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post #181 of 2308 Old 10-22-2005, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

GetGray,

What most of us (in PAL land) are looking for is a PAL disk just like this. DVE PAL is the only game in town these days.

Any chance a PAL version (720x576/50HZ) is also in the works?

BTW, are you going to publically offer an ISO of the disk or will it eventually be for sale?

check

http://www.peterfinzel.de/

complete with bluefilter

HTPC - ISF- Panasonic TH-42PHD8UK
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post #182 of 2308 Old 10-22-2005, 06:15 AM
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I have the PF disk and it's great for ISF calibration. Much better than DVE IMHO and far easier to navigate - and that includes the fact it's in German!

Gary

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post #183 of 2308 Old 10-22-2005, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

I have the PF disk and it's great for ISF calibration. Much better than DVE IMHO and far easier to navigate - and that includes the fact it's in German!

This is a sad, sad commentary! And completely believable!
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post #184 of 2308 Old 10-22-2005, 07:15 AM
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Ursa,

See what I mean?

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
www.hometheater.co.il
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post #185 of 2308 Old 10-22-2005, 02:16 PM
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I can't read german, but i saw the words "False Contour" in the description of the PF-Test disc - anyone know what that is? That would be awesome to have in a DLP calibration disc!
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post #186 of 2308 Old 10-22-2005, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


...I have the PF disk and it's great for ISF calibration. Much better than DVE IMHO and far easier to navigate - and that includes the fact it's in German!

So don't worry about a PAL version of mine then?
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post #187 of 2308 Old 10-22-2005, 05:42 PM
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I think your disk is going to be even better, so please don't rule out PAL users!

It's just that I find it much quicker and easier to use than DVE. I would think someone who is familiar with DVE will have no trouble using it though, but for someone that doesn't use it that often PF was far easier to understand and navigate through.

Gary.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #188 of 2308 Old 10-23-2005, 01:48 AM
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GetGray,

On the contrary, we desparately need something better than we currently have access to...

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #189 of 2308 Old 10-23-2005, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys:

Just another update. I'm whittling away at it. Got a good bit done this weekend. Lots of little details.

I get a lot of PM's wanting to see what's on it. So I made a simpler way to show the patterns to non beta testers without letting any wrong or in-progress patterns out in the wild (via Beta discs). Here's a link:
LINK TO PATTERNS:
http://www.calibrate.tv/beta3.html (Can't believe that domain name was available)

I fixed the antique background pattern to "fit" 16x9 and the circles will now be round not oval (I had to take a little poetic license with the original image to make it be a 16x9 pattern, or mostly).

All primary color ramps are complete.

Modified the overscan pattern.

Tweaked levels here and there.

I have a decent audio program (Adobe Audition). It came with my video editing package and I haven't a clue how to use it though so it may be a little while before I can get it to do tones (for the automated grayscale and the lipsymc patterns). But I should be able to run that to ground with some work.

Once I get the disc actually authored, I'll send out some links to the Beta testers for a real disc. My animated patterns are literally build one frame at a time and assembled in order to produce the patterns so it will be a little while yet before I convert each frame to YCbCr before encoding and authoring the DVD. I'd never have made it as a cartoonist .

If you are interested in the disc, and are a regular AVSer and have something to contribute, let me know and I'll add you to the beta list. If you are just a "regular" user interested in the disc, please be patient and check out the links to see what patterns are on the disc.

Input from anyone is welcome.

Ofer, I did not forget about your brightness pattern, but I haven't decided whether or not to use it on the "main" disc due to the copyrights.
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post #190 of 2308 Old 10-23-2005, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone have an opinion if I should include the Belle Nuit general test pattern shown on my site above? It's a general use pattern. I have official permission to use it. It was on the HQV test disc. I don't know that I'd personally use it and I want to keep my disc as "lean" and practical as possible with "just the basics" that one would use to tuneup their own stuff.

I'm leaning towards no, don't use it, but thought I'd ask...

S
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post #191 of 2308 Old 10-24-2005, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

Anyone have an opinion if I should include the Belle Nuit general test pattern shown on my site above? It's a general use pattern. I have official permission to use it. It was on the HQV test disc. I don't know that I'd personally use it and I want to keep my disc as "lean" and practical as possible with "just the basics" that one would use to tuneup their own stuff.

