New calibration disc - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 2308 Old 07-14-2006, 10:11 AM
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Download the readme file on the calibrate.tv site.
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post #1082 of 2308 Old 07-14-2006, 10:14 AM
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Yes I have that, thank you. I guess I mean the patterns as they relate to service menu settings. The readme doesn't discuss that aspect.
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post #1083 of 2308 Old 07-14-2006, 01:17 PM
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None of the calibration DVDs discuss that aspect. You have to read the other threads for that information (I believe that umr discusses that issue, but I can't put my finger on the link rght now).

Each display uses different names (and control locations) anyway, so there are no universal "instructions".

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #1084 of 2308 Old 07-14-2006, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

The big difference between SD and HD is the color matrix for RGB to/from YCbCr conversion. SD uses Rec. 601, and HD uses Rec. 709. For color bars, the YCbCr values will change.
Code:
SD (Rec. 601) 75% color bars
   White  Yellow   Cyan    Green  Magenta  Red   Blue  Black
Y   180     162     131     112     84     65    35     16
Cb  128     44      156     72      184    100   212    128
Cr  128     142     44      58      198    212   114    128

HD (Rec. 709) 75% color bars
   White  Yellow   Cyan    Green  Magenta  Red   Blue  Black
Y   180     168     145     133     63     51    28     16
Cb  128     44      147     63      193    109   212    128
Cr  128     136     44      52      204    212   120    128
Here's an image that shows what happens when the wrong matrix is used to decode 75% color bars:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...chmentid=32137

Otherwise, everything is the same. You could author your disc in HD by just using the correct RGB to YCbCr conversion and scaling everything to 1920x1080 or 1280x720.

Ron

Why would he need to scale it ?
Wouldn't just adapting the new Rec. 709 be enough ?
A question for Scott now.
Are you going to put up a new .iso for download using Rec. 709, and will it be a free upgrade ?

YCbCr is Component cable, right ?
Is Rec. 709 component nessessary to calibrate all high definition monitors even if they don't use component cable ? Because I would use the Rec. 601 Getgray disk to calibrate a Dell BD notebook which doesn't use component cable to the notebook lcd.
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post #1085 of 2308 Old 07-15-2006, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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> Are you going to put up a new .iso for download using Rec. 709,

No plans at this time. I don't have a pro level authoring tool for HD-DVD and I'm pretty sure mine won't compile a HD-DVD. Plus, to get around clipping issues with consumer encoders and authoring tools, I'm having to use custom programmed bits and pieces along the way. It's those details that make this disc as accurate as it is. We can thank dr1394 for that, would not have done it without his help. Authoring the DVD was my forte, dr1394 is the mpeg expert.

> and will it be a free upgrade ?

No, it would represent a complete re-do, really a different disc, I'd start it as a different project. Not like the current one is very expensive .

> YCbCr is Component cable, right ?

No, it's "digital component" if you will. YPbPr is analog component. See:
http://www.answers.com/topic/ycbcr

> Is Rec. 709 component nessessary to calibrate all high definition monitors even if they don't use component cable ?

Depends on who's doing the RGB conversion and where.

> Because I would use the Rec. 601 Getgray disk to calibrate a Dell BD notebook which doesn't use component cable to the notebook lcd.

I'm no HTPC person, but generally, in the case of a PC, you'd have to tell it which RGB transform it was supposed to be using if you were calibrating for a 709 output I suppose. Like a standalone player, you may not get the option to tell it what RGB transform to use when decoding a SD DVD. I presume it would be a software decoder so it would depend on the software. The YCbCr values on a SD and a HD-DVD disc are the same. That's what's on the DVD. I dont' know what's on BD material right now, haven't been keeping up. It's what the device does with that info when converting to RGB that is unknown. If it sees it's a SD DVD and automatically applies a SD R601 RGB transform to it, then it would be off for the HD colorspace.
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post #1086 of 2308 Old 07-18-2006, 03:01 AM
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Displaying the (6 large) color bars, I get what looks to be some sort of edge enhancement. It is very obvious between red/blue and two of the colors in the middle (one being magenta). I am using 480i from a Pioneer dv-696 into a Vantage-HD.

Is this test pattern a good candidate when looking for edge enhancement or am I seeing something different? Anyone else noticed this?

"My other car is a seven"
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post #1087 of 2308 Old 07-18-2006, 03:23 AM
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are you wearing corrective lenses ?? sounds like chromatic aberations...


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post #1088 of 2308 Old 07-18-2006, 03:35 AM
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The transition from one color to another is not clean (from one pixel to the next). Instead there is what looks like a raised area, maybe 10 pixels wide on a 720p display. It varies. I think magenta/? was the worst followed by red/blue.

