid.
Does this work in the case of the JVC autocal?
And I guess if it works it surely doesn't matter when you do the manual cal so long as you precede it with the autocal?
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post #8 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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The comments so far indicate that the general idea is valid. I think what Sony is saying they have is some type of numerical table that can be referenced along with the aging bulb reading(from the Spyder like meter) and the calibrated settings that were considered satisfactory when they were made. In their 385 and up projectors this device was inside the projector. Their program then combines all the factors and automatically changes the calibrated settings to reflect the aging bulb resulting in a picture close to the original calibrated one. The OTB concept was simply that it would work for those users who were satisfied with their picture as it came from the factory.

So the question is, is there any program that does this without depending on the projector manufacturer to embedd cooperative function into their projector? If not, seems like a great opportunity for someone. The Sony rep, apparently someone well known by many at CEDIA, insisted that this function in their 385 would bring the picture back to a high 90% of the original calibration. There are a lot of bulb projector owners who are not obsessed with perfection in the picture, like many on this forum, who would pay a reasonable price for something like this. I would be the first in line.

Jack

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post #9 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Does this work in the case of the JVC autocal?
And I guess if it works it surely doesn't matter when you do the manual cal so long as you precede it with the autocal?
Yes, AutoCal builds the "base" from which you do the manual calibration. Assuming you use the same meter for AutoCal every time, the same manual calibration (or external 3D LUT box calibration) will remain valid after subsequent AutoCals, although the luminance will drop as the lamp ages.

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post #10 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
The comments so far indicate that the general idea is valid. I think what Sony is saying they have is some type of numerical table that can be referenced along with the aging bulb reading(from the Spyder like meter) and the calibrated settings that were considered satisfactory when they were made. In their 385 and up projectors this device was inside the projector. Their program then combines all the factors and automatically changes the calibrated settings to reflect the aging bulb resulting in a picture close to the original calibrated one. The OTB concept was simply that it would work for those users who were satisfied with their picture as it came from the factory.

So the question is, is there any program that does this without depending on the projector manufacturer to embedd cooperative function into their projector? If not, seems like a great opportunity for someone. The Sony rep, apparently someone well known by many at CEDIA, insisted that this function in their 385 would bring the picture back to a high 90% of the original calibration. There are a lot of bulb projector owners who are not obsessed with perfection in the picture, like many on this forum, who would pay a reasonable price for something like this. I would be the first in line.
One problem is getting the manufacturers to expose that "cooperative function" (also called DDC) to a third-party company who is making the calibration interface software. Spectracal has had some success building autocal functions into their CalMAN software for certain makes and models of displays and projectors. They and others such as ChromaPure and LightSpace CMS can also create 3D LUTs (Look Up Tables) for Lumagen Radiance video processors and other LUT boxes. This will give a far more accurate calibration than simply manipulating the very limited controls in a display or projector, but along with the increased quality comes increased cost.

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post #11 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Rolls-Royce,

I understand what you are saying. My point is that it would be nice if someone could build something for 80% of the user base. This 80% would be happy with 80% of the function, although it would violate the 80/20 rule. So all you have to do is get in the neighborhood with subsequent adjustments to satisfy 80% of the posters on this forum. But I can see that if you have to rely on the manufacturers to provide DDC info then you can forget it. This function would certainly delay a lot of new purchases. So that is why one would have to subscribe to the old saying that " where there is a will there is a way", in order to make this happen.

