ISF Calibrators, where are you located? Please post here! - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3170 Old 04-25-2007, 07:24 AM
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Some people think that the resultant picture is most important and will pay a handsome sum to get that and others work on a budget.

In the end you are the only one that can make that decision. Initial cost of the display certainly does effect that decision for most everyone.

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post #362 of 3170 Old 04-25-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AboveBeyond View Post

I think if I bought at TV exceeding $2,000 or more, the ~$400 may sound resonable but considering my new Samsung cost $800, IMHO, its not worth it adding 50% more to the total cost.

This is where many make their biggest mistake. The issue is mostly video quality.........is a $800 TV and $400 calibration, $1200 a better bargain than a $2000 TV and the same $400 calibration? There are many variables here. If after calibration what if the $800 TV looks better than the calibrated $2000 TV? It can happen.

As Dave mentioned, $275 is the recommended ISF fee, but there is also a recommended additional $125 per input and or scan rate. Many Calibrators, including myself, offer the calibration at $400 and cover the additional work for up to 3 inputs. It may be a little more than you would have chosen, say just the $275, but I have found that you will be more satisfied with all the inputs calibrated, and possibly Day and Night modes if available.

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post #363 of 3170 Old 04-25-2007, 09:14 PM
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Joe Morgan/Xpediant AV
Technical Design Manager

Sencore Auto Cal Pro and Color Pro 5000, Sencore VP403 generator, 6500K back Lighting fixtures, Digital Video Essentials Pro, Monster Calibration, Monster Cables, Colorfacts system. Trained by top Calibration specialist Gregg Loewen of Lion Audio Video, scored a perfect 100 on a ISF exam graded personally by Joel Silver. Attended many simmers with Joel Silver and Joe Kane. Specialize in HTPC/Media Center systems. Huge assortment of WMVHD, Blue Ray, HDDVD, and DVD test material

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post #364 of 3170 Old 04-26-2007, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AboveBeyond View Post

I think if I bought at TV exceeding $2,000 or more, the ~$400 may sound resonable but considering my new Samsung cost $800, IMHO, its not worth it adding 50% more to the total cost.

Above,

Bear in mind what you pay a calibrator bears no relation to the size of the display or its cost. The effort required to calibrate a $5,000 70-inch display is not that much different from the effort required to calibrate an $800 20-inch display. And while time is part of what you're paying for, the ultimate value comes from a calibrator's experience and knowledge base and the investment the calibrator has made in acquiring AND maintaining test equipment (that's right, calibration equipment requires routine re-calibration).

Of course, I understand that it may be difficult to rationalize spending $400 for calibration of a display that costs only $800. But in some cases, calibrators may offer discounts on multiple displays, so if you have a primary display that needs attention, you might be able to work out a package deal that makes overall pricing seem more reasonable for your smaller LCD panel.

FWIW, I recently spoke with someone about calibration and when he gave me the details of the equipment in his system, he mentioned that he had spent $1000 each for six theater recliners. But after discussing price of calibration, the caller balked at spending $400 for calibration, because he paid only $1,200 for the projector.

That's a good example of false economy.

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post #365 of 3170 Old 04-26-2007, 04:36 AM
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well, I guess its like the guy who pays 150k for a new Bentley, then takes it to the dollar car wash to get it cleaned...Or the guy who spends a million bucks on a house, and doesnt bother to put furniture or landscapping on it..
Some folks feel that just making the purchase of high end things should suffice, and that these items dont need tweaking/maintainance/ upkeep..Usually, high end items need more upkeep/tweaking to them than lower end things do, just to ensure that you get all the features that you paid so much for to work to their fullest..
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post #366 of 3170 Old 04-26-2007, 09:03 AM
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Another way to look at this is if you bought a piano for a $1K instead of that Steinway Grand for $20K, then said, I only spent $1K for the piano, it's not worth spending $xxx to have it tuned......

