New calibration disc - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 2308 Old 10-04-2005, 03:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sirquack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I know this is in Beta, but will there eventually be a release that will explain how to use the various calibration tools? I downloaded it and really like the interface and ease of navigation, however, being a noob : not sure what I'm to do with all of the tests

___________
"Don't worry about the future, it is already tomorrow in Australia..."

My Website
Sirquack is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 2308 Old 10-04-2005, 04:39 PM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,460
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Quote:


I know this is in Beta, but will there eventually be a release that will explain how to use the various calibration tools? I downloaded it and really like the interface and ease of navigation, however, being a noob : not sure what I'm to do with all of the tests

I would qualify this disc as an "intermediate" tool. No disrespect intended, but if you don't know what these patterns are for, then this disc probably won't be of much use to you....right now.

The consumer discs I mentioned earlier (DVE, Avia, and S&V) all walk you through the most elementary checks and adjustments, and as such would be more appropriate for a beginner. But once you begin to delve into more "serious" calibration (that requiring measurement tools and a more thorough understanding of the calibration procedure), then this is where this disc comes into play. Once you have used something like a Gretag Macbeth EyeOne Pro Spectrophotometer with calibration software like UMR's i1 Pro DCS or ColorFacts, then this disc will make a LOT of sense to you.

This disc is still very handy even for the complete newbie, but I would recommend the purchase of one of the other three discs first, learning the basic calibration ins and outs from that disc, and then trying out Scott's disc. Or maybe Scott and the rest of us will help write up a beginner's guide which can be used for reference for all of the newbies who want to get started (hint, hint ) without first buying one of the "big three" discs.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #93 of 2308 Old 10-04-2005, 04:46 PM
Senior Member
 
mooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Austin TX, Pagosa Springs,CO
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob & Scott
This is what I have been waiting for and although I have DVE and Avia I would buy this one just to cut out all the unrelated topics in the previously mentioned disks.

The Beginners Guide will help me greatly as well.

Put me down as a buyer for the DVD when available.

Bob
mooney is offline  
post #94 of 2308 Old 10-04-2005, 05:31 PM
Advanced Member
 
yarrumc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ontario, CA.
Posts: 667
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirquack View Post

I know this is in Beta, but will there eventually be a release that will explain how to use the various calibration tools? I downloaded it and really like the interface and ease of navigation, however, being a noob : not sure what I'm to do with all of the tests


I am with ya... I wouldn't know what to do with them, once I was to display them. This is where this might be useful and cool for the videofile , but where a tutorial version could be cool, for a small fee.
yarrumc is offline  
post #95 of 2308 Old 10-04-2005, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvoncolln View Post

Hello there my friend.
It looks like we're both getting around.

The post following yours is correct. I had the same issues playing this disk from My HTPC as I did with the Avia disk. That is, I saw no bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. I haven't made any adjustments to the PC's setting yet to see if I can get it to even put out black & white let alone btb & wtw. I will in the next day or so. Please let me know what you get on your West 37 & PC.

I did just now used this on my IBM (its own flat panel) and was able to adjust it to see all four moving bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. This means it can display btb & wtw.

Nice looking disk!
I like the arrangement and simplicity. The Avia disk is agrevating to use.

John

John:

Thanks, for the compliment. One reason I added the horizontal stripe to my brightness and contrast moving bar patterns is exactly for situations like you describe. With it, you have a visual indicator (albeit small so as not to be intrusive or distracting) of *where* the moving bars would be if you could see them. That way, one can easily tell whether or not they are seeing what's supposed to be there.

Very glad to see that part of my pattern is sucessful in it's purpose.

Cheers, Scott
GetGray is offline  
post #96 of 2308 Old 10-04-2005, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooney View Post

Bob & Scott
This is what I have been waiting for and although I have DVE and Avia I would buy this one just to cut out all the unrelated topics in the previously mentioned disks.

The Beginners Guide will help me greatly as well.

Put me down as a buyer for the DVD when available.

It would be great to have input on what/how to use each pattern for. But, really, without tools like those described by Bob, a lot of this isn't very useful (i.e .gray windows, color windows). The fundamental adjustments ARE here however and a noob can use those just fine. Specifically contrast and brightness, Y/C delay if I add it, color and hue can all be done. And the grayscale can be viewed giving a visual indication of anything grossly out of whack.

