can someone do a rundown of what a basic isf calibration should include? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks alot.
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post #2 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 01:53 PM
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This is an excerpt from CNET on "ISF" calibration.

"Set grayscale to the NTSC standard of 6,500 Kelvin, improving color accuracy of the entire palette; set contrast, brightness, color, and so on using test patterns designed specifically for each of these controls; optimize overscan and picture position, enabling display of more of the incoming picture; correct "red push" in the color decoder when possible; optimize all DVD input sources using DVD test patterns and HDTV input using an HDTV test-pattern signal generator."
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post #3 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 02:38 PM
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Can someone explain in detail what Set grayscale to the NTSC standard of 6,500 Kelvin is. I'm trying to understand this a little better in terms of what the 6,500 kelvin means and why all tv's are not set at this at the factory.
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post #4 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 03:06 PM
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post #5 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 03:20 PM
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Thanks interesting link from audioholics.
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post #6 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 04:53 PM
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Greetings

Grayscale is also not properly set because marketing forces have determined that they can sell more TV's if they mess up the image in certain ways.

The Marketing of a TV has nothing to do with presenting accurate images.

If you find that making the image green sells more TV's ... by GOD ... you make your TV's green. It's about who sells the most TV's ... not about who is more accurate.

And then there is the role of the calibrator ... ISF or not ... where accuracy is the goal.

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The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #7 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 04:59 PM
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Greetings

The Imaging Science Foundation has recommended the following pricing guidelines:

CRT tube set ... $225

RPTV (analog/digital) ... $275

FPTV (analog/digital) ... $325

Plasma / LCD Flat Panel ... $250

This above pricing is considered to be SRP ... but no calibrator is forced to adhere to this. The pricing includes one grayscale for one scan rate/input. Add a second source ... say HD ... add $125 per additional grayscale/scanrate.

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The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #8 of 28 Old 09-28-2005, 08:00 PM
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MIchael TLV,

Who do you recommend to use for isf calibration in particular? I live in Indiana.
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post #9 of 28 Old 09-29-2005, 11:11 AM
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MYTV,
A couple of guys over in CRT FP have used Ken Whitcomb. He is based out of Indy, I believe.


Michael,
I have often heard of the deliberate messing up of the TVs. I wonder if Best Buy calibrated all of the TVs on the floor, then if of the general public could tell the difference between dispalys?:)

Eric

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post #10 of 28 Old 09-29-2005, 12:20 PM
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Greetings

Well I walked through the floor of a BB and a few other local big box stores and found some sets had the component red/blue swapped to produce ugly colors ...

On purpose? The more expensive units were set up right ...hmmm

regards

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The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #11 of 28 Old 09-29-2005, 12:22 PM
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Greetings

Of course setting up the TV's to the best they can be on the floor is not what they want to achieve. That's where things like bait and switch and upselling come into play.

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Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
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post #12 of 28 Old 09-29-2005, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo
MYTV,
A couple of guys over in CRT FP have used Ken Whitcomb. He is based out of Indy, I believe.


Michael,
I have often heard of the deliberate messing up of the TVs. I wonder if Best Buy calibrated all of the TVs on the floor, then if of the general public could tell the difference between dispalys?:)

Eric
Thanks Eric, I have additionally had Gregg Loewen recommended. Anyone have any ideas from past experiences between the two.
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post #13 of 28 Old 10-01-2005, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
Greetings

Grayscale is also not properly set because marketing forces have determined that they can sell more TV's if they mess up the image in certain ways.
To elaborate.

Very early on, the marketing departments of the TV manufacturers learned that when viewing a wall of TVs in a bright room, such as on the showroom floor, the consumer usually selected the brightest display as having the best PQ (picture quality). Due to the way that the human eye functions and due to the physical nature of the color phosphors used in a TV, the brightest picture that a TV can make is one that is too Green.

So TVs came from the factory set inaccurately so as to maximize brightness, and thus maximize sales. They pushed this trend so far that the color error became objectionable, even in the showroom setting. To counter this, they introduced a color error in the color decoders called "red push" to mask the problem with the typical content played on TVs in the showroom.

When you have a wall of TVs in this setting that are inaccurate, but very bright, a TV that is calibrated properly will be noticeably dimmer and it will appear too Red. This illusion is induced by the comparison. The human eye/brain perceives the accurate TV to be dim and Red, only by way of comparison. Remove the comparison, the illusion disappears, and the average consumer is stuck with an inaccurate picture.

