SpyderTV Review - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 933 Old 06-01-2006, 05:44 PM
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well, it has been mentioned many times that the spyder is not very accurate below 30 IRE. I have noticed the same inaccuracy at the low voltage levels (10-20 IRE) when self-calibrating my grayscale utilizing the spyder2pro as well.
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post #782 of 933 Old 06-01-2006, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe View Post

Im hoping people still check this forum, as its popularity has certainly dropped some. While taking measurements from my display, I noticed something odd when taking readings with both the 10 and 20 IRE windows. Utilizing radars spreadsheet, the relative level of green skyrockets off the page under the 20%, but then levels off just like the other two colors. Changing the green settings a lot in the user menu would bring the peak down, but would mess everything else up. Counter-changing of the other colors could never level it off.

My question is whether the Spyder2Pro is not very accurate with the 10 and 20 IRE windows, or are diplays unable of getting the relative RGB in this section as accurate as the remaining IRE Windows.

I have noticed that when other people post their relative levels, it seems as if they all have the three lines merging close together near the 20 mark....

For UHP lamp-based displays, you will typically see a big divergence at low light levels, but 20IRE sounds a bit high. What type of display do you have and what is the light level the meter is returning?

Later,
Bill

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
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post #783 of 933 Old 06-01-2006, 06:28 PM
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Its a 32 inch lcd panel from sony... I am unsure what data you are asking for exactly, but I noticed that at 10 and 20 IRE, the color temp was 9000 and 7000 respectively, then would level off near 6500K +-100 for the rest of the windows. When changing the drive and cut settings in the service menu, I would notice changes at these levels, but it would take drastic changes to the cuts and drives. I could post the graph if that would be a better explanation.
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post #784 of 933 Old 06-01-2006, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe View Post

Its a 32 inch lcd panel from sony... I am unsure what data you are asking for exactly, but I noticed that at 10 and 20 IRE, the color temp was 9000 and 7000 respectively, then would level off near 6500K +-100 for the rest of the windows. When changing the drive and cut settings in the service menu, I would notice changes at these levels, but it would take drastic changes to the cuts and drives. I could post the graph if that would be a better explanation.

With an LCD panel, I'd be really surprised if the light level at 20% were low enough to fall outside the Spyders sensor range. It might be low enough for ambient light to impact it, though. Have you seen a review or other calibration from this model of family of models?

Feel free to post the graph, but we are treading close to my "not supporting Shawn's work" rule...

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Bill

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post #785 of 933 Old 06-02-2006, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

With an LCD panel, I'd be really surprised if the light level at 20% were low enough to fall outside the Spyders sensor range. It might be low enough for ambient light to impact it, though. Have you seen a review or other calibration from this model of family of models?

Feel free to post the graph, but we are treading close to my "not supporting Shawn's work" rule...

Later,
Bill

Yeah, I realize your desire to stay separated with Shawn's spreadsheet and all, the only problem is that you are the most knowledgable person about this topic in the forum. You've got to be getting close to finishing up the work and documentation on your edition of the spreadsheet, which I would love to get my hands on. Anyway, its the KDL-32S2000 from Sony, and the only review I have been able to read is from CNET and it just noted that colors out of the box were better than average as far as accuracy goes.

Looking over my final calibration results, the 20 IRE window throws a wrench into an otherwise nearly perfect calibration. Both the x and y data from the xyY meter vary 0.003 after the 20 IRE mark, but at the mark, the data jumps .17 in x, and .12 in y. The color temperature also dropped nearly 1000 points below standard. Maybe its a bad sensor, and I should return it for an exchange since all of the other points seem to fall into place.

I've attached the basic relative RGB graph to show the spike at 20, along with the Gamma Curve. I also thought it was noteworthy to supply the DeltaE vs D65 to further show how large this odd jump is.

RGB graph/data

Gamma graph

DeltaE

Bill, I really appreciate your input so far, and if I have stepped over that thin line I was tight rope walking before, please just pm me and I can let you stay focused on more pertinent topics.
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post #786 of 933 Old 06-02-2006, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe View Post

You've got to be getting close to finishing up the work and documentation on your edition of the spreadsheet, which I would love to get my hands on.