I'll try to get some time to write up some basic usage instructions but contributions are welcome.
GetGray is offline  
post #97 of 2308 Old 10-04-2005, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Thanks Michael. Maybe on version 3+. My head is just now cooling off from findign the correct process for this one

I have a bunch of tools for SD mpeg, I do't have squat fod HD. The one HD encoder I do have access to was one that clipped BTB/WTW in SD. I don't have a clue how to make a .ts. But dr1394 (above) has several linked in his sig IIRC.
GetGray is offline  
post #98 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 01:17 AM
Member
 
riDuh7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In yo basement!
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvoncolln View Post

Hello there my friend.
It looks like we're both getting around.

The post following yours is correct. I had the same issues playing this disk from My HTPC as I did with the Avia disk. That is, I saw no bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. I haven't made any adjustments to the PC's setting yet to see if I can get it to even put out black & white let alone btb & wtw. I will in the next day or so. Please let me know what you get on your West 37 & PC.

I did just now used this on my IBM (its own flat panel) and was able to adjust it to see all four moving bars in the contrast & brightness paterns. This means it can display btb & wtw.

Nice looking disk!
I like the arrangement and simplicity. The Avia disk is agrevating to use.

John

Ha~! We meet again.
BTW, the Westy is incredible even with the factory settings. I'm so happy that I made the right move. However, I'm having difficult time setting up the calibration. It certainly is no easy part of getting the better picture. Perhaps I need to study a little more to obtain enough knowledge so that I can start calibrate my Westy to perfection. HAHA. That's too funny.
I'm going to try set it up again since I did mess up the first time and had default my settings. LOL. As I mentioned before, I'm a complete newbie and am trying very hard to make the best my new Westy. I LOVE IT.
Did I tell everyone this calibration disk seems very useful, but kind of hard to use for the newbies? Still, it seems like a very nice tool to use. I would like to purchase one as soon as it's released just like many others will.


Samsung LN52B750
Sony PlayStation 3
Dish Network Vip722
Onkyo HT-S9100 HTIB
riDuh7 is offline  
post #99 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 02:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
dr1394's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mizar 5
Posts: 3,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Ron, thanks very much for taking a look at them. Being a perfectionist, I'm concerned about the erorrs. Do you know if DVE has the corresponding small errors? Are these very small errors insignificant or are these bad? I don't want to release a disc with my mark on it that's not right. I would hope these errors would be very small and imperceptable from mortal instruments? Even better, I would be tickled to know the same errors existed on DVE/Avia Pro. If it's good enough for them then it's good enough for me. Along those lines, I see the same errors on RGB from DVE as are on mine (+/-1 here and there), but I have no way to measure the component values, that I know of

Here's the RBG and HSB values I get in Photoshop with my YCbCr to RGB conversion program. First line for each color is correct YCbCr values and second line is your values. I'm seeing +/- 3 RGB levels on your colors.

Yellow = 192, 192, 1 HSB = 60, 99, 75
Yellow = 190, 190, 3 HSB = 60, 98, 75

Cyan = 0, 191, 190 HSB = 180, 100, 75
Cyan = 3, 190, 190 HSB = 180, 98, 75

Green = 0, 191, 0 HSB = 120, 100, 75
Green = 3, 188, 3 HSB = 120, 98, 74

Magenta = 191, 0, 192 HSB = 300, 100, 75
Magenta = 188, 3, 188 HSB = 300, 98, 74

Red = 191, 0, 1 HSB = 0, 100, 75
Red = 188, 1, 1 HSB = 0, 99, 74

Blue = 0, 1, 192 HSB = 240, 100, 75
Blue = 1, 1, 188 HSB = 240, 99, 74

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

.bmp would be great!

Thanks again Ron!

The SD Y/C delay pattern is ready. I also have some resolution burst patterns.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
dr1394 is offline  
post #100 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 02:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
CT_Wiebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 6,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Just burned a DVD (Nero Ultra 6 - Recode to DVD), and ran it on my PC's monitor (to verify that I burned it correctly). It worked . I had a few problems with Nero, until I tried its Recode option.

