Colorimeter in <1K$ category? - Page 12 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #331 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 07:31 AM
umr
AVS Club Gold
 
umr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 10,136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
I am suggesting not purchasing the Beamer option and using a light stand. You can then just strap the Eye-One Pro to the light stand. The problem with the Beamer mount is that it does not let you use the diffuser which is a huge advantage on front projector applications.

I was offering a lower price initially for the software that made the Eye-One Pro (Design) + DCS combination easily under $1K. I raised the price because of time I was spending answering questions. Many people are looking for the cheapest solution which is not going to be a solution that uses an Eye-One Pro. The GMB Eye-One Pro is one of the most accurate solutions available for those who care about reliable results.
umr is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #332 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Kroot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Estonia
Posts: 308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
/nod

Beamer package is not good - buy Design package and then use/buy photocameras tripod and make holder for it yourself. It will be cheaper.

>Isn't this the "EyeOne Pro (Gretag MacBeth) + DCS software (AccuCal)" option, which is said to be >$1K?

Now EyeOne Design package + AccuCal is little more than $1k, but Bob/me and few others got AccuCal at cheaper price in the beginning.
Kroot is offline  
post #333 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 10:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
drapp1952's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,536
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
To be sort of explicit. the total I come up with for a new Eye-One Design (froogled) and the DCS software is $250 more than the stated limit of this thread. I would factor in Jeff's availability and answering of questions on the forum in making a purchase decision. However, he should be warned that I might ask more potentially dumb questions guilt-free should I buy the software. :)

Dan
drapp1952 is offline  
post #334 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Kroot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Estonia
Posts: 308
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by drapp1952
To be sort of explicit. the total I come up with for a new Eye-One Design (froogled) and the DCS software is $250 more than the stated limit of this thread. I would factor in Jeff's availability and answering of questions on the forum in making a purchase decision. However, he should be warned that I might ask more potentially dumb questions guilt-free should I buy the software. :)

Dan
Dan,

Dont froogle - buy EyeOne Design on eBay.
One seller sells it there every week and its ~$690 total including shipping.
Kroot is offline  
post #335 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 11:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ursa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Inner Loop, Houston
Posts: 5,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by drapp1952
To be sort of explicit. the total I come up with for a new Eye-One Design (froogled) and the DCS software is $250 more than the stated limit of this thread. I would factor in Jeff's availability and answering of questions on the forum in making a purchase decision. However, he should be warned that I might ask more potentially dumb questions guilt-free should I buy the software. :)
Which is why Jeff had stated he raised his prices... Hopefully the calibration forum is taking some load off of his support chores.

Later,
Bill
Ursa is offline  
post #336 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 11:20 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
krasmuzik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: NewPort, VA
Posts: 11,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Ursa

Hopefully the DIYers who wanted a DIY spreadsheet solution because the professional calibration product prices were too high - are realizing that if you want professional support and updates you have to charge accordingly!

$2K calibration packages do not look so expensive anymore do they?!
krasmuzik is offline  
post #337 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 11:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik
Ursa

Hopefully the DIYers who wanted a DIY spreadsheet solution because the professional calibration product prices were too high - are realizing that if you want professional support and updates you have to charge accordingly!

$2K calibration packages do not look so expensive anymore do they?!
Actually, they still look like $2K to me :)

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
RichB is online now  
post #338 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 11:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JohnnyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just paid $2K (CDN) for a ColorFacts 6.0 package. It came with a 'free' SpyderTV, so I thought I'd pull that out of the box and see if it worked with the ColorFacts software. Not only does it work, but ColorFacts identifies it as a Spyder2. I tested both and was surprised to find that they came up with somewhat different results. My eyeballs told me that the Spyder2 was more accurate, but you can probably chalk that up to production variances (which is scary!)