Why isn't this more objectionable? Because until the ISF began pointing this out about ten years ago, no consumer had seen an accurate picture that conformed the video standards established when color TV began. Who new? Plus NTSC (standard definition) TV has had such lousy color fidelity since its inception that we have been trained to accept color fidelity, color saturation, etc. that is all over the map. Hence the industry joke that NTSC stands for Never Twice the Same Color.

DVD and ATSC (high def) TV has changed that. We now have ready access to content that is consistent and correct. Setting the display to the standards that displays are supposed to meet (calibrating them) allows you to see the movie or TV show as the creator intended.

Our entire video system is based on standards for every aspect of production. There are standards for the cameras, the production equipment, the processing, and conversion of the content, and for the display. The whole point is to have a system that is accurate, that allows you to see the same colors that the camera saw, and that the creative director intended for you to see. An ISF calibrator sets the display to meet the video standards established for displays, the same standards that are being used by every thing else in the video chain. This allows you see the picture that you were meant to see.

Glenn
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post #14 of 28 Old 10-02-2005, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYTV
Can someone explain in detail what Set grayscale to the NTSC standard of 6,500 Kelvin is. I'm trying to understand this a little better in terms of what the 6,500 kelvin means and why all tv's are not set at this at the factory.
The human eye can only detect three colors: Red, Green and Blue. The vast color palette that we perceive is our brains' interpretation of varying mixtures of red, green and blue. Our video system is designed to emulate human vision.

A display can only make three colors: Red, Green and Blue. Just as in nature, the extensive color palette we perceive on our screens is our brains' interpretation.

The video system defines the exact colors for Red, Green, and Blue to be used by the camera, the processing equipment and ultimately the display. It also defines that exact mixture of Red, Green, and Blue that makes White. This allows the display to produce the same colors that the camera detected. Once Red, Green, Blue, and White are right, so too will be the rest of the color palette.

In most displays Red, Green and Blue (R, G, B) are not adjustable. They are built into the set and are fixed. What can be set is White. The process of setting White to the standard for White is called calibrating the "Grayscale".

The video standards define White as a particular point in color space called D65 (often less precisely described as 6500 Kelvin). Its x,y color coordinates in two dimensional color space are .313 .329. The term "Grayscale" describes the color White at all intensity levels, what the eye perceives as brightness levels.

We tend to think of gray as a different color from White. In Video it isn't. It is the same color, just not as bright. To illustrate this point take a piece of white paper and look at it in a brightly lit room at night. The color of the paper is White. Gradually turn down the dimmer on your lamp. As you do, the paper appears to become grayer and grayer until it becomes Black as the light goes out. Has the color of the paper changed during this exercise? No. The thing that changed was the brightness level, the intensity, nothing else.

Calibrating a display's grayscale is the process of setting White to D65 at all intensity levels, i.e. at all levels of gray, hence the term "grayscale". Most all the colors that a display produces are affected by the grayscale. If it is wrong, so are they.

A standard TV can produce an over abundance of Green. In the pursuit of screen brightness, TV manufacturers use this overabundance by setting the grayscale overly Green. This makes it look better in comparison to a dimmer set, but only in comparison. Remove the comparison, and you are stuck with an overly green picture.

To mask this they deviate from the video standards, which dictate how the color decoding is to be performed. They introduce "red push" in the color decoding. This produces additional Red at the lower and middle intensity levels where there is still enough Red left in the display to do this. At the higher intensity levels (the parts of the image that are bright) the display runs out of Red, and the green inaccuracy can't be masked. However, you won't notice this with the typical video content displayed in the showroom. At home, with a wide variety of content, it is quite visible and objectionable.

I have "Seen the White" and it is D65.

Glenn
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post #15 of 28 Old 10-02-2005, 10:05 AM
 
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I would just like to not that what you want is the best calibrator or setup tech for your display, and this may or may not be an ISF guy. And not all ISF guys are equal, nor do they know every display on the planet like the back of their hand. Some will go beyond the "basic" ISF greyscale, and really do a stellar job to get everything as good as possible by cleaning everything, doing a full setup, mods (internal lining for instance on RPTVs) or similar.