I found that my PC monitor (19 Samsung SyncMaster 930B) was fine on the black level but it crushed whites badly (I guess I'll have to calibrate it a little - that should be much easier with your DVD though). I preferred AVIA for a quick calibration, but it wasn't really that easy for a PC monitor, for Contrast & Brightness levels.

One suggestion, on the 10% (soon to be 5% ?) step gray windows, it would be nice (not necessary, just nice) to have the labels bottom out at 10% and top out at 90% so they can be read. As it is, the 0% label and 100% label can't be read at all. I didn't realize what I was looking at, until I got to the next screen (then the light bulb lit).

My next step (tomorrow, I hope) is to put it into my DVD player and try it on my PJ (on my temporary HC3 LCD, until my MT700 DLP gets its lamp replaced).

riDuh7 - I would suggest you use AVIA first (at least to get the colors correct and an approximate white level and black level - I used my eyeballs for those, since my ATI 9600xt card didn't want to cooperate with AVIA - or DVE). Then use Scott's tools to set the blacks & whites. I may not be able to get the whites completely correct due to the 9600xt card behavior.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
CT_Wiebe is offline  
post #101 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

Here's the RBG and HSB values I get in Photoshop with my YCbCr to RGB conversion program. First line for each color is correct YCbCr values and second line is your values. I'm seeing +/- 3 RGB levels on your colors.

Ron, I expect some of the error is that whatever you are using to capture the RGB is converting back to PC space. Becasue the RGB's were created with 16 for "off" not 0 or which your output appears to be converting to. When I capture them they come out as 16 +/-1 as does DVE Pro.

Can you check your DVE pro disc's color using the same procedure used to check mine?
GetGray is offline  
post #102 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 05:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Vern Dias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Allen TX USA
Posts: 4,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
GetGray, you beat me to it...... While I was composing and re-checking you snuck one in on me....

Ron,

I would question the accuracy of your numbers as the data encoded on the test disc should be reproduced as video levels starting at 16 for black and ending at 235 for white. It looks like something in your environment is expanding these to PC levels, possibly introducing some inaccuracy in the process.

75% of 240 is 180. Anything higher than 180 has had it's levels tampered with. Anything lower than 16, ditto.

The only environment I completely trust today to preserve video levels properly is the NVidia decoder / Driver / Video card.

My numbers are on the third line, taken directly from the video buffer and also saved as a PNG and viewed in Photoshop7 where the HSB #'s were obtained. The RGB levels were also verified in Photoshop.

Yellow = 192, 192, 1 HSB = 60, 99, 75
Yellow = 190, 190, 3 HSB = 60, 98, 75
Yellow = 179, 180, 16 HSB = 60, 91, 71

Cyan = 0, 191, 190 HSB = 180, 100, 75
Cyan = 3, 190, 190 HSB = 180, 98, 75
Cyan = 16, 180, 181 HSB = 180, 91, 71

Green = 0, 191, 0 HSB = 120, 100, 75
Green = 3, 188, 3 HSB = 120, 98, 74
Green = 16, 179, 16 HSB = 120, 91, 70

Magenta = 191, 0, 192 HSB = 300, 100, 75
Magenta = 188, 3, 188 HSB = 300, 98, 74
Magenta = 180, 17, 180 HSB = 300, 91, 71

Red = 191, 0, 1 HSB = 0, 100, 75
Red = 188, 1, 1 HSB = 0, 99, 74
Red = 180, 16, 16 HSB = 0, 91, 71

Blue = 0, 1, 192 HSB = 240, 100, 75
Blue = 1, 1, 188 HSB = 240, 99, 74
Blue = 17, 16, 181 HSB = 240, 91, 71



Again, no more than +/-1 deviation from the the proper values. The black/white checkerboard checks out at 0/254.

Environment: TT 2.2 (no, it's not generally available yet), VMR9, NVidia 4020.183 decoders, NVidia 5950 Ultra video card, XP, SP2.

Vern
Vern Dias is offline  
post #103 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 06:50 AM
Member
 
Vagabond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Scott, excellent work. Exactly what I've been looking for - a quick fix no nonsense disc! I'm an avid amateur with both the old VE, Avia (consumer) and DVE (for PAL stuff), but either there's too much or too difficult to navigate.

