New calibration disc - Page 64 - AVS Forum
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post #1891 of 2307 Old 03-15-2008, 07:14 AM
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CT_Wiebe I appreciate the discussion on the subjects.

2. Thanks for the explanation of the process.
(out of order on purpose)
4. My info on the Panny's processing comes from the users forum here on AVS, and specifically from info provided by a Panny concierge/tech from Canada. It seems to be accepted knowledge on that forum, so I am only repeating it and not swearing to it

5. Glad the Belle-Nuit was included, helps me pick the best output for my system.

3. Ahhhh. This is the point of my post. To me, what I see in the Gray Scale Ramp pattern does not match the other grayscale-based patterns were BTB is concerned when using HDMI. Could it be due to the different average picture levels of the patterns when combined with a floating black level (I've seen some discussion of FBL in my TV's thread)? If this is the case, why only on HDMI?
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post #1892 of 2307 Old 03-15-2008, 04:20 PM
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You're welcome. Glad to be of, at least, some assistance. The following is in your order:

4. I suspected that, from what you said. I wasn't sure that the Panny did that kind of scaling (it does tend to lose a little detail due to the double processing). If it's done right, then you likely won't see any artifacts.

3. That is the real puzzle. There is not too much difference in APL between the Belle-Nuit and the Gray Scale Ramps (those are at 50% APL). The Belle-Nuit seems to be slightly higher, but not significantly so. However, there is a difference in how these patterns were generated. The Belle-Nuit pattern was obtained, as is, from the author, whereas, the Gray Scale Ramps were precision generated by Scott, himself. Therefore, differences between the two results are plausible. I've never looked for them, since the primary use of the Belle-Nuit pattern is to check the de-interlacing performance (the blocks labeled "4", "3", "2", and "1", from left to right).

NOTE: This type of discrepancy is also related with trying to put "everything" into one pattern.

There is, of course, a large difference in the APLs of the Brightness (APL = about digital 16) and Contrast (APL = about digital 235) calibration patterns (which makes them easier to get right). This allowed me to correctly set the controls on my Mitsubishi HC3 projector to maximize its poor contrast ratio, which I was unable to do with either the AVIA or DVE discs (their respective patterns have a 50% APL).

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post #1893 of 2307 Old 03-18-2008, 03:26 PM
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Hi all, I just wanted to say that I downloaded GetGray and ImgBurn and created a usable DVD on the first try. Now all I gotta do is figure out why our newish Philips LCD panel continues to display digital levels above reference white (digital level 235) no matter how I set the contrast. More tinkering!

--
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post #1894 of 2307 Old 03-18-2008, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky JS View Post

Now all I gotta do is figure out why our newish Philips LCD panel continues to display digital levels above reference white (digital level 235) no matter how I set the contrast. More tinkering!

That is normal behaviour for many displays.
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post #1895 of 2307 Old 03-18-2008, 04:36 PM
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Thanks, jvincent. Looks like headroom above white is sometimes used, so clipping would be a Bad Thing.
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post #1896 of 2307 Old 03-18-2008, 04:38 PM
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A good place to start are the stickied threads at the top of the forum.
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post #1897 of 2307 Old 03-23-2008, 02:56 PM
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I am preparing to buy the Avia II calibration disc for my Epson 1080UB video settings. I understand there is also audio calibration on the disc as well. Is this something that I need to use if my Onkyo 705 already has the Audussey calibration system? How do I ensure I am getting the best audio for my various sources (DISH HD DVR, A-35 HD-DVD). Thanks!
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post #1898 of 2307 Old 03-23-2008, 08:53 PM
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MRDC777 -- You don't need a video calibration disc with audio calibration on it (like AVIA). Your Audussey system on your Onkyo is far superior and is automatic (otherwise you would have to buy a Sound Level Meter in addition to AVIA, or DVD).

BTW, I believe that the Audussey system also has a provision for manual adjustment. So you could still get a Sound Level meter (the Radio Shack analog meter is recommended) and do some audio tweaking if you think it's needed.

The GetGray Caldisc and your Audussey is all you need to get a good calibration of your system. If you also have a Blu-ray player, then you also should get the AVS HD 709 (free, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496) software (burn it to a DVD-R, just like you would for the GetGray Caldsic - using ImgBurn, also free). The GetGray is for SD-DVD playback and the grayscale is the same but the color settings are encoded as Rec. 601 (HD uses Rec. 709, which is why you need both).

