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post #91 of 160 Old 03-15-2005, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No, VMR9, depending on your video card and drivers and such, should be outputting video levels. I believe overlay will expand to PC levels. You can easily check by looking at pluge patterns and ramps on DVE, or deep ramps on Avia PRO. You should not have to use the ffdshow levels slider to achieve video levels.

At one point with old drivers I was not able to achieve video levels in VMR9, so I used ffdshow levels slider, but it still caused banding problems. I was not able to get ffdshow to successfully eliminate the banding. I would avoid ffdshow levels for this reason. You shouldn't have any problems with VMR9, and it is simple to check.
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post #92 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 08:09 AM
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If I have understand things correct with the DVE chapter 14 calibration I should not see any information outside the black and white dots?

So then calibrating blacks I will just see to that I dont have any info outside the white dots and then calibrating Whites I should not have any info outside the black dots??

Am I correct or?

Regards
Daniel
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post #93 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Daniel: you should not really see blacker-than-black, you should generally calibrate black to be the maximum black on your display. However, whites are a different matter. This is subjective, as we've discussed earlier on the thread. With CRT displays, you have plenty of on/off CR range to handle peak whites without any problem. Whether you include peak whites or clip them on a digital display is a user-preference, I personally would lean more towards including them.
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post #94 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 10:50 AM
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Chris: I, too lookd at that particular pattern and wasn't real clear on how to use it properly. Can you describe again, or elaborate on using the patter (the one with the dots) on adjusting the whites. WHether or not you go for clipping?

Thanks,
Scott
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post #95 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Again, it depends on your display type. What you do for a CRT is different, right now I am assuming you are using a device with a hard-limit on on/off CR, a digital.

See posts 41 and 51 in this thread, they discuss the tradeoffs between including peak whites or clipping them on a display with a limit in on/off CR.

You can either clip down to reference white, you can include it all, or do something in between. You also have a similar choice if your particular display color-shifts instead of clips. IMO color shifting is probably more damaging and I would lean towards not seeing colorshifting, hence including everything.
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post #96 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 12:07 PM
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Hi Chris: Thanks, but I wasn't clear. It's is a DLP incidentally. Whether or not I choose to clip whites, my question is more elementary...

What I'm asking is literally _how_ to use that particular test pattern to adjust the whites (to either include above white). I pulled it up once and saw the dots, but didn't understand what to look for and where on that test pattern. I ended up using a different pattern (I think I this thread that pointed me to it as well, posibly by you/Chris), the one with thewhite box inside another white box.

So, can you/anyone explain how the other test pattern (the one with the little dots on it) is properly used?

Thanks,
Scott

NEVERMIND, I found it:

>>David: the DVE pattern has ramps and steps, as bob notes, that are marked at reference black and white by three dots. The areas outside these dots are below black, and peak white. If there is clipping, the brightest and darkest steps (which are peak white, and below black respectively) will not be seen as a distinct step, and the ramp portion will "flatten".<<

Thanks,
Scott
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post #97 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
For white level on DVE, you can use Title 12 Chapter 14 (Reverse Gray Ramps). There are 3 black dots marking white and the outer white bars are just above white. Set the Contrast so the the white bar is just distinguishable from the outer above white bar. You can also use the pattern in Title 13 Chapter 2, the SMTE RP 133 pattern. There's a white box (100% white) that has an interior white box which is lower in intensity (95% white). [Note: the actual white box to use is actually to the left of the solid 100% white box] Set the Contrast until both are equal, then back off until the lower level box is distinguishable from the exterior white box. Joe Kane recommends either of these two patterns for digital displays, but, depending on your display, one of these patterns will probably be easier to use.
Thanks, Joe for the info on where to set contrast with DVE. That is not a very intuitive program and though I was able to figure out where to adjust for brightness fairly easily, I couldn't find out till now what pattern to use for contrast setting.
Problem I'm having now is that even maxing out the contrast setting on my tv (Sony lcd rpt) the interior is not equal to the outer white box. And on the Reverse Gray Ramps the white bar can be distinguished from the outer white bar at the highest contrast setting.
I'm assuming I'm doing something wrong with this, because the tv picture sure looks really bright at this high of a contrast level. Can you, or anyone else, give me some more pointers on this? Thanks.