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post #12 of 22 Old 09-10-2017, 08:29 PM
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Someone did try to make that solution for the 80% a few years ago. This was an external six-axis CMS box and associated sensor meant to calibrate any type of display. I was a tester for that, and unfortunately, it never worked out. The project more or less died on the vine. It is very hard to do an inexpensive one size fits all solution that works.
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
Yes, AutoCal builds the "base" from which you do the manual calibration. Assuming you use the same meter for AutoCal every time, the same manual calibration (or external 3D LUT box calibration) will remain valid after subsequent AutoCals, although the luminance will drop as the lamp ages.
Does it work well in practice?
I see a few potential issues:
1) The inbuilt manual controls are unit-less. It is conceivable that changing the underlying data from the autocal affects their effect on the unit (e.g. +5 red gain no longer gets you to the same place). For at least older JVC units I understood the CMS etc implementations to be poor.
2) Similar to 1) - this surely only holds for regions of the gamut the autocal measures and fixes. It doesn't take long so I guess it doesn't do very much. Do people get very similar results profiling the projector across the whole gamut after subsequent autocals?
3) Say the JVC aims for something like 1dE difference (I don't know, but I doubt it targets 0dE accuracy). This could be in any direction. If you apply a manual cal over the top. So your calibration may be further away than it was if the correction has moved in the "wrong" direction.
4) The 3 projectors I've used have exhibited colour temperature shift on changing aperture settings, which would be necessary if you wanted to maintain reference brightness. Can you do the JVC autocal at a particular aperture so this is calibrated out?

I don't have practical experience of this, they just sound like issues that might be harder to deal with.

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post #14 of 22 Old 09-11-2017, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
Rolls-Royce,

I understand what you are saying. My point is that it would be nice if someone could build something for 80% of the user base. This 80% would be happy with 80% of the function, although it would violate the 80/20 rule. So all you have to do is get in the neighborhood with subsequent adjustments to satisfy 80% of the posters on this forum. But I can see that if you have to rely on the manufacturers to provide DDC info then you can forget it. This function would certainly delay a lot of new purchases. So that is why one would have to subscribe to the old saying that " where there is a will there is a way", in order to make this happen.
Hi, that feature is not going to add something very useful, since projectors are shipped un-calibrated.

To read the spectrum it will need a spectroradiometer inside the projector. Also it matters more than what it's the output to the customer screen, so any offset internally to the lamp is just for re-adjusting to a known uncalibrated status.

A full grayscale calibration using a i1Display PRO and using a free software (HCFR or LightSpace DPS) can provide far better results, so it will include the environment and customer screen to the correction.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5

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http://www.sonypremiumhome.com/pdfs/...5-brochure.pdf

''After extended periods, color can be automatically calibrated to the original factory condition. There’s no need for extra calibration equipment or cameras; a built-in color sensor stores all the necessary information.''

So you are coming back to un-calibrated factory default status with one button

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
Does it work well in practice?
That depends on one's expectation. I'm sure a re-calibration wil always improve the accuracy further.

Quote:
2) Similar to 1) - this surely only holds for regions of the gamut the autocal measures and fixes. It doesn't take long so I guess it doesn't do very much. Do people get very similar results profiling the projector across the whole gamut after subsequent autocals?
In the context of the current discussion, we're comparing auto calibration with manual calibration. For grey scale, the current JVC projectors actually have 256 points for each colour, way more than what's accessible from the manual calibration interface (12 points). I have no knowledge of the internal CMS, but keep in mind that manual calibration is limited to a single point for each primary colour.
Quote:
3) Say the JVC aims for something like 1dE difference (I don't know, but I doubt it targets 0dE accuracy). This could be in any direction. If you apply a manual cal over the top. So your calibration may be further away than it was if the correction has moved in the "wrong" direction.
In my experience, autocal (using Spyder5) shows some residual errors when checked manually (using i1D3), but the errors are consistent (repeatable) and not random, which is not surprising given that the same algorithm is applied every time.
Quote:
4) The 3 projectors I've used have exhibited colour temperature shift on changing aperture settings, which would be necessary if you wanted to maintain reference brightness. Can you do the JVC autocal at a particular aperture so this is calibrated out?
The JVC autocal stores independent colour temperature settings for 4 different aperture ranges. You can make 4 different calibration runs at different aperture settings (e.g., 0, 5, 10, 15) if you want to cover all apertures.
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post #17 of 22 Old 09-11-2017, 06:45 AM
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@Dominic Chan - thanks for the detail. Sounds like a pretty comprehensive system. Looking forward to my next upgrade!
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post #18 of 22 Old 09-11-2017, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
http://www.sonypremiumhome.com/pdfs/...5-brochure.pdf

''After extended periods, color can be automatically calibrated to the original factory condition. There’s no need for extra calibration equipment or cameras; a built-in color sensor stores all the necessary information.''