I'm leaning towards no, don't use it, but thought I'd ask...

S

While I'd personally use individual patterns for calibration in practice, it would be nice to have a general test chart to see the effects of a calibration session on one screen. Given this, and if included, I'd put it towards the end, or off on its own so people don't try to use it for calibrations. It's a fine looking pattern. I'd include it if it had a good place without it looking like it was shoe horned in somewhere just to get it in. I wouldn't be disappointed if it wasn't included though, your disk will be an incredible contribution to the group.
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post #192 of 2308 Old 10-24-2005, 03:18 AM
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Scott,
I have the HQV disk, so the Belle Nuit test pattern isn't that important to me. I agree with jvoncolln that it it's inclusion would be nice, for the sake of completeness, but not necessary.

The Mulit-Level color-bar patterns that you're working on would be much more inportant to me. I'm anxiously awaiting for the next release. Your Beta3 teaser is looking good.

I really appreciate your "KISS" approach that is accurate, it's a calibration tool that I can really use. I'm in contact with another AVS member that might be interested in your "Official" release too.

I am presently using a Mits HC3 as a backup PJ and using your Beta2, I got much better gray scale settings (significantly different settings) than I got with either AVIA or DVE (non-Pro versions).

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #193 of 2308 Old 10-24-2005, 08:36 AM
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Definitely keep the Belle Nuit test pattern. It's an excellent confirmation pattern after calibration.

Vern
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post #194 of 2308 Old 10-24-2005, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, BelleNuit stays. Thanks for the input.

I've been working to develop a concise oraganizational structure for the disc. It's easy for it to get out of hand as the other commercial discs have demonstrated.

Add to that a button limitation of 18 on a 16x9 DVD menu (per the DVD spec) and it's even more difficult to fit exactly what you want in your menus.

I don't like the current menu structure/arrangement much, and I've developed a new one. Getting it to loop and repeat (or not) where I want involves creating mutiple titles which each have multiple chapters and controlling all that through the authoring process. I will continue to make this transparent to the user and a hopefully logical and intuitave flow. The new arrangment only has one level 2 menu (main->sub->sub) which is keeping in the KISS plan pretty close.

My current menu structure plan in attached. I think it will be easier to follow opened out of the forum window so I attached as a txt file. Comments welcome and appreciated.

Link to same file: http://www.calibrate.tv/caldiscmenu_v31.txt

 

caldiscmenu_v31.txt 2.3876953125k . file
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post #195 of 2308 Old 10-24-2005, 12:09 PM
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Can't download the attachment...
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post #196 of 2308 Old 10-24-2005, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias View Post

Can't download the attachment...

It's something funky about the forum's software, not the file. It always happens to me if I click on the attachments.

I right click then save-as, that will open it. Since this is nothing new to me either, I'll report the post to David, maybe he knows why.
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post #197 of 2308 Old 10-24-2005, 09:45 PM
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Well, you need to get this thing up and ready for download. If most people (like myself) plan on sending you a "donation" for all of your hard work, you'll be able to go buy some new toys.

Definitely looking forward to it.

Chris
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post #198 of 2308 Old 10-25-2005, 09:51 AM
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Have instuctions been added so people know what to do with the various calibration screens?

___________
"Don't worry about the future, it is already tomorrow in Australia..."

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post #199 of 2308 Old 10-25-2005, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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re: instructions, Nope, pattern work first. Without tools (colorimeter of some sort) many patterns on the disc won't be of much use. My point being is there isn't much to write in the way of instructions for solid color/gray window patterns.

On the other hand, this disc will be perfect for fundamental adjustments of brightness, contrast and color/tint, Y/C delay. I'll come up with some basic instructions on those.