If you can't afford or don't want to stomach the cost of a pro calibrator, you MUST at the very least do basic calibrations with Avia/DVE! This will provide the best bang-for-the-buck image, but it won't be what a pro can elicit from your display.
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post #16 of 28 Old 10-03-2005, 02:19 PM
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Greetings

Glenn, I think you meant to say that the TV's are blue on purpose ... not green.

:)

Regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #17 of 28 Old 10-04-2005, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenned
The human eye can only detect three colors: Red, Green and Blue. The vast color palette that we perceive is our brains' interpretation of varying mixtures of red, green and blue. Our video system is designed to emulate human vision.
The info on this site doesn't quite agree with you!
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/colour/primary.html

Saying that the human eye can only detect three colours is like saying the pool in your backyard only has a shallow end and a deep end, when the reality is there's plenty of in-between. But it takes a shallow end and a deep end to make those levels in-between.
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post #18 of 28 Old 10-05-2005, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG
The info on this site doesn't quite agree with you!
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/colour/primary.html

Saying that the human eye can only detect three colours is like saying the pool in your backyard only has a shallow end and a deep end, when the reality is there's plenty of in-between. But it takes a shallow end and a deep end to make those levels in-between.
The article that you reference actually reinforces what I have posted, though much of it is about something entirely different. He covers topics which I have intentionally skipped, and he goes on to present a theoretical construct he calls “cone primaries or fundamental primaries†which cannot actually be seen, but only imagined. The response curves of the three types of cones overlap. The author is theorizing about what color a person would perceive if that overlap could be eliminated so that just one cone type was stimulated at a time.

On the other hand, my post was a simple and general explanation of how our Video System is based on Color Science and patterned after the function of the human eye.

Below are some quotes from the article that reinforce the points that:
· The eye has only 3 types of color sensors (3 types of cones)
· All the colors we perceive are from different combinations of stimulation of just these 3 types of sensors
· Our perception of color is an interpretation by the brain of these different patterns of stimulation

“Suppose that you could, by some magic, tickle each of the three types of cone in your eye individually, or in any proportion, at will. Clearly you could produce any possible colour - along with some impossible colours - by tickling your cones in the appropriate combination. As discussed immediately below, the colours that correspond to tickling each cone separately are the cone primaries, or fundamental primaries . . . It should be emphasized that the colours you actually perceive are coloured by processing in the brain, and do not depend simply on how much each cone type is tickled . . .Your eye contains long, medium, and short wavelength cones, called L-cones, M-cones, and S-cones , , , As you undoubtedly know, the eye perceives colour through three types of cone on the retina. As a result, it is possible to define any colour, any mixture of visible wavelengths, using 3 coordinates . . . What do the fundamental primary colours look like? All of them lie outside the range of colours that can be produced by ordinary light, so you have to stretch your imaginationâ€

Look at the author’s chart which graphs the spectral response of each of the three types of cones and note that the response curves in the chart are colored red, green, and blue to correspond to the color that each particular cone type is most sensitive to.

The color monitor that you are reading this post on has three types of phosphors and can only make three colors, Red, Green, and Blue. By mixing these three colors in different proportions the monitor tickles the three types of cones in your eyes, and stimulates your brain to perceive a vast color palette. The same thing could be done with red, green, and blue single wavelength lasers. They can create the exact same stimulation pattern and trigger the exact same color sensations, but with a very different color spectrum of light than the monitor.

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post #19 of 28 Old 10-05-2005, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
The human eye can only detect three colors
This is the part I take issue with. You may have receptors for 3 primaries, but saying the eye can only detect three colours is equivelant to saying my monitor can only display 3 colours. Can my eye not see the wavelengths for the colour yellow?

Colour is not binary, it's 110% analog. The red and green primaries in my monitor combine into a wavelength that 'tickles' my red and green receptors, which my brain processes as yellow.

Saying the eye can only see red, green and blue is kind of like saying my speakers can only produce bass and treble as they only have a woofer and tweeter.
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post #20 of 28 Old 10-05-2005, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG
This is the part I take issue with. You may have receptors for 3 primaries, but saying the eye can only detect three colours is equivelant to saying my monitor can only display 3 colours. Can my eye not see the wavelengths for the colour yellow?

Colour is not binary, it's 110% analog. The red and green primaries in my monitor combine into a wavelength that 'tickles' my red and green receptors, which my brain processes as yellow.