Download the ReadMe file (for GetGray) from www.calibrate.tv, unzip it and read it. If it sounds like you understand how to use it, there would be no need for you to also buy AVIA. The GetGray disc is also more accurate, IMHO.

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post #1899 of 2307 Old 03-23-2008, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

MRDC777 -- You don't need a video calibration disc with audio calibration on it (like AVIA). Your Audussey system on your Onkyo is far superior and is automatic (otherwise you would have to buy a Sound Level Meter in addition to AVIA, or DVD).

BTW, I believe that the Audussey system also has a provision for manual adjustment. So you could still get a Sound Level meter (the Radio Shack analog meter is recommended) and do some audio tweaking if you think it's needed.

The GetGray Caldisc and your Audussey is all you need to get a good calibration of your system. If you also have a Blu-ray player, then you also should get the AVS HD 709 (free, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496) software (burn it to a DVD-R, just like you would for the GetGray Caldsic - using ImgBurn, also free). The GetGray is for SD-DVD playback and the grayscale is the same but the color settings are encoded as Rec. 601 (HD uses Rec. 709, which is why you need both).

Download the ReadMe file (for GetGray) from www.calibrate.tv, unzip it and read it. If it sounds like you understand how to use it, there would be no need for you to also buy AVIA. The GetGray disc is also more accurate, IMHO.


CT--Thanks again for all your help and feedback. You are very patient with us newbies! I will continue to use the Audyssey for audio calibration and look into the GetGray for video calibration. The only reason I was leaning toward the AVIA was I thought it would be more user friendly for beginners. I'll take your advice and download the Read Me first to see if the GetGray will work for me.

Thanks again!
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post #1900 of 2307 Old 03-23-2008, 11:09 PM
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MRDC777 -- Yes AVIA is user friendly, but if you think you can use the GetGray disc (and I think you can), it's the better way to go. If you do get it and find that you need help, feel free to send me a PM, and I will try to assist you over the hurdles.

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post #1901 of 2307 Old 03-25-2008, 05:03 PM
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I just donated so I should expect an email with a download link right? I have had DVE but could never work the color filter quite right, I like the 5% RGB of this calibration software. I have a Mits HC3000 and have borrowed some others user settings and really had it looking very nice but still want to set it up for my room. My DVE disk had a RGB color filter in it that I should be able to use with this one right? Anyway hope I can burn it right I have Vista but have not burned anything since I got it, I have a Plexor DVD burner but crappy Memorex DVD-R's so well see how it goes... I'm ready for some tweaking since I hated the DVE disk.
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post #1902 of 2307 Old 03-25-2008, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

MRDC777 If it sounds like you understand how to use it, there would be no need for you to also buy AVIA. The GetGray disc is also more accurate, IMHO.


CT,
Would you mind elaborating how you came to this conclusion? Thanks.

This bloody Redcoat said I was a terrorist.

Somewhere along the way I become an Elitist who looks down on the
cheap bastards who call themselves my AV Hobbyist peers.
I am not prepared.
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post #1903 of 2307 Old 03-25-2008, 09:57 PM
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I have a Bravo D1 DVD player and I just bought the disc but Im shocked to find everything dead on out of the box. The moving 2% and 5% Maximum White and Maximum Black and the combined window show Contrast and Brightness should be 0 and 0. At 6500K the RGB ramps all ramp up with no clippiing at either end of the gray scale. The blue flashing squares show as one solid uniform blue under my filter and the 75% background color box show perfect blend at the 75% level and brighter at 100% and darker at 50% and 25%. The red filter showed proper accross the board. the only one that was off was green but I'm red/green color blind and changeing the green contrast and green brightness under user had no effect on the green level(to make them match). I was under the impression that the Mits where not accurate right out of the box, but this one seems perfect to my understanding of how the disc works, I had no clipping/crussing in the white and blacks and the clor ramps didn't clip at either end and the blue level was perfectly blended. I can tell while watch a DVD that its dead on but when watch HDTV(David Letterman/Leno) I can't tell if its accurate. I'm watch both via HDMI should I have the gamma set to Video when watching HDTV? So Im a little confused but OK with it, after checking and rechecking, and rechecking HDMI from my Bravo D1 was perfect out of the box. I have 950 hours on my bulb. Does anyone know what the levels are regarding the D1 compared to A HDTV STB via HDMI. It a Samsung H260F.