No, I haven't downloaded your files yet, waiting for the .iso, but then I'll be happy to Paypal you. The Y/C delay pattern, though, would be as you said a useful and nice feature.

Great work!

It's not magic. It's science.
Vagabond is offline  
post #104 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 07:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary Lightfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 4,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 39
I've had a quick look at it and it does seem very useful indeed. I've yet to try it for a calibration run, but it could be the alternative to DVE for those that hate the navigation aspect of it.

The red ramp is going to be very useful for visually finding the crush point so that you don't run out above 90IRE. Thanks for putting that in.

Gary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is online now  
post #105 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 07:35 AM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,460
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 110
Another question: Should colors be mixed using 16 for black or 0 for black? If 0 were used, it seems to me that it would be "safer", but I don't know if the BTB level would affect how the color is perceived.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #106 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
OK guys: I'd like some opinions. 1st remember the objective here is simplicity and easy navigation.

First, I plan to rename my "extra patterns" main menu item to "advanced patterns"

1. For the additional 5% step gray windows I'd like to add, I can:
a) add them to the existing gray window sequence.
Pros: simple,
Cons: won't align with someone wanting a 10% step sequence.
Workaround: manually skip the 5% patterns if you don't want to use them.

OR

b) under the advanced patterns submenu, have a submenu and corresponding sequence with 0-100% in steps of 5.
Pros: separates the 5% step sequence from the 10% step sequence.
Cons: makes the disc one step more complicated, for those who want a 5% step on the grayscales, it will not be in the "main sequence" that exists now as one continuous chain of the normal patterns.

2. Labels for Window gray patterns:

Currently I have the set to be the same level as the pattern itself. i.e. if the window is 5%, then the text is gray and also 5%. I originally had the 0% (level 16 black) window with 5% text so you could still see the text.

My logic was to keep the text the same color so as not to have ANSI contrast "spillover" from brighter text onto the darker pattern. This necessitated a "unlabelled" 0% window.

I had one person ask to be albe to see the text brighter, but probably didn't understand the reasons I didn't. So there they are.

Anyone disagree with the logic and think I should brighten the text labels on low level patterns? If yes, why?

3. If I add resolution and Y/C delay, where in the sequence of patterns would be best? As is, one see:
A general gray ramp, FYI only at this point
One would would set black, white
Next Color, hue.
Next comes primary/secondary colors. If the display can do it you would adjust primaries here, if not you would measure them here.
Next is the gray patterns.

I think I will add another gray ramp at the end of the gray patterns.

For the gray patterns, I can make them loop. That is for example, start at grayscale/ramp, then 0%, 5%, etc to 100%. Pressing "next" take you back around to grayscale, 0%, etc. Menu takes you back to main menu. This would only work if the gray windows were at the end of the chain of patterns.

Opinions?

Scott
GetGray is offline  
post #107 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

The red ramp is going to be very useful for visually finding the crush point so that you don't run out above 90IRE. Thanks for putting that in.

You are welcome. I believe it was from you that I learned that would be a useful thing, so you get credit for it .

Now that I sucked up some, maybe you would be willing to contribute a brief "how-to" for that pattern's usage that I can add to the readme
GetGray is offline  
post #108 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

Another question: Should colors be mixed using 16 for black or 0 for black? If 0 were used, it seems to me that it would be "safer", but I don't know if the BTB level would affect how the color is perceived.

FWIW, I chose 16 as the "off" level on color patterns (i.e red= 235,16,16) since that's what the "other guys" did. I figured not setting the "floor" at 16 would cause miscolorations if the device's blac level was not set perfectly. Otherwise, the level of the colro component might rise, but due to the off componenet being below black, it woudl still be below black thus incorrectly affecting the intended colors balance. Especially after it goes through RGB->YCbCr->RGB digital calculations and transformations. But again, main reason was I believe that is the most correct thing to do.
GetGray is offline  
post #109 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 09:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Vern Dias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Allen TX USA
Posts: 4,978
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
GetGray:

Leave the black at 16. That is standard DVD video black.
Or, alternately, add another set of patterns at PC levels as a second level menu.

I agree that the 5% patterns should not be interleaved, but should be under a separate chapter.

