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post #1 of 2308 Old 09-29-2005, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Edit: Shortcut to current Production Release Announcement is in post #719 of this thread. 4 1/2 months of beta work and participation from some of the best experts in the field is what comes from here to that post. It's an educational read. But I've added this link so you can skip ahead a little

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7178409

Interested in the development but no time to read? See the Q&A section of the official documentation created from members and input in this thread. Current documentation and a pattern list is available on these links:
Documentation
Pattern List


=====================================
(mostly) Original post:

Hi guys. Just discovered the new calibration forum. I'm about to release a new calibration disc. It's in beta now and a few folks have it. It's geared toward DLP's (vs CRT). It is a fundamental easy to navigate calibration disc with:

Gray scale ramp in 5 IRE increments
Deep gray ramps (digital 1 increments)
colorbars for color and hue adjustments
75% & 100% color windows
0-100 IRE windows in 5 or 10 IRE increments
Automated Gray pattern windows for CA-6X or Optic One users
BTB and WTW patterns with moving, level-labelled bars.
alignment/overscan pattern
ansi contrast pattern
ansi lumens pattern
RGB 5% steped ramps
lipsync pattern
maybe a few more...

Colors are tested and calibrated to known good reference images. After this I see where one popular calibration disc really is off a little.

Cheers, Scott

Edited: revised menu jpg, added a couple shortcuts to initial post.

NOTE: For DVD Burning how-to questions, a specific thread was created for that topic, please ask there, not in this thread if you need help along those lines. Thanks. :

Click here for DVD Burning How-to thread
LL
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post #2 of 2308 Old 09-29-2005, 09:13 PM
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Cool! Any plans for adding patterns similar to 3no's black bar and white bar patterns? You can find his DVD patterns in the HTPC forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post5413832
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post #3 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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maxelung:

My disc was born from 2 things. First reason was my desire to stop switching between Avia and DVE pro for the few patterns I wanted to use to calibrate my DLP.

Second was becasue I was working with (Bob Sorel of the HTPC forum) to work up an authored disc that could be used efficiently with umr's new software. My current disc is laid out per Bob's specs to match the sequence needed for umr's software. The sequence is fine with me, too so that's the way it's laid out today. Each pattern stays put until you tell it to move, menu navigation is intuitave and simple, and if you happen to be using umr's software, the pattern order is uninterupted and matches the order of Jeff's softwares needs (per Bob).

Thanks for the link to 3no's. Bob had suggested 3no take a look at my disc. I have already given a copy to a few folks so they can take a look at it. Bob has a preliminary version. If you like 3no's patterns, I bet you'll love mine. Mine does not have the granularity as his on the specific pattern, but I think my white pattern is very nice to set the levels. I've oriented to doing a DLP, there is nothin gfor a CRT (no blooming type pattern).

I'm in the weeds for the next couple of days, but I'll get the beta copy loaded for for anyone to look at early next week.

I would be especially grateful for any of the big-dogs to check out my disc when I let it go. Input is welcome from anyone though.

Thanks again, Scott
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post #4 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 07:28 AM
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Scott - Can you post what specific values you are encoding for grayscale in either RGB or YPbPr form (IRE only has meaning if you are authoring analog)? Also, can you add 100% primaries and secondaries?

Alternatively, I'd love to discuss beta testing as well!

Later,
Bill
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post #5 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Bill:

Yes, when I get back to it next week, I'll post the coplete exact digital RGB values I used to create each pattern (pattern, background,text, etc), and the logic if any used to determine them. As for the YPbPr values, that's handled internally in the encoder and I'm not specifically doing it. It took several weeks of work to figure out how to go from my patterns created in photoshop to an encoded DVD (YPbPr?) without screwing up the levels and/or colors. I got a lot of help in some technical encoder forums and from tech support with some of the encoders I own. Some authoring tools will also cause problems, btu I'm using a pro-level authoring tool that does not, fortunately. It was a royal PITA to get it to work.