The Disc itself is a masterpiece for first time users, I learned it all in 15 minutes and while not overly complex the RGB ramps at least told me I wasn't clipping any colors. DVE couldn't tell me that. At simple additive would be RGB gradients and 1%,2%,3%,4% and 5% bars for RGB if thats possible. The installer he suggest is the way to go mine worked everything in the first pass and I have Vista.
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post #1904 of 2307 Old 03-25-2008, 11:07 PM
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ThomasV555 -- When Scott was in the development of the GetGray software, he spent an extraordinary amount of time making sure that all of his patterns were precise and maintained this accuracy throughout the encoding process. This accuracy was also verified by AVS members who are also calibration professionals.

I own the AVIA "Guide to Home Theater", DVE, DV, the original Joe Kane Calibration Laserdisc and other DVD Calibration discs. The GetGray Caldisc, is easy to use and has all the necessary patterns for video calibration, and none of the extras. It is faster and easier to use than the others, if the user is familiar with how to perform video calibration. It is also set up so that it can be used with automated measurement tools.

I, personally, was able to maximize the black level and Contrast Ratio performance, with the GetGray Caldisc, on one of my PJs, which was not possible with either the AVIA or DVE DVDs. I no longer use either of those calibration tools.

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post #1905 of 2307 Old 04-04-2008, 08:49 AM
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Good morning,
Does the getgray grayscale patterns adhere to the 16-235 standard? 0 IRE=16 100 IRE=235...

Do the primaries and secondaries colors adhere to the standard 16-235?

Thanks
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post #1906 of 2307 Old 04-04-2008, 09:01 AM
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The disc is authored to digital video standards.

I.e. 0% stimulus = 16 and 100% stimulus = 235. IRE is properly used only for analog systems.

For the colours, did you mean to ask if it was Rec 601 or Rec 709? Since it is SD-DVD it uses Rec 601.
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post #1907 of 2307 Old 04-04-2008, 09:27 AM
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For the colors I was meaning what values were used to build full color (example Red: R=235, G=0,B=0).... I'ma asking because the HCFR DVD patterns have strange values... at least with the patterns I've tested, but I may be wrong...
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post #1908 of 2307 Old 04-04-2008, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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In you example 235,0,0 would produce illegal YCbCr translations IIRC. My disc properly uses 235, 16, 16 for red, prior to it's conversion to digital YCbCr. Similarly for other colors. Same as Avia Pro and DVE Pro.
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post #1909 of 2307 Old 04-05-2008, 01:22 AM
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Getgray, yestarday, i've bought your disc.
In the meanwhile, just to keep the discussion on an academic point of view, did you test hcfrs patterns? they look targeted for a 0-255 reference, nevertheless it looks like they have some small errors..

I'm asking because I've read somewhere that you've builded the getgray disc because you've discovered som errors in other pattern discs.... was it HCFR?

This is what I've done:
- demuxed the VOBs to mpeg2
- opened the mpeg2 with virtualdub
- saved the patterns sequence as .tga files
- measured the values in photoshop

If the above is a correct process then the disc is definitelly targeted for 0-255 and has some small errors..... and maybe the HCFR software is makeing some compensations to 16-235 internally??

Hope to receive your instructions to download the DVD and.....getgray!
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post #1910 of 2307 Old 04-05-2008, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

did you test hcfrs patterns? they look targeted for a 0-255 reference, nevertheless it looks like they have some small errors..

No, it did not exist at the time and I would not have anyway. I only tested the Pro level commercial DVD's and the more popularconsumer DVD's. Those were only done as "sanity checks" to guarantee that mine was correct. Avia (consumer ver) was the one with the less accurate patterns IIRC.
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post #1911 of 2307 Old 04-05-2008, 01:10 PM
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I've got the disk. The only concern is about the color sequence, that is in HCFR you have RGBYCM........ will have a go anyway......
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post #1912 of 2307 Old 04-05-2008, 01:39 PM
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I've demuxed the disc and getting sort of strange 0-255 with some 253 or 254 values.

At this point It's obvious that the demuxing process or the targa conversion is wrong.

So the test I did with HCFR DVD is wrong too!
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post #1913 of 2307 Old 04-05-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Getgray, yestarday, i've bought your disc.
In the meanwhile, just to keep the discussion on an academic point of view, did you test hcfrs patterns? they look targeted for a 0-255 reference, nevertheless it looks like they have some small errors..

I'm asking because I've read somewhere that you've builded the getgray disc because you've discovered som errors in other pattern discs.... was it HCFR?

This is what I've done:
- demuxed the VOBs to mpeg2
- opened the mpeg2 with virtualdub
- saved the patterns sequence as .tga files
- measured the values in photoshop

If the above is a correct process then the disc is definitelly targeted for 0-255 and has some small errors..... and maybe the HCFR software is makeing some compensations to 16-235 internally??