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post #367 of 3170 Old 04-29-2007, 02:50 PM
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Anybody know of someone who does calibrations in the Huntsville, Alabama area?
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post #368 of 3170 Old 05-01-2007, 03:13 PM
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Hi all,

A question to any of the ISF trained Calibrators.

I am looking at doing the ISF training, the pricing for the 2 day course seems very expensive to me. Is the infomation and course content really good value for money?

I have to travel overseas to do the Seminar(course), so my total cost also consists of accommodation and air travel to another country, (New Zealand to Australia(Cedia)).

I can see the potential and weight value the ISF label could bring in a fledging market but really struggling to justify this outlay(racking up to many thousands so far)?

If you don't want to comment openly, please PM me.

Any comments would be very much appreciated.

Regards
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post #369 of 3170 Old 05-01-2007, 08:52 PM
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The most important thing you should know, regarding the training (in my opinion anyway), is that it is a good foundation from which to build. Don't go into it, as I did, thinking that you are going to be a professional calibrator when you leave class on the second day. It gives you the very basic points which will allow you to learn the finer details you need to know to make it your career. It has been three years for me and I still don't do it full time. I would like to do it much more than I do, but I require more equipment and knowledge before I am able. My sincerest advice is to try to find an experienced calibrator who needs an assistant and learn from them. I know, and have had the occasional privilege of working with, Ken Whitcomb for whom I have the utmost respect and admiration. I have learned something from him each time, but I feel I have a long way to go. I used to have ISF Calibrator under my name on this forum, but I no longer feel that that is appropriate. My new "title", while somewhat whimsical, is more accurate.

In short, understand that it is a necessary stepping stone but not the entire journey.

Re:Calibration
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post #370 of 3170 Old 05-02-2007, 09:44 AM
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Joe Morgan Xpediant AV, Houston Texas

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Technical Design Manager

Sencore Auto Cal Pro and Color Pro 5000, Sencore VP403 generator, 6500K back Lighting fixtures, Digital Video Essentials Pro, Monster Calibration, Monster Cables, Colorfacts system. Trained by top Calibration specialist Gregg Loewen of Lion Audio Video, scored a perfect 100 on a ISF exam graded personally by Joel Silver. Attended many simmers with Joel Silver and Joe Kane. Specialize in HTPC/Media Center systems. Huge assortment of WMVHD, Blue Ray, HDDVD, and DVD test material

Located in Houston Texas but can travel
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post #371 of 3170 Old 05-05-2007, 11:34 AM
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I have gone through many many posts and realized that if I lived in Houston, Huntington Beach, or Chicago, I would not have a problem finding someone to calibrate my Sony.

But, I happen to live in the St. Petersberg - Sarasota area. That is of course. Florida.
Anyone out there recommend a certified ISF Techi who services this area?

Thanks

Lenore
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post #372 of 3170 Old 05-05-2007, 11:54 AM
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Lenore,

The ISF is based in FL. I suggest you go to their website www.imagingscience.com and check it out.

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post #373 of 3170 Old 05-06-2007, 04:17 PM
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Display calibration services in South Florida ( Fla FL )

Miami Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Martin, St Lucie, Indian River counties and beyond. Southwest Florida as well.

Phil Jochum
Home Cinema Solutions Inc
phil(a)hcs-fl(d)com

All display types - front projection gear included. Residential and commercial.

Experience with Sony and Ikegami production cameras. Commercial projection experience includes Digital Projection, Christie Digital, Barco, Hughes JVC, Panasonic, Sanyo, and Proxima. Commerical display experience includes Panasonic, Pioneer, and NEC.
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post #374 of 3170 Old 05-06-2007, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenore View Post

I have gone through many many posts and realized that if I lived in Houston, Huntington Beach, or Chicago, I would not have a problem finding someone to calibrate my Sony.

But, I happen to live in the St. Petersberg - Sarasota area. That is of course. Florida.
Anyone out there recommend a certified ISF Techi who services this area?