Derek Smith has already left a teaser in his thread, but we are targeting July 1, give or take, to nail down v2.0. We will have full interoperability with ANY VERSION OF SPYDER2. However, I do still strongly recommend using either the STV or S2PRO, though (most people will want the "improved" sensor). However, from a grayscale standpoint, the differences won't matter. No more having to transcribe numbers, and no real risk of Colorvision being able to change a window or font and break the functionality. I will, of course, be supporting it fully elsewhere (announcement when it comes), to the extent my day job allows me. Yes, it will be a commercial product, so this is about the last I will say on the subject here.

Quote:


Looking over my final calibration results, the 20 IRE window throws a wrench into an otherwise nearly perfect calibration. Both the x and y data from the xyY meter vary 0.003 after the 20 IRE mark, but at the mark, the data jumps .17 in x, and .12 in y. The color temperature also dropped nearly 1000 points below standard. Maybe its a bad sensor, and I should return it for an exchange since all of the other points seem to fall into place.

With the black level you have, I would be concerned about ALL of the measurements if the sensor were bad. To even start worrying about low-light accuracy issues, you need to be <1.0cd/m^2, which your 0 and 10 meaurement qualify, but your 20 does not. Are you running the STV? If so, have you increased the exposure time for these measurements?

Quote:


I've attached the basic relative RGB graph to show the spike at 20, along with the Gamma Curve. I also thought it was noteworthy to supply the DeltaE vs D65 to further show how large this odd jump is.

RGB graph/data

Gamma graph

DeltaE

Bill, I really appreciate your input so far, and if I have stepped over that thin line I was tight rope walking before, please just pm me and I can let you stay focused on more pertinent topics.

In looking at your graphs, and with you having said that you have to make some pretty significant changes to the green brightness to get it to move, I am still hung up on either a display limitation or ambient light pollution.

If I look at what the guys at Secrets got for the Sceptre 37", your results aren't out of line:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...05-part-2.html
Looking at what Sony LCD review I could find, I'm still seeing something similar:
http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/106sony/index2.html
Of course, the latter only gives us color temp and gamut, so it is much harder to see what's going on there.

Checking a few WSR reviews gives me also adds some evidence to the thought that what you have may be a good calibration for a direct view LCD (a 37" Sharp had a dE of 8 at 20% and 34 at 10% after calibration). If we can't nail down the ambient light pollution issue...

Later,
Bill

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post #787 of 933 Old 06-02-2006, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

Derek Smith has already left a teaser in his thread, but we are targeting July 1, give or take, to nail down v2.0. We will have full interoperability with ANY VERSION OF SPYDER2. However, I do still strongly recommend using either the STV or S2PRO, though (most people will want the "improved" sensor). However, from a grayscale standpoint, the differences won't matter. No more having to transcribe numbers, and no real risk of Colorvision being able to change a window or font and break the functionality. I will, of course, be supporting it fully elsewhere (announcement when it comes), to the extent my day job allows me. Yes, it will be a commercial product, so this is about the last I will say on the subject here.


With the black level you have, I would be concerned about ALL of the measurements if the sensor were bad. To even start worrying about low-light accuracy issues, you need to be <1.0cd/m^2, which your 0 and 10 meaurement qualify, but your 20 does not. Are you running the STV? If so, have you increased the exposure time for these measurements?


In looking at your graphs, and with you having said that you have to make some pretty significant changes to the green brightness to get it to move, I am still hung up on either a display limitation or ambient light pollution.

If I look at what the guys at Secrets got for the Sceptre 37", your results aren't out of line:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...05-part-2.html
Looking at what Sony LCD review I could find, I'm still seeing something similar:
http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/106sony/index2.html
Of course, the latter only gives us color temp and gamut, so it is much harder to see what's going on there.

Checking a few WSR reviews gives me also adds some evidence to the thought that what you have may be a good calibration for a direct view LCD (a 37" Sharp had a dE of 8 at 20% and 34 at 10% after calibration). If we can't nail down the ambient light pollution issue...