Update: I think I see what I was doing wrong with the Reverse Gray Ramp image - I thought the bar under the black dots was the above white bar. So now using that image I can set Contrast closer to wha I would have expected it to be.
Still don't understand why I can't match up the two boxes on the SMPTE RP 133.
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post #98 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
 
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With an LCD, there are two things that you may see as you raise your white level: you may see clipping, or you may see subtle colorshifting as one color "runs out." With LCD/DLP etc, and unlike CRT, there is no danger to maxing out your white level. The negative, of course, is loss in image quality due to colorshifting or clipping of white details by setting it to high. You should strive to raise your white level as high as possible on these types of displays, to *just* below the point of clipping or colorshifting. You are trying to maximize as much as possible the available on/off contrast range in the display.

Note! Do NOT do the same for CRT displays, or other phosphor displays (plasmas) as you reduce the life of the display.
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post #99 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 10:22 PM
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Thanks for the info, Chris. Some of this stuff is beginning to seep into my old brain. But think I am still doing too much 'analog' thinking rather than 'digital.'
After this las adjustment with DVE, my contast setting is actually very close to the default setting for the PRO mode on my tv. Still looks a tad too bright to me but I think I've gotten used to watching it on a lower setting. Going to give my eyes a chance to get used to this before making any other adjustments.
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post #100 of 160 Old 03-16-2005, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If it's too bright, the correct solution is to use a neutral density filter to lower the output while maintaining the same on/off CR range. A filter will lower by the same amount the points for black and white. You certainly don't want to be watching too bright an image, this is quite fatiguing! If you lower the contrast for a pleasing image, you are lowering the white point, but you can't lower the black point at all, so you are crushing the possible on/off contrast that you could have achieved.
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post #101 of 160 Old 03-24-2005, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Say, for those reading, this is a pretty good writeup of how calibration and PC versus Video levels differences emerge in the real-world.

Remember that you can't correctly display video levels and graphics levels simultaneously. You may need a separate calibration on your display that you switch between when doing different tasks with an HTPC.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=523614

Thanks cyberbri!
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post #102 of 160 Old 04-02-2005, 03:37 PM
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Great thread! I didn't read it all yet, so I hope I'm not repeating someone.

First a comment about the first post.

Quote:
A DVD is a digital SD source, as such the YCbCr on it was created using the SD 601 equations and should be decoded into RGB using the same SD 601 matrix or color errors will result.
This is very wrong. As can be seen by using GSpot, many dvds are encoded using Rec.709 (or BT.709 or whatever you call it). This info is present in the "matrix coefficients" field in the "sequence display extension" of the MPEG2 header. If it is empty Rec.709 coefficients are assumed.

More info:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82217

Also, when talking about hdtv clips. A number of them is encoded using Rec.709 coefficient, but others use Rec.601 coefficients.

Let me conclude by a question about the lumarange [16,235] of dvd material. Using AviSynth it is possible to see which pixels have a certain luma value.
Many times I see the following when considering a dark frame: the majority of the pixels have Y=16, but also a significant (but pretty much randomly distributed) part have luma between 10-16. How is this possible? Did that happen during processing, resizing, compression (before authoring the dvds) or a combination of them? Don't they clamp the lumarange before compression? For some screenshots (this can be done with the limiter in latest AviSynth version):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...255#post515255

This can happen with the luma for example when resizing:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...324#post205324
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post #103 of 160 Old 04-02-2005, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This is very wrong. As can be seen by using GSpot, many dvds are encoded using Rec.709
No, DVD is a SD source and should be, if encoded correctly, a 601 encode/decode. 709 applies to high-definition content, which should be encoded using the 709 matrix coefficients. If you are moving between the two, this difference in color encoding and decoding needs to be recognized. whether HD or SD material is encoded correctly, or mastered using the correct primaries (which are slightly different between SMTPE C and 709) is a different story...

Quote:
but also a significant (but pretty much randomly distributed) part have luma between 10-16. How is this possible? Did that happen during processing, resizing, compression (before authoring the dvds) or a combination of them?
As discussed, all values from 1-254 are legal values, with a nominal reference range that defines black at 16 and white at 235. the headroom and footroom is included the for reasons explained in my guide. Values can fall outside (and as you have discovered often do) the nominal reference range.

i will read your links/threads when I have a bit more free time, but in the meantime, the issue of values falling outside the nominal reference range is summarized in my writeup here, but also see the thread I linked, paying close attention to Don and Stacey's explanations.
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post #104 of 160 Old 04-02-2005, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
No, DVD (...) should be, if encoded correctly, a 601 encode/decode.
Is that stated in the dvd-specs (which i don't have and thus can't check)? But if that's the case it means that >90% (that's just a guess but i have the impression that most of it is encoded using Rec.709) is encoded incorrectly.