Can anyone identify this 'artifact'?

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post #1089 of 2308 Old 07-18-2006, 09:52 AM
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chroma delay?
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post #1090 of 2308 Old 07-18-2006, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I expect what you are describing and the transition you are seeing is an encoding artifact. It's inheret in hard color edge transitions in mpeg2. The transitions are done at 16 pixel boundaries to minimize the artifact, but it's worse between some colors than others. It's not unique to my disc, it's in all of them. Some worse. You can't get 1:1 hard edged pixel color changes. We discussed this way back during the initial development of the DVD IIRC. It's why you don't see perfect edge boundaries on the blinking color/tint boxes for example.
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post #1091 of 2308 Old 07-28-2006, 10:02 AM
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What program should be used to record the DVD either freeware or cheap and also what media is best to copy onto
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post #1092 of 2308 Old 07-28-2006, 10:16 AM
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Media type all depends on your drive and player really. I really favour Lite-On drives (they OEM Sony Vaio desktop drives) as they tend to read and write very well with even the dodgyest of Media, and release firmware updates on a regular basis to improve compatibility with new media. They are particularly good at making an image of copy-protected DVDs so you can leave the original disc in a DVD wallet and stick a software image on a USB 2.0 drive. I've always had good luck with TDK media (which isn't actually made with them - there are only a very small number of companies that actually manufacture the dye substrate. Some on-line vendors will actually tell you the media code on the discs that they are selling. My "TDK" discs use TTH02 media, which I've always had good luck with. My in-car nav system (BMW) is notoriously fussy and I've never had a problem. Nero is pretty good, and quite often you get a cut down version thatwith the drive that you can upgrade for peanuts. Once you have a licence version upgrades come out every couple of years for about $20 or $30. The current version of Nero is incredibly powerful you get an entire application suite for peanuts.

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post #1093 of 2308 Old 07-28-2006, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard2 View Post

What program should be used to record the DVD either freeware or cheap and also what media is best to copy onto

Taiyo Yuden DVD-R, available cheap from www.rima.com. For other buring questions, see this thread: (Buring Howto Thread ), also linked in post #1 here.
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post #1094 of 2308 Old 08-07-2006, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, now that the disc has been out a while, what patterns are experienced folks *not* using? I don't use the multi-level bars, or the frequency bursts personally.
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post #1095 of 2308 Old 08-07-2006, 04:51 PM
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GetGray, I know you have probably answered this but I can't seem to find it, so let me ask again. Why would your brightness pattern be more accurate for a digital projector then DVE or AVIA? I get a slightly different setting with all of them.
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post #1096 of 2308 Old 08-07-2006, 07:53 PM
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I recently tried the Contrast pattern from this disc on a 2005 Sony SXRD REAR projection 50". For some reason no matter how high or low I moved the contrast setting on the TV, I could not get ANY of the bars to disappear. The overall picture got brighter/dimmer as I moved the contrast control up/down, but all bars moved up/down in brightness accordingly and none would disappear into the background, so there was no way I could use this pattern to find the proper contrast setting.

Anyone else experience something like this? What could cause it? This was with an upconverting DVD player connected via HDMI. I do NOT think it is the disc itself because it works great on other sets I've calibrated like the Ruby VW-100 SXRD front pj.

Any ideas?
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post #1097 of 2308 Old 08-07-2006, 08:24 PM
 
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lovingdvd: some digital displays won't hard clip, but may just colorshift. Try looking for that. It may be very subtle. It's easier when there's hard clipping (as you've found out) because it's really obvious, but compression/colorshifting is a lot harder to see. It's certainly possible that you can go full to 100% on white level without any shifting or clipping at all, but I would be skeptical about that before really exhausting your hunt for colorshifting.
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post #1098 of 2308 Old 08-08-2006, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholicJeffL View Post

GetGray, I know you have probably answered this but I can't seem to find it, so let me ask again. Why would your brightness pattern be more accurate for a digital projector then DVE or AVIA? I get a slightly different setting with all of them.

Cause mine's right?? Just kidding.

I think mine is better becasue:
1. It has BTB info that at least one other popular DVD does not have
2. Its BTB info is "animated" making it easier to see. The "other" popular DVD has BTB but not animated. My DVD has the best of both worlds, BTB info and moving bar elements.
3. The lighter horizontal bar at the bottom is there intentionally. It's there to further give a visual cue as to where a moving bar is becasue you can see that no matter the setting.
4. The levels are perfect, spot-on and documented, in writing and the levels are on teh pattern. You *know* what you are looking at. I think with some of the other patterns there is some ambiguity as to what you are supposed to see and not supposed to see (i.e. do I adjust to see 2 bars?, 1 bar?, no bar?, etc.) New users are often asking in reference to the other DVD's. Mine is more clear I believe. And I documented it. You adjsut to see 0% and not below which is more intuative. One can adjust to see a small percentage below black but that's a personal preference.