Saying the eye can only see red, green and blue is kind of like saying my speakers can only produce bass and treble as they only have a woofer and tweeter.
This is a damn good post.
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post #21 of 28 Old 10-06-2005, 12:10 PM
 
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Does this argument have any kind of point?
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post #22 of 28 Old 10-07-2005, 09:14 AM
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damned right !

we're drifting off topic but I think this is more interesting than talking about the displays !

We have to be careful here (and I think it is Glen's point) in differentiating between how the eye physically works as a detection device and how the signals from that device are interpretted and processed by the "CPU" (the brain). We take it so much for granted that we see millions of colours - I (an engineer interested in evolution, brain function, psychology...) had never thought about what it means when we talk of "primary colours", but what Glen says makes sense. I'd always thought of the primary colours as an absolute in physics. But this suggests they're only primaries to us because it's an analogue of how our own vision works. If it wasn't like this - the receptors in our retina would have to have a responce to any frequency of light and the brain "see" that as whatever the colour was. But to suggest that we "see" the myriad of different colours because of how the brain interprets the signals coming into it makes absolute sense.

A great series on BBC called "Brain Story" showed the advances made in understanding brain function by the study of people with selective loss of brain function (from surgery, strokes or damage). There is no single vision centre. There are different elements to our vision, colour perception being only one. A female stroke victim in Germany who can no longer perceive movement (try to imagine that), or a guy who can't recognise shape anymore. There's nothing wrong with these peoples eyes - it's how the signals are being processed.

So if "Primary colours" are only primary colours to us because of how our eyes work, then animals with different detectors in their retinas would have "different primary colours" which would combine to create the perception of white light, and so require different phosphors in their TV's ?
(no wonder dogs don't watch TV... although don't they only see in B+W ?)
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post #23 of 28 Old 10-07-2005, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1138
So if "Primary colours" are only primary colours to us because of how our eyes work, then animals with different detectors in their retinas would have "different primary colours" which would combine to create the perception of white light, and so require different phosphors in their TV's ?
(no wonder dogs don't watch TV... although don't they only see in B+W ?)
What we see vs. what we perceive.

My dog does watch TV. True with both CRT and plasma. Before we got the plasma, he would see a dog on the screen, run up to it, and follow it with his nose. I quickly stopped that behavior when we got the plasma! But it is clear that animals get his visual attention. And it is not the sound alone. Still true with mute on!

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[quote=Steve1138] But to suggest that we "see" the myriad of different colours because of how the brain interprets the signals coming into it makes absolute sense.
QUOTE]

Color only exist in our brain. Color of a given object ie: is absorbing the entire spectrum of light frequencies except the wavelength that "we" identify as it's particular color. Our eyes are most sensitive to the wavelength that we perceive to be green. That is why the video component "Y" is very close to component Green, and a majority of the information is encoded there, and less is needed for Blue and Red.

A good example of this is why some people perceive colors differently, ie Green and Brown, I'm guessing there cones and optic nerves may have different qualities than the average person.

thomas
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post #25 of 28 Old 10-07-2005, 01:32 PM
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We do not see wavelength/frequency like we hear sound. The ear is a frequency analyzer - the eye is a spectral energy analyzer.

While they are referred to as RGB cones - that is just a description of where the spectra filter peaks. So as long as there is some visible energy in the "blue" spectra - and it is the same amount - it will be seen as the same blue. Laser, lamp or phosphor does not matter - they are seen as the same as long as the energy is the same even if the spectra is different (assuming they have the same colorimetry measure which is not usually the case - especially for lasers)


http://www.milori.com/articles/color_measurement2.asp


Colorimetry is the science that says which spectra end up being seen as the same colors? That is the CIE1931 that everyone sees in reviews. CIE1976 took it further and scaled the triangle so that the areas of color matched closer to the variety of hues we perceive.
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post #26 of 28 Old 10-07-2005, 01:43 PM
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So the source that said we see aquamarine, violent purple, and deep red is actually incorrect when it comes to video. This is the just the filter the eyes applies. The video standard are nowhere near the primaries that the eye can see. None of the above colors are encoded in our videosystem. Rather less energy is encoded - thus we call them Green, Blue, and Red because that is what they are.
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post #27 of 28 Old 10-07-2005, 01:51 PM
 
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Light is one portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, along with X-rays and radio waves. The tiny part of this spectrum that we call light is that portion to which the human eye is sensitive. Color is another perceptual value; there is nothing about light at a wavelength of 700 nanometers that makes it red. Red is simply a perception of light, as are all other colors.

thomas
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