Quote:
i will read your links/threads when I have a bit more free time
Ok, nice. If you do and have comments could you pm me, because i don't visit this forum weekly :)
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post #105 of 160 Old 04-05-2005, 01:45 PM
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Great info, I didn't read everyone's replies so I apologize if this question has been asked, which should be calibrated first, the DVD player or the projector?

I was told in another thread that I should leave the DVD player's settings, but that doesn't match what has been said in this thread.
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post #106 of 160 Old 04-05-2005, 01:49 PM
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Make sure your DVD player is outputting pluge/btb levels first. There may be some sort of black level setting in the setup menu, and you may have to temporarily turn the brightness (black level) on the display to confirm that information/data is being maintained all the way to the display.

Then set everything on it to default. You don't want to use any picture modes or adjustments on the DVD player if possible. You want to calibrate the display itself.
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post #107 of 160 Old 04-05-2005, 05:50 PM
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Thanks cyber, just wanted to make sure that I only calibrate the projector and not both
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post #108 of 160 Old 04-05-2005, 09:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
But if that's the case it means that >90% (that's just a guess but i have the impression that most of it is encoded using Rec.709) is encoded incorrectly.
Why would you think this is the case? I don't have any concrete info one way or the other, and there have been conflicting statements in the past about this, but it still means that if a studio is encoding a DVD in 709, it's making a serious and fundamental mastering error.
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post #109 of 160 Old 04-10-2005, 11:50 AM
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Chris,
See if this makes sense to you. On a HTPC using an NVidia 6600 card, I can set up as the PC background the DVE stairstep pattern that I have tested the values on and clearly the last black step below the dots is 0,0,0, the next black step up is 16,16,16 which should be black. 235, 235, 235 is the next to last white step and the last white step is WTW at 255, 255, 255. I have a capture of this pattern that I can put on an all black desktop and then "scope the output so that 0,0,0 is 0mV, and 255, 255, 255 is 0.713 mV or there abouts using the NVidia's "desktop" controls which do not directly effect the "overlay" controls for the software DVD player. I am assuming that what I have done at this point is to preserve the Studio RGB values on a PC RGB system. Agreed??
If so I can then go and using this desktop set it so that the desktops brightness is not showing BTB and it looks the same as Black but I can just barely see the differentiation of the next step, and WTW looks the same as White but I can see the differentiation of the next step down. BTW this is al done after the greyscale has been properly calibrated. Do you agree so far??
If so I can then go into my DVD player (TT in this case w/ VMR9 and renderless) and using the software players brightness and contrast controls adjust the BTB and WTW as I did on the projector above. Would you agree with this, and could we say that I have calibrated to Studio RGB levels first in the PC, then from that reference to the projector, and then once the PJ is set to the reference, the controls on the software DVD player.
Let me know if you agree with all this and I will come back with some additional questions.

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post #110 of 160 Old 04-10-2005, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
I am assuming that what I have done at this point is to preserve the Studio RGB values on a PC RGB system. Agreed??
Yup. It'd be preserving even if you didn't scope the output, as long as it's being output. I am assuming we are talking VMR9, probably renderless in TT. (For others reading: the VMR9 should be preserving Studio levels by default, regular Overlay usually expands to PC levels by default. This can vary depending on software, drivers, etc etc of course.)


Quote:
If so I can then go and using this desktop set it so that the desktops brightness is not showing BTB and it looks the same as Black but I can just barely see the differentiation of the next step, and WTW looks the same as White but I can see the differentiation of the next step down. BTW this is al done after the greyscale has been properly calibrated. Do you agree so far??
Set "it"? Do you mean the display? I'm confused as to what you are adjusting here. If you mean the video card settings, there isn't a way to have a reference display response really, (that I see), and also there is the danger of lowering the output and clipping BTB below 0mV. Here I am assuming you mean calibrating the display to this desktop that yo've set up above. This sounds good, but I would tend towards preserving the differentiation of peak whites even on digitals. On CRTs, there shouldn't be any problem with peak whites since a CRT won't clip. Try to avoid colorshifting the peak whites though, and this would indicate a pretty high white level setting on a CRT projector anyway...