I would think that as long as menus are not more than two deep (Main - Basic) Main - PC Levels) (Main - Advanced) etc and that all patterns are chaptered within each second level menu, people should not have issues with navigation. Maybe 3 deep would be acceptable.

Personally, I have no issues navigating any of the existing test DVD's, but I can see where automated measurement systems could easily have problems dealing with the Title/Menu/Chapter process.

Vern
Vern Dias is offline  
post #110 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 09:57 AM
Super Moderator
 
Bob Sorel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 8,460
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked: 110
1. b. (obviously, for my own selfish interests, as it works best with Jeff's software ) . I don't know how much work is involved, but maybe it would be easy to simply have two "calibration sequences" - one with 10% gradations and the other with 5% steps. I don't know a heck of a lot about authoring, but I think it is simply a matter of using the same encoded video, but writing two different "scripts" detailing the sequence of events. Isn't that the kind of thing they do with alternate endings and extended editions for movies?
2. If the text is far from the actual window, then spillover should not be an issue. I still like having the text at the same level as the window (as a safeguard), but as one poster recommended, I would probably limit the text to 10% at the low end, just for readability.
3. As long as there are no interruptions between the color windows and the gray windows, then putting in the Y/C delay pattern anywhere else should be fine. I would probably put it after the hue pattern and just before the primary/secondary color windows.

Quote:
FWIW, I chose 16 as the "off" level on color patterns (i.e red= 235,16,16) since that's what the "other guys" did. I figured not setting the "floor" at 16 would cause miscolorations if the device's blac level was not set perfectly.

Got it. I just wanted to see if anyone had a different opinion on this.
Bob Sorel is offline  
post #111 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 10:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary Lightfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 4,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Hi GG,

OK, this is how I'd use it:

After setting the white and black levels first:

Display the red ramp pattern and increase the red contrast adjustment (sometimes referred to as red gain) until the last two increments blend together. Then decrease the adjustment until the last increment becomes just visible again. Make a note of this setting (i.e Red Contrast = -5) and when adjusting the RGB contrast/gain control during grey scale calibration make sure you don't go above that value. You should be able to confirm the setting if your using a colorimiter or similar with something like Colorfacts. After completing the greyscale, you should have it nice and flat up to 100IRE.

Hopefully that will be OK, but if Kras or others wish to make any corrections/additions then please feel free to do so.

Gary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is online now  
post #112 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 11:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ursa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Inner Loop, Houston
Posts: 5,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My recommendations:
1) Use BTB for the "off" value for the primaries and secondaries, e.g., 1. This is the blackest legal video code and should under no circumstances round to being within the visible code range.

2) Text labels should not compromise the target APL. Using an idealized gamma curve, and a 50:1 instantaneous CR limit, means you have +/-20% on text from the current value (e.g., digital 16 could have up to digital 60 for its text label color).

Later,
Bill
Ursa is offline  
post #113 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
I'm sticking with 16 for "off" on color patterns. Becasue worst case, I can stand behind that by pointing to the other respected discs and say that's how they did it. Many already don't trust Avia for color errors, and they *are* there. It goes to be expected that one might not trust my disc, but if mine is the same as the pro disc sets then there is no argument to be made. Unless one wants to argue the pro level discs are wrong, but I've never seen that. They are universally accepted as correct, so mne is, too. By that comparison. If I go off on my own I'd have to defend the reasoing which I don't want to be in the position of doing. So, for no more reason than that's the way they did it, I'm sticking to 16.

But for pattern background color, I'm flexible and lean toward black(1). Of course I'd have to re-do them all so I'll just say maybe on those.

As for text labels, if they are matched to the pattern, then they are visible with 0% risk of contamination of level pattern/window. The pattern is visible after all. Except for 0% of course and I can live with one unlabelled window. For above 0%, if the pattern is not visible, the user skipped step 1 on setting levels and looking at gray patterns is a waste of time. I mean normally the next window is 10% and that should certaintly be visible. An advanced user might be using 5% (also unlikely since hardly any of our instruments will read that low). But an advanced user will definately have the black level set before continuing to this point and at the very low APL shoudl be able to see the 5% label.

That said, really any percent gray window patterns below say 10-20 are of little use to anyone really, but there for completeness and continuity. Unless you have a $10k light meter.