What I'm using to determine in my patterns are "right" is to simply compare my levels agains known trusted, excellent sources using the identical measuring methods. Measure theirs, measure mine. Once I found the combination of tools that did not screw up the colors, clip the levels, incorrectly convert, etc, etc. I was able to generate the suite of patterns.

I can make another set of 100% color windows. It's what I've always used, but I had it suggested to use 75% to avoid issues with colors like red on DLP's that may have "run out". But then again, if the color "ran out" it should still be red at 100%, just at teh wrong luminance I suppose. Anyway I'll add them. It woudl be good to get a concensous on which to use.

Maybe instead of 75% windows, straight in a row, I can do 75%R, then 100% red, 75% G, 100% green and so on. THen anyone just wnatingone or the other can just skip the unwanted level. Or even compare while they are measuring...

Bill, I consider you one of the "big-dogs" , I'll send you a link to the current beta. Please don't share it yet. Let em know if you see any errors. There are a couple I know of, minor.

Thanks,
Scott
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post #6 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 08:15 AM
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this sounds great, I can't wait til it is released.

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post #7 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 08:18 AM
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Scott - No big dog here! I'm just a humble bounty hunter (If you've seen Cowboy Bebop).

For the patterns I use, I set my reference white to 236 to handle some of the issues which you have discussed (22 code values between each decile of stimulus in RGB). Getting IRE to work out evenly to %stim in a NTSC environment requires 10-bit integer math (the last two bits are "decimalized" add-ons to the 8-bit values in some uses; however, we consumers get none of that!). Despite what would be convenient, we just can't assume away set-up in the playback environment (sorry to rant unnecessarily - it's a pet peeve).

As for run-out, I specifically want to try to provoke it. When I calculate my 1931 gamut, I capture the luminance information to calculate a dE between the actual primary and the expected value. When run-out happens, the dE will spike if the colors are accurate. Ironically, my H77, as delivered from the factory, had a significant run-out in red. However, it is also significantly oversaturated. As a result, the dE for 100% red was 14. If the red did not run out, the dE would have been over 30!

Later,
Bill
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post #8 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 08:40 AM
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Scott, your disc sounds great - I hate navigating the other ones.

Heh, glad you mentioned red runout Bill - my Benq 8700 has run out of red too - 800 hours isn't kind on the bulb!

Did you author your disc using 8 bit RGB patterns? I hope it doesn't impact the YCrCb conversion when encoding - quite a few folks now have HDMI upscaling DVD players that can output 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 YCrCb (I hope I am using the right terminology) and I wonder if it would be visible? Hopefully not!

Anyways, I can't wait for the beta...
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post #9 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I did use 24 bit RGB (8 bits, 0-255 per color) for the patterns.
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post #10 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 09:29 AM
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This sounds great. Can't wait to see the final product. I have a 52HM84 and since this disc is geared towards DLP sets, this will be very handy.
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post #11 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

Scott, your disc sounds great - I hate navigating the other ones.

Heh, glad you mentioned red runout Bill - my Benq 8700 has run out of red too - 800 hours isn't kind on the bulb!

Did you author your disc using 8 bit RGB patterns? I hope it doesn't impact the YCrCb conversion when encoding - quite a few folks now have HDMI upscaling DVD players that can output 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 YCrCb (I hope I am using the right terminology) and I wonder if it would be visible? Hopefully not!

Anyways, I can't wait for the beta...

RGB->YCrCb conversion is done using a matrix that varies depending upon the standard used (602/SMPTE-C, 709, etc.). An HTPC using VMR should be able to validate that the RGB->YCrCb->RGB conversion has been done correctly. The problem is that I am not sure what matrices are being used by TT/ZP for high def. I am pretty sure that they do not actually re-convert when outputting at above-480p resolution.