Thanks

Lenore

I'm not sure if he travels to St. Pete-Sarasota, but Barry VanDenBerg serves the Central Florida area and if he travels near you, he would do an excellent job.

Here's his contact info:

http://www.orlandodigital.tv/calibration.htm

407-592-6500

Doug

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post #375 of 3170 Old 05-06-2007, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdog1002 View Post

Anybody know of someone who does calibrations in the Huntsville, Alabama area?

From the ISF Forum web site:

Michael Kinnaird, IEEE, CET, Cedia, ISF
Audio & Video Specialists, Inc.
Birmingham, Alabama

(205) 871-2219 office
(205) 879-1953 fax
(205) 529-9076 mobile

Doug

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post #376 of 3170 Old 05-06-2007, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lenore View Post

I have gone through many many posts and realized that if I lived in Houston, Huntington Beach, or Chicago, I would not have a problem finding someone to calibrate my Sony.

But, I happen to live in the St. Petersberg - Sarasota area. That is of course. Florida.
Anyone out there recommend a certified ISF Techi who services this area?

Thanks

Lenore


I'm not up on the geography, but a tour featuring me is being organized for Fla - check it out -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7&goto=newpost


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post #377 of 3170 Old 05-07-2007, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lindt View Post

I have

Panasonic DLP PT-50DL54
Samsung LNR46D
Panasonic AE-900u

James

I'm also looking for an austin-capable calibrator...

snagabag.com - just a click away
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post #378 of 3170 Old 05-11-2007, 01:03 PM
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I would like to have a calibration done on my Sony RPTV. I live in Heber Springs, Arkansas, about an hour north of Little Rock.

Does anyone come this way? I checked the ISF site, called some numbers in Arkansas, no one has returned my call. One location did not know why they were listed as a certified calibrator, their in the telecom business.

If someone has any suggestions, I would appreciate it.
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post #379 of 3170 Old 05-13-2007, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wase4711 View Post

well, I guess its like the guy who pays 150k for a new Bentley, then takes it to the dollar car wash to get it cleaned...Or the guy who spends a million bucks on a house, and doesnt bother to put furniture or landscapping on it..
Some folks feel that just making the purchase of high end things should suffice, and that these items dont need tweaking/maintainance/ upkeep..Usually, high end items need more upkeep/tweaking to them than lower end things do, just to ensure that you get all the features that you paid so much for to work to their fullest..

IF I bought a 150k Bently, all the seriving would for the most part be included. Washing that car and making it perform to it's fullest are two different things.
A one million dollar home already has great landscape, or at least it should. Furniture is necessary and its price is different.
My point is, if a high quality TV is sold, why should and why would the manufacturer state all the great things about this TV and NOT have it calibrated for the price one pays for it. There is NO WAY a Bently is gonna leave the showroom without it being in tip top shape. That is, it will be running at its best or it will be returned until it does.

Point one is, how nice of TV manufacturers to recognize their tv's can perform much better than when purchaced. How nice of them to recognize "calibrators". I suppose it's their way of adding to the economy.
Point two. Just because equipment to calibrate is expensive, and training is overpriced, does that mean calibrations should be overpriced?
I guess its hard for me to look at the price of calibration and know I would get charged more then my Doctor charges me.
I do agree that proper calibration can do wonders for a TV. I would never dispute that.
I just don't know why there is no competition in this field. Is it because there are not that many calibrators?

In the end, most of the ISF calibrators are very good and do know what they are doing. I just dont buy the arguement for the pricing.

Meanwhile, I know of a great computer you can buy. It has the fastest and best of the latest technology. After you buy it though, you are going to have to hire someone to adjust it so it does every thing we say it will do.
Computer = $2000.00
Adjustment = $400.00

I hope you read the above the way it was intended. I wrote it as a calm discussion and NOT out of anger, or chip on my shoulder. At one time I owned a SONY 34xbr wide screen. I had it calibarted and it did look better.

Las Vegas
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post #380 of 3170 Old 05-13-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post

FYI....