So, seeing that the hardware is the same, this means that the software component of that $2K price represents at least $1700 of that. Yikes!
JohnnyG is online now  
post #339 of 353 Old 10-31-2005, 11:47 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
krasmuzik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: NewPort, VA
Posts: 11,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Search the thread for a reference to the Spyder patent - it has sensor calibration tables built into the firmware. It is my understanding that the DataColor Spyder2 may be the same hardware - but are individually calibrated - vs. the SpyderTV which are all loaded up with the same firmware values regardless of individual sensor variation. So technically the hardware is not the same if you consider firmware to be part of hardware (small distinction anymore - either the calibration is hardcoded with logical gates as hardware or it is looked up with a NVRAM as firmware)

My Milori Spyder2 prototype measured +0.001xy which was much better than the spec (which I presume allows for some sensor drift). I would hope they spend the same calibration effort on the released package! The fact that new ColorFacts buyers get both the Spyder2 and SpyderTV indicates this to be the case. The SpyderTV does not need to be tightly calibrated - it was not intended for greyscale calibration - but for basic adjustments.

System costs are usually way more than the base hardware costs. I would rather pay $2K more than to buy a $20K reference just to be "sure". But then I am not a DIY looking to spend only $200 - while it would only take one calibration to recoup that cost - it only takes one unhappy customer to say my equipment sucked.

Question - does either one of your Spyders require the use of the light pipe/filter attachment - or is it just the white diffuser? I am not certain if the calibration for that attachment is contained in the software, driver or firmware - or if it is irrelevant which way you use it.
krasmuzik is offline  
post #340 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 07:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JohnnyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
There was absolutely zero documentation for the sensor itself included with the ColorFacts kit, so at first, I figured the light pipe attachment should be removed for CRTs, but that gave wildly incorrect results, so I emailed my contact at Datacolor. Rather than just reply to my email, she actually called me up, which I was quite impressed with! Anyway, she informed me that the attachment should *always* be installed. Whether the calibration for this is in the software or the firmware, I have no idea.
JohnnyG is online now  
post #341 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 07:40 AM
Scott Horton, techht.com
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 51
I'm no tsure which sensor you are referring to but if it's the trichomat probe, I've always been told the light pipe attachement was *only* for LCD's, definately not CRT"s.
GetGray is offline  
post #342 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 08:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ursa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Inner Loop, Houston
Posts: 5,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik
Question - does either one of your Spyders require the use of the light pipe/filter attachment - or is it just the white diffuser? I am not certain if the calibration for that attachment is contained in the software, driver or firmware - or if it is irrelevant which way you use it.
The sensor that ships with the SpyderTV and the Spyder2PRO v2.0 is designed to have the light grate be used with all display types, IIRC.

Later,
Bill
Ursa is offline  
post #343 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 10:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
derekjsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mukilteo, WA
Posts: 1,890
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 98
So it looks like the Spyder2PRO is calibrated to be used with the light grate for all types. If I remove the grate I get incorrect results on CRT, LCD and DLP FP.

So is the consensus that the Spyder2PRO's are individually calibrated to some reference?

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
derekjsmith is offline  
post #344 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 11:13 AM
umr
AVS Club Gold
 
umr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 10,136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Individually calibrated instruments usually come with a certificate. I would assume any that do not come with a certificate are not unless the manufacturer states otherwise.
umr is offline  
post #345 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 05:30 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
krasmuzik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: NewPort, VA
Posts: 11,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
umr

traceable calibrations are certified, but that does not mean you cannot do an individual calibration without certification.

It would be stupid to calibrate individual SpyderTV because of intended volumes - but they can certainly do it for SpyderColorFacts because of low volumes - there is a 10x price difference - and the sensor has the capability.

Besides we already know from wm that traceable certificates are not worth the paper they are written on - based on his attempt at getting at traceable light meter.
krasmuzik is offline  
post #346 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 05:32 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
krasmuzik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: NewPort, VA
Posts: 11,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
derekjsmith
Mark Hunter would have to give the policy statement - I am just saying my Milori Spyder2 prototype was individually calibrated. If it was not individually calibrated - then why not just have you use the SpyderTV sensor in the retail pack? Why send you a Spyder for Colorfacts and a SpyderTV?

On mine they said the LCD grate is to be left off - I use the ancient Optimagery driver still as I am not sure if they calibrated the firmware or the driver though it seems obvious that it be firmware - as they do not send out customized drivers. I got the impression this was a standard QA check against a reference - maybe they don't calibrate but put the rejects in the SpyderTV pile? :p There are only a few prototypes out there - so do what they told you with the LCD thingy.