Of course, these issues apply to the CE universe as well, and let's not get into the source of error in the mastering chain. (Per Stacey Spears, IIRC, one should probably use the HD matrices exclusively... )

Later,
Bill
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post #12 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 10:23 AM
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Just curious...how is a calibration disc geared more towards DLP than versus say a plasma? I ask because Avia/DVE are not geared for one technology...is there a reason this would not work for a plasma?
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post #13 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 10:48 AM
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Plasmas will be fine. What you have to worry about are the patterns that are designed to test specific design compromises/weaknesses in CRT-based displays (e.g., line bending due to HVPS issues, etc.). A digital is a digital in so far as that goes. What may make a difference is whether you are using an analog or a digital signal. D/A and A/D conversions can introduce visible errors if done poorly.

One could do some low light patterns to show DLP dither, but I'm not sure that would be that desirable! (Oddly, my H77 has greater issues with a 5% Stim pattern, than the 0% stim pattern!).

Later,
Bill
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post #14 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

Just curious...how is a calibration disc geared more towards DLP than versus say a plasma? I ask because Avia/DVE are not geared for one technology...is there a reason this would not work for a plasma?

Yes, what Bill said.

I said DLP becasue that's what I'm used to and what I'm using to test. I presume it will carry to other fixed pixel technologies, too, but don't want to go out on a limb and say so having little practical experience with same. I have no patterns for testing anything like "bloom" that CRT's can experience. I do send above reference white and have patterns I made to help fine tune DLP contrast since they don't have any full-on white issues. I have a disclaimer on the opening screen that one should know what they are doing to use the disc. I will have full disclosure of what's in the patterns (levels) so the gurus here can comment on any items that could be a concern for other technologies.

This is just a simple, bare bones test pattern disc with the fundamental patterns I need to calibrate my projector. With the exceptions of my black and white patterns with BTB and WTW moving bar patterns, everything else is very fundamental. Just in an easy to use and access DVD so those without HTPC's can use it, too.

It won't necessarily be a substiture for the commercial calibrationn DVD's. For instance, mine does not have anything regarding sound on it, unlike say Avia, or DVE. And it has no performance test patterns (i.e. resolution, moving zone plates, etc.) that most folks don't use anyway. I designed it to set the contrast and brightness properly, get a grayscale right, check and if possible adjust colors, and line up the screen. For the ambitious with good instruments, they can check their ANSI lumens and ANSI contrast with it, too.
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post #15 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa View Post


As a result, the dE for 100% red was 14. If the red did not run out, the dE would have been over 30!

Later,
Bill

Does not make sense - as the component values to dE (dL*du*dv*) are magnitudes squared not +/- amplitudes. Your post implies that a negative dL* (runout) lessened the dE which is not possible.
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post #16 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, so now that I've publically admitted lack of understanding , maybe you two and others can discuss it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=586386

?

Thanks, Scott
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post #17 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Does not make sense - as the component values to dE (dL*du*dv*) are magnitudes squared not +/- amplitudes. Your post implies that a negative dL* (runout) lessened the dE which is not possible.

Kevin - It was counterintuitive to me as well. I expected dE to go down when grayscale error (dL*) was eliminated. What happened in the calculations:
- dL* went to zero
- du* increaased significantly (6.5 -> 31!!)
- dv* decreased a bit

As near as I can tell, the error in red becomes more pronounced the brighter it gets (L* is a scaler for u' and v', after all). At least, that is the way the math is working (barring an error - going to have to bug hunt that one).

BTW, I am using the 1976 method here, with all of its flaws.

Later,
Bill
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post #18 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 03:02 PM
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Ursa

Are you talking about measuring the Red Primary? Are you trying to fix the video red push, the greyscale red push, or the oversaturated Red chroma?

Are you using the measured white point or the standard white point in your calculations? If you change the reference - then these dE have nothing to do with each other since they are w.r.t. different references. So you should stick to the standard white so everything is on the same scale.
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post #19 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Ursa

Are you talking about measuring the Red Primary? Are you trying to fix the video red push, the greyscale red push, or the oversaturated Red chroma?

Are you using the measured white point or the standard white point in your calculations? If you change the reference - then these dE have nothing to do with each other since they are w.r.t. different references. So you should stick to the standard white so everything is on the same scale.