Later,
Bill

I have been using spyder2pro for all of the measurements, but as for the ambient light issue... Are you suggesting that I make the room darker to try and get a more accurate reading? During my last calibration, it was around 11pm and the only lights on in the room were the screen of the laptop being used for the sensor, and a small 15 inch lcd monitor from a desktop computer across the room. I could easily turn off the desktop computer next time, but could that small of a monitor have that large of an affect on the reading?

I wouldn't want to be satisfied with this calibration unless the possible problem around 20IRE is not going to be a visible issue. I could try cranking down on green and then in return cranking up on red and blue to try and flatten out the green slope... If anyone has any suggestion there, I wouldn't mind hearing them.

Finally, I have not seen many RGB graphs or Delta E graphs, so I am curious on whether the calibration I have achieved so far (past 20IRE) is a decent one?
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post #788 of 933 Old 06-02-2006, 11:21 AM
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Your Delta E is quite good from 30 on up, but you will see errors in your shadow details (somewhat muddy).

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post #789 of 933 Old 06-02-2006, 11:23 AM
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Would it be worth trying to turn the backlight down or brightness up to remedy this? Or will the current problem at 20IRE be proportional at different backlight and brightness settings?
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post #790 of 933 Old 06-02-2006, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmrowe View Post

Would it be worth trying to turn the backlight down or brightness up to remedy this? Or will the current problem at 20IRE be proportional at different backlight and brightness settings?

You can try changing the backlight, since it may be non-linear in its light output. However, I'd be skeptical of Sony's quality control if I saw too much change in colorimetry here. You might see a lower dE if the light is non-linear, since dE* is dependent upon relative light levels. If your white point doesn't fall as fast as the black, your contrast not only goes up, but your dE goes down. Exciting, huh? Of course, this does indicate a manufacturing or design issue, but if it works, hey, why not take it!

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Bill

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post #791 of 933 Old 06-02-2006, 04:19 PM
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Hi guys,

I have used the spreadsheet & the S2XYy tool for some time now. Thanks guys. Great work!

Allthough, things can always be simplified...

I managed to chart some of the API for the CVSpyder.dll file. The file is used by the Spyder2Pro application to communicate with the Spyder2 meter and is downloadable (with the Spyder2Pro app) from colorvisions website.

One interesting find was that the expsure time could be set when taking measurements.

I made a tiny VB6-app upon the base of my findings which use the spyder2 to take XYZ (XYy) readings. Exposure time is selectable in the application. Readings are "saved" in a list and easily cut'n pasted into the spreadsheet.

You can select between LCD/PROJ and CRT (as in the colorimeter tool), but the CRT option does not seem to give correct readings at the moment... I'll look into it.

Make sure that your CVSpyder.dll file resides in the same directory as the application or in the system PATH. (eg winnt/system32).

The app is pretty straight forward. Make sure the spyder2 is connected to an USB port. Fire up the application (prjS2.exe). The communication with Spyder2 is setup during startup hence the application might take about 5 seconds until it's visible. Press the Initialize button when the application window is up. You can change exposure time if you like, The exposuretime is deafulted to 300 ("300 what" u might ask? Don't ask, I have no idea. 300 is the value that the colorimeter use). You're now ready to take measurements.

Happy measuring!

EDIT:
New version posted. Attached sreenshot.
Added:
* Custom Templates for "automated" measurements with application generated testpatterns. (woohaa! for htpc users)

Planned:
* Support for "external" testpatterns in templates
* Better data presentation
* Single step execution on allready measured step.
* Fix the problem with mesurements in CRT-Mode. EDIT>CRT Mode seems to work when using v4.0.0.7 of CVSpyder.dll
Known bugs:
Oh, yeah.... but mostly cosmetic ones
/EDIT

EDIT Again:
Almost immediately after post I found a bug on reading blue. Fixed and uploaded.
/EDIT

// Lyckman
LL

 