Quote:
If so I can then go into my DVD player (TT in this case w/ VMR9 and renderless) and using the software players brightness and contrast controls adjust the BTB and WTW as I did on the projector above. Would you agree with this, and could we say that I have calibrated to Studio RGB levels first in the PC, then from that reference to the projector, and then once the PJ is set to the reference, the controls on the software DVD player.
I think I see what you're getting at. I'm not sure how precise this would be, but it would be close. I like the idea of taking screenshots of the rendered image, and looking at the RGB values in paint and getting them lined up that way. I have been extremely busy lately, so this is something on my "to experiment with" list still. I think this method of measuring the actual values of captured patterns (making sure they're captured correctly, I have to figure out the print-screen thing, because screen captures in TT for me captures regular overlay or something because it's expanded and not what I'm seeing rendered).

I think your method relies more on visual alignment, and I think it'd be pretty likely to end up a click off or more, especially if you're not looking at 100% identical patterns on your desktop and in video, because of ANSI and things like that.
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post #111 of 160 Old 04-10-2005, 02:37 PM
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Chris,

Thanks for getting back so quickly,

I have a couple of tools that I use to capture the fames from the DVD that I believe mat be better than doing screen grabs from say TT. The tool I use for this is DGIndex and it seems very accurate.
When I said set "it" yes I was referring to the display device be it a monitor, CRT projector, Digital, etc.
I can use a meter to insure that what is being displayed from the desktop is identical to the DVD playback and that hey are accurate. Most folks don't have that kind of equipment and for practical purposes it is faster to do it by eye. It is being done in a darkened room with none or little reflections coming back to the screen.
Here is what I was driving at with all of this. I think that this method sound pretty accurate and the correct way to preserve Studio RGB. But in using it what I am finding is that the brightness is a few clicks to high and when there is a sene that I know the entire frame is black (16 and measured), the screen isn't completely black. There is a small amount lighting it up. If I then turn brightness down to insure that the screen is black during thus scene (btw, a good one is the first 10 sec or so of chapter 11 of finding nemo), then I feel that I loose some lack detail. This loss is noticable during higher light levels (a good exacple of this is the tux's that come out of the closet in The 5th Element.
I may be fighting the lower ANSI contrast of CRT projectors (LC's) and trying to get them to perform better than they are capable. One of the things I have wrestled with in using these captures is, is it better to set up brightness with only very low light level patterns (say btb to 25%) or setting it with the entire step pattern maybe more representative of what we will normally view?? The low light level pattern will allow you to adjust for great black detail and set the brightness lower, but as the pattern gets brighter, the black detail will go away.
What I wanted to insure was that what I was doing to calibrate the chain made sense and was preserving BTB and WTW.

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post #112 of 160 Old 04-10-2005, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
I may be fighting the lower ANSI contrast of CRT projectors (LC's) and trying to get them to perform better than they are capable.
You surely have more experience than I do, but this is a real-world limitation that is subjective. You can't have complete can't-see-the-screen blackout on a full-black frame (at 16) and preserve full shadow details in brighter (higher APL) scenes. LC helps with this a good deal, but you still have to make a choice when setting your black level: do you prefer complete black-out for those rare frames? Or do you prefer to retain all shadow detail in even the brightest scenes? These are extremes, and most will end up somewhere between these when deciding on a final black level *at the display*.

I wouldn't use a pattern that is brighter than half 50%, like the half-gray plus bars on Avia. A full steps/ramp pattern is very bright, and this is too bright a black level for me personally, but it will make sure you are preserving every tiny bit of detail possible, including probably stuff well below black that may be present.

My way is actually to display a full-black frame(or with just bars), and raise brightness a bit, I sort of know where my sweetspot is subjectively, so that I can clearly make out the screen, but it's still very very dark. I feel this works well in preserving a good bit of detail that a *complete* black would obscure, while still giving you a sense of totally losing the screen when moving from a normal scene to a black frame, for at least a half-second or so. Too much brighter than this and you're not gaining too much detail and you're losing that total black moment or two as your eyes adjust/wear off, and too much darker and you start losing a lot of detail in brighter scenes.