If I move the labels to the lower right corner, etc. then I have to deal with staying in the title safe zones to avoid being cropped, although for my displays that's not an issue. I still think that even at the lower right corner on a big screen, for a PJ even brighter text could bleed some stray light onto the image which is the paramount concern. I'll defer to absolute accuracy over any labeling for sure.

I could do voice labels, but since it repeats that would drive everyone insane "0 percent, 0 percent, 0 percent, 0 percent..."
GetGray is offline  
post #114 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 12:07 PM
umr
AVS Club Gold
 
umr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 10,136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

...That said, really any percent gray window patterns below say 10-20 are of little use to anyone really, but there for completeness and continuity. Unless you have a $10k light meter.....

That is not true. I have always read to 0% level with my equipment and I am not using a $10,000 light meter.
umr is offline  
post #115 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Meier View Post

I have always read to 0% level with my equipment

OK, then I stand corrected! and they stay (not that I was taking them out anyway). But I still think having low level (equal to pattern) labels to be the the safest plan.

BTW, I rounded up a i1 for myself, I need to get with you to activate my Accucal software.

Best, Scott
GetGray is offline  
post #116 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 03:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dr1394's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mizar 5
Posts: 3,149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Ron, I expect some of the error is that whatever you are using to capture the RGB is converting back to PC space. Becasue the RGB's were created with 16 for "off" not 0 or which your output appears to be converting to. When I capture them they come out as 16 +/-1 as does DVE Pro.

Can you check your DVE pro disc's color using the same procedure used to check mine?

Sorry, I didn't realize you were using video RGB. No problemo. In fact, it's good that I found out, because my Y/C pattern .bmp I was going to send you is in PC video levels.

This is exactly why I author and verify in YCbCr space. No ambiguities.

I'll post the video RGB values later today.

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
dr1394 is offline  
post #117 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 03:33 PM
umr
AVS Club Gold
 
umr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 10,136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

OK, then I stand corrected! and they stay (not that I was taking them out anyway). But I still think having low level (equal to pattern) labels to be the the safest plan.

BTW, I rounded up a i1 for myself, I need to get with you to activate my Accucal software.

Best, Scott

Scott,

Just drop me an email and I'll send you your license key.
umr is offline  
post #118 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 03:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
CT_Wiebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 6,437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Scott, I have no problems with leaving the gray step labels the same as the window level. It was just a suggestion. I agree with your arguments 100% - no label change is definitely preferred, especially, if there is any chance of compromizing levels.

As for where to put the 5% steps, for my use, I have no preference.

Don't forget to add the Green ramps and Blue ramps to your existing Red ramp pattern.

I really apreciate your efforts! It puts the finishing touch on the job of doing my own calibrating. My "donation" is on it's way.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
CT_Wiebe is offline  
post #119 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Club Gold
 
GetGray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mid-South USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Thanks Claus for yours and everyone's input. Not to worry, the other 2 color ramps are a done deal and easy to do from my gray pattern.

Don't anyone mistake my comments as defensive. I'm just laying out the logic I used to make the patterns. I didn't color a single spot without putting some thought into it. Some of these items are small details but that's what will make it the best. Just want to be sure none of my logic was just plain wrong, or I missed a better way to do it.

No one has a better idea on color bars? Kras' eluded to some but they were proprietary and I haven't seen them myself.

Cheers,
Scott
GetGray is offline  
post #120 of 2308 Old 10-05-2005, 07:16 PM
Member
 
riDuh7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In yo basement!
Posts: 73
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

riDuh7 - I would suggest you use AVIA first (at least to get the colors correct and an approximate white level and black level - I used my eyeballs for those, since my ATI 9600xt card didn't want to cooperate with AVIA - or DVE). Then use Scott's tools to set the blacks & whites. I may not be able to get the whites completely correct due to the 9600xt card behavior.

Thanks for your advise. I do use GeForce 6800GT and is working great with my Westinghouse 37 incher. BTW, AVIA... what is that and where can I get it? I assume that it is a calibration tool that you pop in to a DVD player... correct? I've heard lots of it and never had a chance to look into it... Any further advise?

Alan


Samsung LN52B750
Sony PlayStation 3
Dish Network Vip722
Onkyo HT-S9100 HTIB
riDuh7 is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off