S2FLy.zip 22.435546875k . file
Attached Files
File Type: zip S2FLy.zip (22.4 KB, 44 views)
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post #792 of 933 Old 06-03-2006, 05:08 AM
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I tried Lyckmans application last night. It seems to be right on par with the measurements made by the Colorvision colorimeter and it's really easy to use.
Just do the measurements, copy and paste into the Excel-sheet. Done!
Really great little application.
I just put the app in the same directory as the Spyder2 app.
A full DVE 20-100 IRE measurement takes just takes a minute or two now.
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post #793 of 933 Old 06-03-2006, 05:11 AM
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These are the latest measurements made from my back-projecting Sony 1292Q CRT-projector btw:

20 0,3138 0,3248 1,381
40 0,3084 0,3318 5,339
60 0,3061 0,3291 13,161
80 0,309 0,3286 25,177
100 0,3122 0,3281 40,464

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post #794 of 933 Old 06-03-2006, 05:14 AM
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and gamma 2.57
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post #795 of 933 Old 06-03-2006, 05:32 AM
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Very nice....

Would be nice to have "presets" mentioning the standard IRE steps 0, 10, 20, 30...100 in a vertical column. And with this an option to select a certain row in the measured data with a "remeasure" button...in this way it would be possible to improve certain readings while shifting the slider...

Any chanc this little program could be linked to the free downloadable testpattern program datacolor provides for colorfact purposes..In that way the testpatterns could be generated from that program and your utility can grab the measured data. (see -> Datacolor ColorFacts Professional Test Patterns)

Just some thoughts...couldnt resist

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post #796 of 933 Old 06-03-2006, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arno P View Post

Very nice....

Would be nice to have "presets" mentioning the standard IRE steps 0, 10, 20, 30...100 in a vertical column. And with this an option to select a certain row in the measured data with a "remeasure" button...in this way it would be possible to improve certain readings while shifting the slider...

Thanks.
Good idea. How about this; The way it works now would be some kind of "free measure mode". I could implement some kind of "Template measure mode" where you could predefine the number of readings (and also exposure time for each reading). After measurements, any reading can be selected and remeasured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arno P View Post

Any chanc this little program could be linked to the free downloadable testpattern program datacolor provides for colorfact purposes..In that way the testpatterns could be generated from that program and your utility can grab the measured data. (see -> Datacolor ColorFacts Professional Test Patterns)

Just some thoughts...couldnt resist

I have thought about doing something like that to make it easier for htpc users to do measurements. Allthough, the cf testpatterns is created by the program in runtime, hence not easily accessible. It's up to me to create my own (I'll refuse to "macro-program" the interface). To create testpatterns is quite a simple task though.

The testpatterns could then be used in conjunction with the above idea to do fully automated measurements to your own specs.

Any thoughts before I set it in motion?

// Lyckman
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post #797 of 933 Old 06-03-2006, 07:52 AM
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For the patterns could be 2 options:

1 "Internal patterns" (inserted in your prog.)
2 Option of having external patterns by which the user pops in a test dvd on the first 0IRE testpattern (AVIA/DVE/Finzel?GetGrey) and your program only triggers the disc by a "next chapter". The additional info the program needs to know is the total number of testpatterns (5 for the DVE, 10 for the others).

While running first the SP2 application needs to be up front and the DVD-player software (for me prefered TT) is in the background. After the "start" the application goes to the background and the DVD player applic. is up front until the last measurement..

You can always PM me for debugging or additional thoughts

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post #798 of 933 Old 06-03-2006, 07:41 PM
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Ive posted a new version of the S2FLy utility in my initial post on this page (#791). Would link it if I could but I havnt earned enough avs-credzzz yet! :P
I'll try to keep the versioning in that post...

Cheers!

// Lyckman
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post #799 of 933 Old 06-05-2006, 05:47 PM
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Hi, I think I read this forum right. I just bought a Spydertv and I already have the spyder2 pro software. So I should be good for my home rear Projection TV and my computer lcd monitor now. Is that right?

So I have a new Spdertv colorimeter and software and spyder2 pro software.

The colorimeter should work on both screens now that I have both software?

