Calibration of Hitachi 57F59 with CALMAN - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 02:09 AM - Thread Starter
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After spending a few weeks with the software, and getting a service manual, I have finally gotten my new 57F59 dialed in. The first set of shots here are from the out of the box settings in Standard Temp:





As you can see, it was quite off in tracking as well as all other areas.

I've gotten it adjusted down now to look like this:





This is a great tool for those of us who want to go the extra mile on our displays.
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post #2 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 09:29 AM
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Hi Lee,
Looks good. At the low end though, do you feel that sometimes things look a bit blue in the shadows? Also, what was Y at 100% and how big is your set (inch diag.)?

Best,
jeff
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post #3 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

Hi Lee,
Looks good. At the low end though, do you feel that sometimes things look a bit blue in the shadows? Also, what was Y at 100% and how big is your set (inch diag.)?

Best,
jeff

No, shadows don't seem to be bluish at all.

As for Y, it is 95.4.

This is a 57" diagonal HD CRT RPTV.
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post #4 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 10:13 AM
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Thanks for the info Lee. I've been thinking about purchasing Calman. Do you see a significant improvement in picture quality after your calibration?

Steve
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post #5 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

Hi Lee,
Looks good. At the low end though, do you feel that sometimes things look a bit blue in the shadows? Also, what was Y at 100% and how big is your set (inch diag.)?

Best,
jeff

Jeff - The key is to look at the dE numbers. Even though blue is elevated, it should not be elevated enough at that low of a light level for the high blue level to be appreciably noticeable. If blue were that elevated at a higher light level (say at 100%), it would look like some of my old diving videos.

Lee - Congratulations! That is a phenomenal result.

Later,
Bill

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
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post #6 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssj2 View Post

Thanks for the info Lee. I've been thinking about purchasing Calman. Do you see a significant improvement in picture quality after your calibration?

Yes, a significant improvement indeed. All fleshtones are so more spot on than before, and I've been able to increase the color settings as well, so there is much more vibrancy to the picture now.
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post #7 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 03:17 PM
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Right you are Bill. dE is low at 10%, so should not be a problem. I glanced quickly and say CCT was near 8000k at 10% and was curious what he sees.

by the way, 94 for Y at 100%, I've found to be a good target. Any higher, say 110-120 will accentuate the downward hump in the 20-40% range.

Excellent work, sorry I forgot to mention that before.

Best,
jeff
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post #8 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 10:46 PM
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Hey Lee and Other forum members...

Please bare with me and give me a chance. I just bought this tv and I'm really exicted.

I am a self confessed newbie to the tv calibration scene and I would be very grateful for any help or suggestions from you pros to get me started with my brand new 57f59, so I can it set up correctly. Here is a little background...

I am far from rich, but I got married last October and just bought a brand new house and the wife has given me the green light for the "man cave" of my dreams. So, I planned on doing a high end Hdtv projecter in the basement and possibly a regular flat screen up stairs. I soon found out how expensive a "regular flat screan" was and I also found out thatI could get so much more for the money with a big screen rear projection CRT for the upstairs and save $1,500 compared to DLP, LCD ones that were smaller. To make a long story short, I did a good amount of research on tvs through cnet and various other sites and I felt confident enough to purchase the 57f59 today, as they matched the sale that sears is having on it at $1,199. I really got lucky because after reading the entire 426 post topic on the 57f59 I really got a much better t.v. than I thought leaving the store, after looking at those bright dlps and lcds and heaering all of the bs from the cc sales people.

Well, the T.V. is still in the box and it will stay that way for another week until I move into my new house and I was wondering if you could give me any advice about setting it up and what to do or not to do. Remember, I read the entire 426 post on this tv and I am not a complete idiot to electronics. I am just new to advanced t.v. calibration and I don't want to screw it up. Again, reading the other posts I have some ideas, but I am a newbie and don't want to screw anything up. Some of my questions include:

1) I hear alot about optical and elecronic focus and that I should not do it until 100 - 200 hours of watching? What are these, how do I do them, is that correct about the 100-200 hours and is that different than the hitachi magic focus?

2) What is this 117 pt. manual convergence and should I do it and when?

3) Should I even attempt to get into the service menu after a little practice or will I really screw things up? Lee did you make major changes in the service menu?

4) Can a newbie like myself have any luck with a program like calman and how difficult is it to master and get the kind of results that Lee is getting in the post?

5) Finally, Lee you posted your settings in the other forum in two places, I don't want to bug you and have you post them again, but are you still using the same settings as in your last post to get these recent results with calman shown in this thread. Also, is every 57f59 significantly different from one another that if I used your settings, that you graticiously shared, it would not look as good?