The instructions for the other patterns would really be from/for the particular calibration device one was using. In order of cost (approx/I think)

ursa/Bills SpidyMAN/SpyderTV software
umr/Jeff's Accucal i1 Pro software/device
ghbliss/Cliff Plavin www.progressivelabs.net CA-6X/OpticOne
Colorfacts
Sencore
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post #200 of 2308 Old 10-26-2005, 09:25 PM
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How far out is a working version of this calibration disc that we forum members can purchase? I have a new DLP arriving soon that will surely need some help. But probably not nears as much help as I'll need.
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post #201 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Probably about a week, maybe by the weekend or Mon. May set lipsync pattern aside for now to hurry it up. It's problematic.
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post #202 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 08:08 AM
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Good deal. I'm pretty certain I/we can wait that long. I myself won't even have a good use for it until next weekend anyway. In your opinion will your system be as good as the mass marketed systems? Dumb question huh.... from what li lI read of this thread it should be better, right? What about ease of use, can an idiot such as myself make this work?
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post #203 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 09:22 AM
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Those questions are all covered in this thread.
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post #204 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

Those questions are all covered in this thread.

I knew the answers were here as I've read all of the posts. However I've also read everything on Toshiba DLPs (2 threads), threads on speakers, receivers and DVD players. As a newbie into the HDTV theater world it's hard for someone to remember it all especially in the few weeks I've been here. I was hoing for a quick refresher, that's all.
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post #205 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I should take a minute and try to clarify whats "better" about it for those not familiar with these. I think this has been mentioned here one way or another spread out in posts, but I'll take a shot at summarizing.

Many of us use several commercial discs to do our display calibrations and tuning. The most popular are Avia, Digital Video Essentials (DVE) and Sound and Vision home theater tuneup (or something close to that name). Those are the affordable consumer level calibration discs. They are packed with patterns, most of which regular folks would never use. Many patterns will do tests to reveal shortcomings of a display, but in many cases there is nothing you could do about the shortcoming once it is known (IMO).

For the patterns that are popular on these discs, the experienced folks often find themselves having to switch discs to get to the fundamental, or regular often used patterns they prefer. For example, Avia (consumer version) is known to have slight color errors. DVE is difficult to navigate if you are not familiar with direct chapter and title selection on your DVD player (if it will do it at all).

The main solution to this has been to purchase very, very, VERY, expensive "pro" level calibration disc sets such as Avia-Pro and DVE-Pro. This is not an attractive option, even for those who have test gear/colorimeters, if it can be avoided. But even these pro level discs are loaded with patterns and can be more difficult to navigate.

One good thing in defense of the consumer discs is they come with at least 3 things my disc does not have.

1) spiffy little video segments explaining ow to use a particular pattern. These videos are just "in the way" once you've seen them and are something to navigate around once you know how. Some of the videos are as simple as how to hook up your equipment. My disc is not meant to address any such needs as a dummies guide to home theater.

2) Audio calibration sections. My disc does not have, nor is it likely to ever have an audio calibration section. I use an inexpensive commercial disc dedicated to audio for this task (http://www.rivesaudio.com/software/TestCD.html) . This is also a more advanced disc probably, but is better than what's on the commercial discs (IMO) and made to interface with the Radio Shack SPL, adjusted specifically to that inexpensive instruments behavior.

3) A blue filter. Both Avia and DVE will come with at least a blue filter. You need one of these to adjust color and tint. So what do I recommend? Easy, go to www.thx.com, look under Optimizer, and order a pair of THX optimizer glasses. They are $2.00. They are a 3-D cardboard type pair of glasses with the requisite blue filter. And they are easier to use than holding up a piece of raw film which is included in the consumer disc packages. Order yours now if you plan to use my disc and don't already have the film. One can also buy a more accurate Kodak optical blue filter, I forget the exact part number, I need to look it up. I always thought it would be cool to order 2 of those filters, take them to Lenscrafters and have a pair of "real blue" glasses made. Have to look into that, but I digress...

OK, so there you have what's wrong with the consumer discs, and what mine does not have that they do.