For any new ISF calibrators out there looking for start-up gear, I have my Progressive Labs CA-1 Colorimeter available here:

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...180649555&item

I just dropped the price of the CA-1 Colorimeter for all you new ISF'ers just starting out that need some pro calibration gear....check it out here:

http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.p...160&class&3&4&

Dave Harper
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post #381 of 3170 Old 05-13-2007, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

My point is, if a high quality TV is sold, why should and why would the manufacturer state all the great things about this TV and NOT have it calibrated for the price one pays for it.

That's a fair question. The answer goes back to your point about "high quality" -- the TVs you're referring to are NOT high quality. Although most TVs sold are CAPABLE of high quality, they are not delivered that way because the extra effort required to get them to that state would have to be passed onto consumers. But most consumers are blissfully unaware that quality/accuracy is an issue, and even for those who do understand that quality could/should be better, most are satisfied with what they consider to be "good enough" quality.

The other factor to bear in mind here is that the manufacturer has no control over the viewing environment where the TV they build is going to be used. So TVs are configured at the factory for the worst-case viewing environment (where there is little or no ambient light control). Thus, TVs are set up at the factory to be bright and jazzy, so that no matter where it ends up, it looks halfway decent.

If a manufacturer decided to really deliver high quality by including in-home calibration as part of the cost, I'm sure they would find, in time, a market of buyers who value that sort of product. But due to the higher cost that would entail, they would be cutting themselves off from the much larger part of the market that is indifferent to picture quality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

I guess its hard for me to look at the price of calibration and know I would get charged more then my Doctor charges me.

If your doctor spends 4 hours with you, I'm pretty sure that what you (or your insurance company) end up paying for that visit/procedure is going to make calibration look like one of the best bargains ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

I do agree that proper calibration can do wonders for a TV. I would never dispute that. I just don't know why there is no competition in this field. Is it because there are not that many calibrators?

Supply is ultimately determined by demand. There is no extra-market force afoot limiting the number of calibrators available for hire (unlike the market for doctors). The biggest limitation to there being more calibrators and more competition is the fact that demand for calibration is relatively small, at least when you stack it up with the total number of TVs sold in a year. If calibration demand increases, there will be more calibrators, but in light of the higher demand, that doesn't necessarily translate to lower prices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

In the end, most of the ISF calibrators are very good and do know what they are doing. I just don't buy the arguement for the pricing.

I don't see calibration pricing as an argument. You seem to be saying that calibration is overpriced, but if that were obviously true there would be a significant opportunity for lots of smart guys and gals to enter the market to undercut those who are supposedly overcharging.

But I see no evidence at all of that happening, so I have to conclude that current pricing is at or very near market equilibrium.

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post #382 of 3170 Old 05-13-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DroptheRemote View Post

If a manufacturer decided to really deliver high quality by including in-home calibration as part of the cost, I'm sure they would find, in time, a market of buyers who value that sort of product. But due to the higher cost that would entail, they would be cutting themselves off from the much larger part of the market that is indifferent to picture quality.

This is exactly what Brillian did with their TVs. They sold a few, but couldn't make a go of it, most didn't understand the cost differential from say a Sony SXRD.

Consumers are stuck with want the major market demand dictates. Higher quality with higher cost doesn't fit the model.

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post #383 of 3170 Old 05-13-2007, 07:41 PM
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4 hours with a doc is a bit much. But we are talking about my life, not a high priced toy.
Overall, why couldn't manufacturers set their tv's at 65k ?

Las Vegas
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post #384 of 3170 Old 05-13-2007, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

...Overall, why couldn't manufacturers set their tv's at 65k ?

They can, but it changes as the TV/bulb breaks in. If, for example, they set the TV for D65 and when it finally stabilized, the color temp went plus green. This would be terrible to watch. With OOTB factory settings at such high color temps (way plus blue) there is little chance of things going plus green. I even see TVs with a "6500K" color temp and it measures 8000K to 12000K. This is just the way it is for the TVs to sell in the stores, it is a fact and there is probably little that will ever change it. If all people, or a majority, really cared, and called for calibration, every calibrator in the country would have 3-5 calibrations booked for every day of the year and there would be just as many that couldn't get an appointment.