Quote:
What I wanted to insure was that what I was doing to calibrate the chain made sense and was preserving BTB and WTW.
It makes sense to me, but as before as long as you can see BTB and peak whites at the display when you artificially lower white, and raise black, then you're good to go from there to start calibrating. With HTPC, VMR9 should allow this pretty easily by default. I don't want to say that VMR9=correct Studio levels, because you can still screw it up with other software, drivers, etc, ffdshow, but in general if yo're using VMR9 you should be getting Studio levels pretty much right.
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post #113 of 160 Old 04-10-2005, 06:02 PM
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It looks like 30-40% on the screen setting 16 black to black and BTB is invisible is about as good as it gets. I worked on this today on a G90. You get about 90% (OK I'm guessing here) of the black detail and almost complete black when 16 black is on the entire screen (or like you said your eyes think it's complete black when the scene goes there).
This method works very well as far as I can tell to preserve Studio RGB, BTB and WTW information. I'm pretty satisfied with it for HTPC setups.
On TT2.11 we aren't finding that we have to use any post processing at all which is just fine with me.
Now back to the drawing boards to see what I can do to impreve the ANSI CR on these machines......

Thanks,

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post #114 of 160 Old 05-02-2005, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
In a well-designed player, the IRE option will have no effect whatsoever when using digital outputs. If this setting causes any change in the image when using the digital outputs, you should use test patterns to see which option leaves data un-clipped. In this instance, the degree of clipping or image alterations may be severe, so Avia, DVE, or any good test disc will come in handy.
Been reading over your excellent article again, Chris. And am wondering about your above statement.
I recently got the denon 5910 and have it hooked up via hdmi to my sony rp lcd tv. When changing the IRE setting from default of 7.5 to 0 there is a big change in the display. At 0 IRE I can only get the BTB bar to appear on DVE by changing the brightness setting on the denon to +2. Even with brightness maxed out on the tv it doesn't show up.
I'm wondering if this could be due to the digital signal from the player being converted to analog when it gets to the sony. In other words, is your above statement about IRE not affecting the digital outputs only true if the signal remains digital throughout its journey to the screen display?
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post #115 of 160 Old 05-03-2005, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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If there is a change in the digital outputs when adjusting the IRE option, this is sloppy player design. I'm pretty skeptical of this being the case on the 5910.

Quote:
I'm wondering if this could be due to the digital signal from the player being converted to analog when it gets to the sony. In other words, is your above statement about IRE not affecting the digital outputs only true if the signal remains digital throughout its journey to the screen display?
Not sure what's going on in your setup, but no if it's output digitally, it's digital there and IRE is out o the picture. If it gets turned back into analog at some point, it's beyond the player's ability to have any control of external devices and what they are doing in conversion and voltages etc.
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post #116 of 160 Old 05-03-2005, 03:51 PM
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post #117 of 160 Old 05-03-2005, 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by cyberbri
Could the 5910 need a firmware update?
Guess that is possible.:)
I'm not really complaining about it. Just trying to understand what is going on here. The default setting is at 7.5 IRE and it behaves well with that.

By the way. Thanks, cyberbri, for all the excellent links you provide. I've found them very useful.
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post #118 of 160 Old 05-03-2005, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
If there is a change in the digital outputs when adjusting the IRE option, this is sloppy player design. I'm pretty skeptical of this being the case on the 5910.


I would have thought so too. But then I can't disbelieve what my own eyes see. This happens with the DVE pluge and the THX Optimizer patterns. Once I set IRE to 0 the only way I've so far found to get the BTB bar to appear is by adjusting the Brightness setting on the Denon.

Maybe I've got a defective player? Guess I better try emailing denon. I have about 3 weeks yet to return it to Crutchfield if I'm going to have to go that route.


Quote:
Not sure what's going on in your setup, but no if it's output digitally, it's digital there and IRE is out o the picture. If it gets turned back into analog at some point, it's beyond the player's ability to have any control of external devices and what they are doing in conversion and voltages etc.
Unfortunately, this is the only dvd player I currently have on which I can change the IRE settings. Have the denon hooked up to the Sony WEGA lcd rptv only through hdmi at 720p.

Thanks much for the info you've provided.
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post #119 of 160 Old 05-03-2005, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
If there is a change in the digital outputs when adjusting the IRE option, this is sloppy player design. I'm pretty skeptical of this being the case on the 5910.
Well, Chris, I'm sitting here with egg all over my face. I think I found out why I was having trouble seeing the BTB bar with IRE at 0.

With the HDMI hookup, Denon gives two options for output: "HDMI Y Cb Cr" and "HDMI RGB". I had mine set on the first option. When I switch to "RGB" then the BTB pattern appears normally.
Kris Deering talks about these two settings in his review of the Denon. Since the "HDMI Y Cb Cr" allows for 10-bit video output I mistakenly assumed that would work best with my display. Apparently not. :(
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post #120 of 160 Old 05-03-2005, 07:05 PM
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Ahab, what display are you using which needs the HDMI to be set at RGB.

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