So you are coming back to un-calibrated factory default status with one button
I keep reading reviews by various magazines and web sites that seem to be saying more and more that the OTB settings are getting closer to calibrated ones. In fact, I think in a current review Art, from Projector Reviews, said that for most users he saw little need for a professional calibration. Here is a quote from a recent review of the new Sony 885:

"And, more important to my ability to review it, as a rule, Sony projectors need very little adjusting in general. No company sends us projectors closer to being “on the money” picture-wise, than Sony, although some are closer than others.

At least a couple of times we’ve had Sony 4K projectors come in for review that looked so good we didn’t bother to calibrate them, knowing that any errors were slight, some times so slight that they would measure better than some other projectors do post calibration. This Sony is like some of those other Sonys. Not perfect, but close enough for a good review."

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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, that feature is not going to add something very useful, since projectors are shipped un-calibrated.

To read the spectrum it will need a spectroradiometer inside the projector. Also it matters more than what it's the output to the customer screen, so any offset internally to the lamp is just for re-adjusting to a known uncalibrated status.

A full grayscale calibration using a i1Display PRO and using a free software (HCFR or LightSpace DPS) can provide far better results, so it will include the environment and customer screen to the correction.
Since it looks like my idea won't be available any time soon how long would it take to execute a calibration using the equipment and software you recommend above?

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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
I keep reading reviews by various magazines and web sites that seem to be saying more and more that the OTB settings are getting closer to calibrated ones. In fact, I think in a current review Art, from Projector Reviews, said that for most users he saw little need for a professional calibration. Here is a quote from a recent review of the new Sony 885:

"And, more important to my ability to review it, as a rule, Sony projectors need very little adjusting in general. No company sends us projectors closer to being “on the money” picture-wise, than Sony, although some are closer than others.

At least a couple of times we’ve had Sony 4K projectors come in for review that looked so good we didn’t bother to calibrate them, knowing that any errors were slight, some times so slight that they would measure better than some other projectors do post calibration. This Sony is like some of those other Sonys. Not perfect, but close enough for a good review."
Hi, we will need measurements to see how the factory settings are performing, without measurements we can't say if it will need a small or larger adjustment to meet the standards.

Calibration is not that a user like or don't like, it has about following some standards, this is why we use instruments and don't adjust per personal likes.

There unit-per-unit variations also, one unit may require more other less calibration adjustments. Also the instruments a professional calibrator will use will not be the same as a consumer or a review site will use, so even if the consumer meter will say that are all fine, if you will measure with high-end instruments, you may see more errors.

Also the output the projector will have to one screen it may not the say if you projecting at different model screen or brand, so the calibration count this detail also.

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V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
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Originally Posted by JackB View Post
Since it looks like my idea won't be available any time soon how long would it take to execute a calibration using the equipment and software you recommend above?
This is up to each user, how it's his learning curve process, reading/testing/practicing/understanding what to do and how calibration controls work....reading, learning from initial mistakes, all these can improve the users skills and after some days he will have better experience gained.

Initially it will be required a colorimeter (X-Rite i1Display PRO ideally) a calibration disk for the available patterns and a free software like HCFR or LightSpace DPS.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS / CalMAN ColorChecker / HCFR
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, ControlCAL
V/P: eeColor 3D LUT Box - P/G: DVDO AVLab TPG
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #22 of 22 Old 09-11-2017, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
This is up to each user, how it's his learning curve process, reading/testing/practicing/understanding what to do and how calibration controls work....reading, learning from initial mistakes, all these can improve the users skills and after some days he will have better experience gained.

Initially it will be required a colorimeter (X-Rite i1Display PRO ideally) a calibration disk for the available patterns and a free software like HCFR or LightSpace DPS.
Maybe I'll finally get around to trying it.
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