Hope to receive your instructions to download the DVD and.....getgray!

Your computer is converting the Video Black (digital 16 = 0% stimulus) to digital 0 and Video White (digital 235, 100% stimulus) to digital 255. The software in your PC is doing the conversion incorrectly.

The accuracy of the GetGray patterns have been throughly checked by GetGray and other professionals (AVS Members) - this was discussed in the early posts in this thread. They have the correct video values. HCFR on the other hand was created to be used from a PC. The GetGray Caldisc was designed to be used from a DVD player (it can be played in a PC, directly from the VOB files, but are only correct when the player software and the video card are set up correctly).

The 0-255 range is what is used in computers and 16-235 is what is used in correctly mastered video (YCbCr encoding - that is what is on the GetGray disc).

Have you read the GetGrayReadme "instructions"? It tells you how to use the software. You can download and extract it from the GetGrayReadme.zip file on the www.calibrate.tv web page.

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post #1914 of 2307 Old 04-05-2008, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

I've demuxed the disc and getting sort of strange 0-255 with some 253 or 254 values.

At this point It's obvious that the demuxing process or the targa conversion is wrong.

So the test I did with HCFR DVD is wrong too!

Yes, the process you used was incorrect. Your use of HCFR could be incorrect also, if you didn't use it right. You need to follow the instructions, for either software.

As I said in my previous post, you need to have the PC hardware and software set with the correct options, since the video grayscale range is different for the PC use and for video use.

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post #1915 of 2307 Old 04-05-2008, 02:21 PM
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Well, about the pattern sequence, I was thinking that each calibration software should have a customizable color sequence, to be pattern adaptive.

About getgray: the patterns are quite bigger than HCFR's; this could mean 2 things:

1) lower temperature drifts on high intensity patterns (good)

2) Higher power drain (the infamous APL problem on plasmas).... but as many people are using getgray out there and no complains about it.... must be allright!

thanks for explaining
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post #1916 of 2307 Old 04-06-2008, 04:13 PM
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Just dropping a note to say that I got this today. Thanks much Scott. For full disclosure, I already own Avia/Avia II, and have used Tom Huffman's free DVD as well as HCFR's PAL DVD. This is the only disc I've found with color ramps for the three primaries from 0 - 100 percent brightness - which I need to find out exactly what a particular control on my Samsung LCD is doing.

I see what blutarsky means. The pattern sequence in HCFR is different for the secondaries when doing a measurement run. It seems easy enough to work around using the back button. I will say I also like that the pattern stays in place for as long as one needs it to. One of the things I do not like about Avia II is the lack of that feature. And on some of its patterns the pause button does not seem to work.

cheers,


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post #1917 of 2307 Old 04-10-2008, 07:12 AM
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Is it a waste of time to use GetGrey without a colorimeter?

Can I get close by eyeballing it with my Panasonic TH-PX4280U?

Thanks
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post #1918 of 2307 Old 04-10-2008, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolAudFool View Post

Is it a waste of time to use GetGrey without a colorimeter?

Can I get close by eyeballing it with my Panasonic TH-PX4280U?

Thanks

It's definitely not a waste of time. How close you get will be determined by how good your eyeballs are.

The features that make GetGray good/usefull whether you are using a meter or not, are (in no particular order):

1. Accurate patterns.
2. Complete set of patterns for brightness, contrast, colour, greyscale.
3. Simple and intuitive navigation.
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post #1919 of 2307 Old 04-10-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

It's definitely not a waste of time. How close you get will be determined by how good your eyeballs are.

The features that make GetGray good/usefull whether you are using a meter or not, are (in no particular order):

1. Accurate patterns.
2. Complete set of patterns for brightness, contrast, colour, greyscale.
3. Simple and intuitive navigation.

Thanks jvincent, and for your answer yesterday as well.

From going through the documentation, I had a question: when calibrating the 5% step grey ramps, what control is used? Brightness? Contrast? Both? I know GetGrey assumes a certain level of knowledge, so I understand why they would not have such basic info.

I think I will "donate" this weekend. I'll post any more questions I have.

Thanks again!
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post #1920 of 2307 Old 04-10-2008, 09:37 AM
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Thanks, jvincent, and for your answer yesterday as well.

Think I'll donate this weekend. I'll post any more questions I have and let you know how good my eyeballs are...

Thanks again!
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