See what I mean?
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post #1099 of 2308 Old 08-08-2006, 12:17 PM
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What patterns am I not using ?

I use these;
Brightness and contrast

Color Patterns;
Color and Tint
Color Bars
Color Ramps

Miscellaneous;
Alignment and Overscan, for the sharpness calibration.

The rest I do not use.
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post #1100 of 2308 Old 08-08-2006, 01:12 PM
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One questioned, can this cal disc actual be used to check and improve the sharpness of a 720P DLP TV? This is assuming that you have the service code manual to make the adjustments.

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post #1101 of 2308 Old 08-13-2006, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bnwbass View Post

One questioned, can this cal disc actual be used to check and improve the sharpness of a 720P DLP TV?

There is a sharpness pattern. And some feel the frequency bursts are good for checking that as well. The shaprness pattern is fairly simple, it's a multi-width-line grid on the alignment pattern.
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post #1102 of 2308 Old 08-16-2006, 10:49 PM
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Why do the rgb values obtained from either printscreen into paint or colorcop not correspond to either the 16 or 235 levels on the Brightness and Contrast test.

I have used Theatertek and wmp 10 via VMR and neither produce the proper RGB values. wmp 10 produces 19,18,18 for the 16 point and 240,239,239 for the 235 point. I have seen theatertek produce results even further away than these.

If these RGB levels are not correct then the values sent to the display are not correct also?

Can someone shed some light on why this is happening, and how to fix it.
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post #1103 of 2308 Old 08-17-2006, 01:00 AM
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What videocard and video drivers are you using? In my experience with an NVIDIA 6800GT AGP card with 77.77 drivers, I get near-perfect RGB response with all video settings at default (0) in TheaterTek. I did not use any post-processing - no FFDShow and no NVPP. Just DXVA and VMR9.
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post #1104 of 2308 Old 08-17-2006, 08:29 AM
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I am using an ATI card, putting an NVIDIA into my htpc made it very unstable.
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post #1105 of 2308 Old 08-17-2006, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, this is a HTPC question. Or a separate thread. It's a huge subject and one that could bloom into way off-topic. For some information about it we had some discussion eatly in the long thread. To view the levels I disect the original file from the inside out decoding it's native YCbCr values back to RGB. Screen catures are dependent on a bunch of things, none of which are "GetGray calibration DVD" specific. The HTPC forum would be one of the better places to ask. I'm sure you can get help quick there. Bob is one of the folks who worked closely with me on this DVD in the beginning and he's one of the moderators there.

Thanks, Scott
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post #1106 of 2308 Old 08-17-2006, 05:04 PM
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Just burned the GetGray DVD and gave it a shot. Simple, easy to use and to the point.

The Brightness pattern is great! The Contrast pattern however, does not work with my display. I own a Samsung HL-S5688W and regardless of the contrast setting, all bars are visible. Not sure if this is due to the DLP tech...

Any ideas?
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post #1107 of 2308 Old 08-17-2006, 05:10 PM
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Just read a previous post....
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post #1108 of 2308 Old 08-18-2006, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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It's not the DLP per se, because all my DLP devices will "clip" the above white bars so they disappear. Seems to just be a mfgr's firmware implementation. But glad you found the previous answer anyway. I shoudl update the "manual" to reflect this point.
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post #1109 of 2308 Old 08-18-2006, 08:33 AM
 
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yeah some digitals will clip, some will colorshift. Some rare ones perhaps will do neither in which case a maximum setting is appropriate, but I-ve not runinto such a display yet, but im sure somewhere out there...
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post #1110 of 2308 Old 08-18-2006, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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You know, not to get off on a tangent, but if it dosent' clip the information, then it's still decoding a difference. I mean if it's not clipping, then it's not raising the contrst to where the say 240 information is no longer different than the 235 which in theory it should be. If a difference can be seen between 235 and 2% above, then the set isn't using its full bandwidth to produce white. On the other hand, if say 2 colors were still below saturation/clipping, while the 3rd maxed out, that woudl explain a colorshift. And maybe the firmware has a ceiling for any of the 3 colors. I wonder if the grayscale was perfect on such at set (at 100%) if it would then clip the bars. If not, then it's essentiall showing PC levels, or some portion, above video white. Maybe...
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