Thanks for your help.
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post #800 of 933 Old 06-06-2006, 12:43 AM
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Thought I would post again with the results of another run of calibration. I managed to tweak the KDL-32S2000 a little more, and I think the results are pretty astounding. My Delta E is more acceptable, and besides for the odd green value at 10IRE, the RGB graph is pretty good. I will just leave some pictures so people can look instead of hearing me ramble on. If anyone has any suggestions on further improvements or tweaks I could make, please feel free to comment...

Calibration Data

RGB graph

Gamma curves

DeltaE and Color Temp
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post #801 of 933 Old 06-06-2006, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darryls View Post

Hi, I think I read this forum right. I just bought a Spydertv and I already have the spyder2 pro software. So I should be good for my home rear Projection TV and my computer lcd monitor now. Is that right?

So I have a new Spdertv colorimeter and software and spyder2 pro software.

The colorimeter should work on both screens now that I have both software?

Yes, you should be fine.

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post #802 of 933 Old 06-07-2006, 06:11 AM
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This looks very nice Lyckman! I look forward to playing with it during my next calibration session!

How difficult would it be to also provide a dll with access to the VB class/form directly? It would be great to be able to access it from VBA directly ... that way it can be integrated into Excel and also allow one to write macros that take readings, decompose them, make suggestions, etc.!
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post #803 of 933 Old 06-07-2006, 10:00 AM
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I have a new load of calibration equipment coming (light meters and a pattern generator) so that I can get out and test the various models of Spyder2 with displays that I don't own (none of my friends have HD!) with the new product. It came along much faster than I had feared. If folks in the Houston area want me to come play with their sets on weekends, please PM me for details. I prefer inside the loop, but am willing to drive a bit. If you are in Huntsville, I appreciate the invitation, but I must respectfully decline the 2+ hour drive each way.


Later,
Bill

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post #804 of 933 Old 06-07-2006, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

.... If you are in Huntsville, I appreciate the invitation, but I must respectfully decline the 2+ hour drive each way. ...

Darn!!
Sounds like Metro Detroit is out of the question then....

BTW, I just bought a Spyder2Pro off eBay. I should get it sometime next week. (Hopefully my new Ruby will have shown up by then as well.)

____
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post #805 of 933 Old 06-07-2006, 09:57 PM
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If you go to the colorvision euro web site they have the spces for the Spyder2's in all the CV packages. What it says is the Spyder2 in all the packages has the same specs. Note they still may calibrate to a higher spec but these are the mins:

Performance
Dynamic Range Black point: 0.02 cd/m2
White point: >5,000 cd/m2t
Accuracy (CRT) Luminance: Y: typical +/- 1.5%,
Chroma x,y: typical +/- 0.0020
Accuracy (LCD) Luminance: Y: typical +/- 1.5%,
Chroma x,y: typical +/- 0.0035
Repeatability Luminance: Y: Less than +/- 1.0%,
Chroma x,y: Less than +/- 0.0010
Inter-Instrument Agreement
(CRT and LCD) Luminance: Y: typical +/- 1.5%,
Chroma x,y: typical +/- 0.0016

Derek

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post #806 of 933 Old 06-08-2006, 06:37 PM
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Derek, what does this tell us compared to something like a Gretag colorimeter?
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post #807 of 933 Old 06-08-2006, 06:45 PM
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I don't know Bill should be able to tell us with his testing.

My point was that the Spyder2 colorimeter that is included with all CV products is the same by spec.

Derek

CTO Portrait Displays Inc.
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post #808 of 933 Old 06-08-2006, 06:48 PM
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Understood, but since this is the first time Colorvision (to my knowledge) has published performance specs it got me curious about what the numbers tell us.
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post #809 of 933 Old 06-09-2006, 07:13 AM
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Compare vs. the published specs of the EyeOne Pro:

Measurement range: 0.2 - 300cd.m^2
xy: +/-0.002
Repeatability: <0.1 dE(1994)
Inter-instrument agreement: <0.4 dE (1994)

http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/downloa...rochure-en.pdf

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
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post #810 of 933 Old 06-09-2006, 07:18 AM
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The key thing to note is that they are only specifying accuracy for CRT and LCD flat panel. Other display types are likely to be much worse. Here is some real world experience with this instrument on DLP.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7456718
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