I think it makes more sense just to tell people to leave on the LCD thingy and avoid the wacky sensor support calls - so for production they must have changed to that. It would seem that would hurt black sensitivity compared to without the LCD part. I was not supposed to get it since the software has no button to say if it is on or off - but I did not return the part even though I cannot use it. Maybe when I send the sensor in for refurb.

GetGrey
I refer to the Spyder2 - I did not know the TrichMat had a LCD thingy as well.
krasmuzik is offline  
post #347 of 353 Old 11-01-2005, 07:12 PM
umr
AVS Club Gold
 
umr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 10,136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik
umr

traceable calibrations are certified, but that does not mean you cannot do an individual calibration without certification.

It would be stupid to calibrate individual SpyderTV because of intended volumes - but they can certainly do it for SpyderColorFacts because of low volumes - there is a 10x price difference - and the sensor has the capability.

Besides we already know from wm that traceable certificates are not worth the paper they are written on - based on his attempt at getting at traceable light meter.
Are you just wanting to argue? Nothing I said is in disagreement with your statement.

I have purchased instruments in the past for legal transfer of products through various weights and measures that were NIST traceable and definitely worth the paper they were printed on. This is not to say some instrument manufacturers are less reputable or incapable of proving a devices accuracy.
umr is offline  
post #348 of 353 Old 11-02-2005, 04:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audiman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Montreal region, Canada
Posts: 1,120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG
I just paid $2K (CDN) for a ColorFacts 6.0 package. It came with a 'free' SpyderTV, so I thought I'd pull that out of the box and see if it worked with the ColorFacts software. Not only does it work, but ColorFacts identifies it as a Spyder2. I tested both and was surprised to find that they came up with somewhat different results. My eyeballs told me that the Spyder2 was more accurate, but you can probably chalk that up to production variances (which is scary!)

So, seeing that the hardware is the same, this means that the software component of that $2K price represents at least $1700 of that. Yikes!

Are you saying that colorfacts supports the 300$ spyder2 ?
audiman is offline  
post #349 of 353 Old 11-02-2005, 07:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ursa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Inner Loop, Houston
Posts: 5,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiman
Are you saying that colorfacts supports the 300$ spyder2 ?
It is now the default sensor. Datacolor and GretagMacbeth are competitors in the industrial sector, and I think that continuing to use a competitor's sensor as a default choice would not have made corporate happy, irrespective of the differences between the TR-1 and Spyder.

Later,
Bill
Ursa is offline  
post #350 of 353 Old 11-02-2005, 09:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
krasmuzik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: NewPort, VA
Posts: 11,270
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
audiman

ColorFacts is now open sensor license - though not sure if they have a hardware free package anymore. It has API that is easily updated for practically any sensor worth buying - if you are using the dongle you do not even need an update.
krasmuzik is offline  
post #351 of 353 Old 11-02-2005, 05:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary Lightfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 4,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 39
I've just received the USB Dongle, and now the SpyderTV sensor works with Colorfacts. I've yet to check how it compares directly with the TR-1 though. Earlier testing with the SpyderTV and TR-1 using their own software (CF and TV) taking readings a few seconds apart showed them to be close, but still a small percentage different. That could be down to the software as the Spyder TV and Spyder2Pro software gave different results with the same sensor.

Gary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is offline  
post #352 of 353 Old 11-02-2005, 06:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Montreal region, Canada
Posts: 1,120
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Is there a used version of colorfacts that i could buy and then make it work with my spyder2 ?

If i almost know what i'm doing with x,y Y values (CRT FPJ) do i need colorfact ?
audiman is offline  
post #353 of 353 Old 01-28-2006, 08:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lovingdvd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Just read through this entire thread. Very informative. The one thing I did not see covered, is whether the EyeOne Pro can be used with the diffuser (ambient light head) pointed at the pj with ColorFacts 6.0.

UMRs software looks excellent. However it is very difficult to justify the investment since I have already invested heavily in CF. The question then becomes whether CF is capable of using this ambient light mode. Jeff said he didn't think it was, but wasn't sure.

I tried posting about this here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=636633 but haven't had any responses. See that post for more specifics on what I am trying to do and why. It seems as though someone following this thread would know this info. Thanks in advance!
lovingdvd is offline  
Closed Thread Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off