Kevin - Yes, I am talking about measuring the red primary. I'm not trying to do anything with it yet (at least, not until after dark), just describe how accurate it is at 100%. The surprising answer from a dE perspective is that it is less inaccurate now, than if it did not run out of light.

The reference is to the established primaries in Rec709.

Later,
Bill
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post #20 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 03:28 PM
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Hi guys,

I just wanted to drop in to tell everyone that Scott has worked really hard putting this all together, and though the disc is quite simple to navigate and is not chock full of patterns, it is the single most useful calibration disc I have ever seen or used...period!!

This project was born out of our disgust of the horrible navigation that we must endure when using any of the other commercial discs. These are the ones that I know of and their problems (I own all of them except Avia Pro):

1. DVE consumer - horrible navigation and incomplete set of gray stimulus windows
2. Avia consumer - bad (but not horrible) navigation, but levels were affected in the encoding process, making them useless (for Scott and I).
3. S&V Home Theater TuneUp - corrected encoding problems, but gray windows are incomplete (not enough per cent stimulus)
4. DVE Pro - has all of the patterns correctly encoded, but once again is horrible to navigate - and it costs $300!!
5. Avia Pro - I didn't buy it for $400, but I understand that it has all the right patterns in a somewhat better menu setup, but do you really want to pay that much just for a complete set of patterns that should been included on the consumer versions?

Scott's disc is much easier to navigate than any of them! That's because it is not designed with fancy intros and a ton of other patterns that you will probably never need or use. Those patterns are still available - just buy one of the commercial discs! Scott's disc is all "meat and potatoes" - a very small disc with just the good stuff that you will need...

Scott designed all his own patterns, and though they resemble others (how many different ways are there to create a window?), some are unique and more useful than any others I've seen, especially his version of the "moving bars" brightness and contrast patterns. Scott created a nice main menu where you can access any group of patterns directly, but if you just start at chapter one, each pattern is in a moving video endless loop, so you just have to hit the "next" or "previous" button on your remote to move forward and backward through the sequence. The main patterns are all arranged in the exact order needed for UMR's i1 Pro DCS software (my idea... ), so taking a complete profile now only requires a couple of minutes, as you don't have to search for any patterns.

The 75% values were suggested by Jeff (UMR) and thus we went with them. (I use the term "we" loosely - Scott did ALL of the work, while I just made the suggestions and did a lot of testing.)

Scott went through hell and lots of time and work to insure that all levels remained correct, as apparently the MPEG encoding process likes to play with color levels. After a couple of weeks of failures, Scott got everything perfect, with the levels measuring perfectly using the "eye drop" method in MS Paint and by using DGIndex. We came to these conclusions by carefully comparing DVE commercial patterns to make sure that the values matched. Scott even found some very slight off values in the DVE patterns and corrected them in his. As a final check, we would like to have some of the "big dogs" (as Scott calls you) take a look at the patterns and provide one last check on his work to insure that all levels are 100% correct.

Just to be clear, once again I am not taking ANY credit for this other than for making suggestions and testing. This is ALL Scott's very hard work and he deserves a ton of credit!
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post #21 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 05:06 PM
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So... I guess my dumb question is... How do we get a copy of this Disc?

I just bought my first HD Plasma (Panny 42px50u), and have started to research calibration discs.

This sounds like the perfect thing for a n00b. I will still be doing more research however.

Thanks!
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post #22 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 06:13 PM
 
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This is a pretty handy mini-calibration disc, one thing that I think is pretty important to include is some resolution patterns/wedges etc, because especially if you're trying to 1:1 pixel map to a digital display you need to be able to check this for instance.
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post #23 of 2308 Old 09-30-2005, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I'll try to whip one up. It may be harder than it sounds though. The DVD's are authored at 720x480, and for properly formated 16:9 aspect images, I make the image 16:9 and convert it back to 720x480 and author at 16:9. Then the DVD player stretches teh 720x480 back out. And then there's teh squar pixels vs rectangular NTSC pixels, but dont' get me started on that. For PC images, it's easy. For DVD's it's problmeatic to say the least. All that stretching and unstretching is hard to get the Damn thing to send a 1:1 mapping at 16:9. I can doa 4:3 pattern, and encode the frame that way, but many DVD players won't recognize the flag and change on the fly. I'll see what I can do.