So what is the difference in paying $xxx for a TV and $400 for a calibration, after the TV stabilizes and paying $xxx + $400 for a TV calibrated from the factory that will change in the first 100 hours of use? The difference, the Professionally calibrated display is accurately set for your setup including input devices (most all input devices do not output a calibrated reference level signal).

Basically, you are saying is the same as, a new Piano should come perfectly tuned...........

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post #385 of 3170 Old 05-14-2007, 06:29 AM
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To tune a new piano and be good at it you need a gift for sound and music with little technology.
To tune a TV you need some training and thousands of dollars of equipment.
Your reasoning for tuning is good and makes a lot of sense to me.
My next curiousity is, how much do you think the price of tuning a TV (ISF Calibrators) is related to the cost of the equipment?

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post #386 of 3170 Old 05-14-2007, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

My next curiousity is, how much do you think the price of tuning a TV (ISF Calibrators) is related to the cost of the equipment?

There's really no direct relationship between the cost of equipment and the cost of calibration.

Some calibrators have a basic calibration toolkit inventory that might cost $10,000, while others may have three or four times (or more) that investment. For the average calibration project, cost is not going to be impacted at all by the investment in gear the calibrator brings to the table. In some very high-end projects, having special equipment may be a minor pricing factor, but that's the exception, not the rule.

Time is a factor, but again it's not the driving factor -- if it were, you would see calibrators charging you by the hour, rather than quoting on a project basis. Sometimes a calibration that should take 3 hours, takes 5 hours, and sometimes it takes only 2 hours. That is one of the benefits to the prevailing calibration pricing structure that you might be overlooking -- the customer isn't exposed to the sometimes unpredictable nature of the calibration process.

So then, what are you paying for? Ultimately you're paying more for the calibrator's experience and problem-solving abilities.

Calibration is rarely a Point A-to-Point B process. Every display is different and what worked on one model for one client on Tuesday may not produce the same results for another client on the same model on Thursday. This is why the idea of "sharing" settings is pointless.

In addition, no display is going to provide perfect grayscale, or perfect gamma, or perhaps even a perfect black level. Although the goal going into every calibration should be perfection, it's a goal that's almost never attainable. As a result, a big part of what the calibrator brings to the table is the ability to know what sort of compromises can be made and where they will have the smallest picture quality impact in viewing actual programming.

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post #387 of 3170 Old 05-14-2007, 08:29 AM
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mod

request that posts here be limited to locating ISF calibrators

Thanks
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post #388 of 3170 Old 05-14-2007, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

mod

request that posts here be limited to locating ISF calibrators

Thanks

Ok.
Who is near LasVegas?

Las Vegas
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post #389 of 3170 Old 05-14-2007, 05:00 PM
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I'm not sure how far Phoenix/Scottsdale, AZ is from Vegas, but Michael Hamilton is there and I highly recommend his services. He is "Coyotes" here on AVS and he is part of the Lion A/V Calibration group here http://www.lionav.com/mmichaelhamilton.php

Have you also tried the isf website and done a search here www.imagingscience.com ?

Good Luck

Dave Harper
ISF, CTS
Harper Home Theater Systems
ISF Calibrations, Consultations
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post #390 of 3170 Old 05-14-2007, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post

I'm not sure how far Phoenix/Scottsdale, AZ is from Vegas, but Michael Hamilton is there and I highly recommend his services. He is "Coyotes" here on AVS and he is part of the Lion A/V Calibration group here http://www.lionav.com/mmichaelhamilton.php

Have you also tried the isf website and done a search here www.imagingscience.com ?

Good Luck

I have searched the site before. I have not had good luck in that area.

Las Vegas
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