My disc is designed to provide the FUNDAMENTAL patterns used to adjust or tune a display. Some of the patterns are usable by anyone without special equipment. Some of those patterns are better IMO:
- superior contrast and brightness patterns (IMHO)
- color and tint patterns
- basic alignment patterns
- Y/C delay

The disc also have the patterns one needs to use WITH special equipment mentioned previously in the thread. These include:
- grayscale calibration window patterns
- color window patterns

This disc is meant to put ONLY the fundamental video patterns that would be used by someone using a colorimeter (like me) in one place and with spot on color accurate patterns. I've gone to great lengths to get help to ensure my color patterns are at least identical to the pro level discs, these patterns are created and verfied literally at the binary level in YCbCr (digital YUV which is what's on a DVD). In in a few tests mine were one digital level better than one of the pro level discs. My disc is meant to be quick and easy to navigate, designed to function in a work-flow arrangement, and make pattern navigation and availability quick and easy. So in that respect it is a better disc than the other options for what it's designed for.

* Will the disc have the fundamental patterns a novice or someone without a colorimeter can use? Absolutely, especially for brightness and contrast patterns which are the fundamental display adjustments. Are they better, I think so.

* Will it have a cute hand holding video in front of the patterns explaining what each pattern is and how to use it, no, it will not. Will I be available to explain same, no, I will not.

* Will it have instructions at all? Probably, but abbreviated, just the basics. If anyone submits any documentation for a particular pattern, set of patterns, or method, I'll be happy to review, turn into a pdf or text file and add to the disc. But I probably wont' have time to do much in that regard, at least not soon.

* Can someone (novice) figure out how on their own? Sure, first place to start might be at the consumer disc's websites where there is a wealth of information explaining how to use the basic patterns. Then asking questions on forums like AVS will get you the help you need for adjusting contrast, brightness. But to encourage anyone, I think my disc is a accceptable solution to anyone needing a basic calibration disc. It does not have any hand holding, but this is not rocket science anyway. Depends on how technically adept one is I suppose. By reading the suggestions above, and poking around with google one can easily find a wealth of information on using the fundamental patterns.

But if you sent me a PM and said "...I want to beta test your disc. I will stick it in my DVD player and have it calibrate my TV. I'll let you know if it worked....", then this disc isn't what you are looking for. If you said that, you need to hire someone . This is not a magical disc that calibrates anything. It has patterns you use to make adjustments to a display to get it set properly. Fundamental (basic) adjustments do not require a colorimeter (brightness, contrast, color/tint, Y/C delay), other adjustments can be done by experienced eye (sort of) but are best done with a colorimeter of some sort (gray scale, primary colors). Even without a meter, one can ascertain the quality of the devices grayscale by viewing the gray ramps so even that advanced pattern has value for a novice.

So, I hope that helps and will cut down on some of the very new to it PM's like the one above. This describes briefly what's better about mine. And maybe I can reference this post for those who don't understand what this is and is not.

Experienced guys feel free to elaborate or correct me.

Cheers,
Scott
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post #206 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

This describes briefly what's better about mine. And maybe I can reference this post for those who don't understand what this is and is not.

Experienced guys feel free to elaborate or correct me.

Cheers,
Scott

Thanks, That info is EXACTLY all I wanted. And yes, most folks will do good to be referred to this reply you've posted. I look fwd to seeing your work.
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post #207 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 11:18 AM
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I have both consumer Avia and DVE discs and the filters. I am a pretty technologically oriented guy, and I ABSOLUTELY HATE THOSE DISCS! A simple PDF with brief instructions for every pattern would be perfect.
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post #208 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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rbbnet: I'm glad the summary was helpful. It wasn't directed at you per se, but more to the tons of PM's I get from nice folks that don't really understand what it is, they just want one. That's a good thing I suppose .
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post #209 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiomagnate View Post

I have both consumer Avia and DVE discs and the filters. I am a pretty technologically oriented guy, and I ABSOLUTELY HATE THOSE DISCS! A simple PDF with brief instructions for every pattern would be perfect.

Gotch'a. It will have at least a basic readme file abou the patterns and their use or targt use for sure. But that likely last.
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post #210 of 2308 Old 10-27-2005, 01:33 PM
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Scott,

I'm a retired EE (Physics Degree) and have done quite a bit of technical writing (manual, specifications, proposals, etc.) before I retired.

If you would like me to take a stab at doing a brief set of instructions, I would be happy to help - I have your Beta2 files, and have downloaded your caldiscmenu_V3.1. I can convert the instructions to pdf when done.

PS -- I have the AVIA, DVE, & HQV consumer DVDs.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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