Do you have a favorite existing pattern, or know of one that meets the need?
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post #24 of 2308 Old 10-01-2005, 01:23 AM
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GetGray,

What most of us (in PAL land) are looking for is a PAL disk just like this. DVE PAL is the only game in town these days.

Any chance a PAL version (720x576/50HZ) is also in the works?

BTW, are you going to publically offer an ISO of the disk or will it eventually be for sale?

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #25 of 2308 Old 10-01-2005, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Ofer:

I'm probably going to make it "donationware". Put a blurb in the back that if you are using it and happy with it, paypal me a tip. Anyone who does will be added to my "update" list and get notifications of any changes, etc. Basically free.

From my experience on the "best 5 miutes thread" there are a lot of folks who dont' have DVD burners or the skills to burn a DVD if they do, so I'll probably make a for sale (cheap) version available with a nice label, box, etc. to meet their need.

I don't think the encoding process I am using supports PAL. My Mainconcept mpeg encoder does support it, but it screws up the colors and levels. Mainconcept siad it couldn't be done (below black, above white, etc), even after I explained it *had* been done by others. Fortunately I didn't take their word for it.

But if I can get it to encode in PAL, I'll do it. Thing is, I have no PAL stuff so I don't know if I can test it or not.

Scott
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post #26 of 2308 Old 10-01-2005, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Sorel View Post

I just wanted to drop in to tell everyone that Scott has worked really hard putting this all together, and though the disc is quite simple to navigate and is not chock full of patterns, it is the single most useful calibration disc I have ever seen or used...period!!

Just to be clear, once again I am not taking ANY credit for this other than for making suggestions and testing. This is ALL Scott's very hard work and he deserves a ton of credit!

Wow Bob, thanks for the kind words. But I will say Bob gets more credit thn he's accepting as it was from a thread he was participationg in that became sort of the last straw for me. Someone else wanting the basics in one easy to navigate place. And Bob worked with me from his HTPC standpoint which was a big help in my early testing. I have the authoring expertise, I figured it if could be done I could do it. Thanks again, Scott.
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post #27 of 2308 Old 10-01-2005, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor View Post

GetGray,

What most of us (in PAL land) are looking for is a PAL disk just like this. DVE PAL is the only game in town these days.

Any chance a PAL version (720x576/50HZ) is also in the works?

BTW, are you going to publically offer an ISO of the disk or will it eventually be for sale?

Curious, I've understandably ignored any PAL information as I educated myself on NTSC video levels, so I dont' know much about PAL. For example does it have a "porch", that is, Below black? I thought pal 0 was black? and it behaved more like a PC. But again, I've done zero looking into it. It might me easy to do compared to the NTSC hoops I had to jump. My regular encoders may do it without a hitch.
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post #28 of 2308 Old 10-01-2005, 08:38 AM
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GetGray,

Everything in PAL is identical (the color encoding is different, but the MPEG encoder should take care of that). There is below black in PAL as well, it uses 50HZ and there's no 3:2 (there's only 2:2 or video). It's also 720 x 576 instead of by 480.

From an encoding standpoint, those are all the differences...

You can't mix PAL and NTSC on the same disk, so it would basically have to be a PAL version and an NTSC version (just like DVE).

Cheers,
Ofer LaOr
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post #29 of 2308 Old 10-01-2005, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Ofer: I'll see what I can do next week. Can you test it?
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post #30 of 2308 Old 10-01-2005, 10:54 AM
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Scott - Definitely kudos are in order on the disc. Two thumbs up! I sent you a few requests for labeling enhancements that I would find useful (e.g., digital values on all of the window patterns). Also, TT may be letting me down on the window color patterns.

If you would like, I can send you my full-field patterns that are corrected to require no more than a 50:1 instantaneous CR to display properly.

Later,
Bill
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