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this and I hope you have suggestions, cause I would love to hear them.

Thanks again,

Hazer
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post #9 of 26 Old 08-12-2006, 11:11 PM
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Hi Hazer,
welcome to the wonderful world of hd and tweaking displays.
here are my short answers to your questions:
1) you may or may not need to focus your set. Some need it some don't. you'll be able to tell if you need to do it or not. this is not where I'd start;
2) convergence aligns the red, green and blue crts so that there is no offset. this helps to make images look sharp (as does focus)
3)Lee can help you with info of how to learn about the sm of this set. it's not difficult, but you ahve to be careful and document all initial settings and be aware of what to no touch when in there. YOU CAN MAKE YOUR SET UNWATCHABLE.
4) you definitely can use calman and a sensor (spyder is the most popular, but others of us use differents one. I have the x-rite dtp-94 and CalMAN supports it beautifully.
5) do not attempt to use someone elses settings. It probably won't hurt anything, but probably won't help either. all of these sets are different and you have to find your own set that works. You can take what Lee shows as what you should also be able to accomplish. I'd also pay attention to his Y value at 100% and shoot for that with your contrast. i.e. with a 100% screen up, try to measure mid-90's Y. this will get you in the "linear" regime for dialing in grayscale.

Best,
jeff
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post #10 of 26 Old 08-13-2006, 06:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazer View Post

1) I hear alot about optical and elecronic focus and that I should not do it until 100 - 200 hours of watching? What are these, how do I do them, is that correct about the 100-200 hours and is that different than the hitachi magic focus?

a. You can perform your optical and electronic focus whenever you want, just be aware that over the first 100 to 200 hrs of use, there are changes in the crt's phosphors, and the electrostatic focus can vary.

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Originally Posted by Hzaer View Post

2) What is this 117 pt. manual convergence and should I do it and when?

a. The 117 pt. manual convergence is just a grid with more adjustment points. It is part of the user menu system. You can perform this anytime as well. Again, convergence will change over time.

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Originally Posted by Hazer View Post

3) Should I even attempt to get into the service menu after a little practice or will I really screw things up? Lee did you make major changes in the service menu?

There are a couple of adjustments you can do right away in the service menu that will not screw anything up. You should get the service manual if you want to do things correctly. I made no major changes to the service menu, just about 10 items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazer View Post

4) Can a newbie like myself have any luck with a program like calman and how difficult is it to master and get the kind of results that Lee is getting in the post?

If you are technically inclined, you should be able to use a program like CALMAN just fine. CALMAN automates all the math for you. It does take some time to notice what really changed on your last iteration, and just how much you should change a particular color. I did not sit down and dial my TV in in just one night. This is one of those areas that you can spend hours playing with. As long as you wrote down your initial settings, you can always put it back the way you had it, without any damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazer View Post

5) Finally, Lee you posted your settings in the other forum in two places, I don't want to bug you and have you post them again, but are you still using the same settings as in your last post to get these recent results with calman shown in this thread. Also, is every 57f59 significantly different from one another that if I used your settings, that you graticiously shared, it would not look as good?

My settings have changed, but not very much, here they are now:
CONTRAST=25%(the biggest change)
BRIGHTNESS=63%
COLOR=45%
TINT= -3 (3 CLICKS TO THE LEFT OF CENTER.)
COLOR TEMP = STD(I've always used this setting)

The only changes in the service menu I would change right off the bat are the following, they are all in the service menu, under the TA1360 menu:

COLORG = 01 (def 00)
STATG2 = 02 (def 00)
APRTR - NTSC = 00 (def 01)
APRTR - SDTV = 00 (def 01)

I can't tell you if there is a significant difference between every machine coming out of Hitachi, though I can tell you that I changed what the factory default settings were in the CUTs and DRVs. I believe that if Hitachi does any changing of the individual set, they are probably in the ISF MODE, which is not accesible directly in the service menu.

Here are my cuts and drv settings I ended up with. I only adjusted the White Balance controls for the Standard Color Temp.

GDRV STD = 57
RDVR STD = 4E
RCUT STD = 7A
GCUT STD = 77
BCUT STD = 79
NOTE: THERE IS NO BDRV STD ADJUSTMENT.

I hope this answers your questions.
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post #11 of 26 Old 08-13-2006, 06:18 AM
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Hey guys! New poster to the forums as well, and JUST purchased an 57F59 too!
I read great stuff about the tv and decided to get it. CCity for $1199 and they honored an online only coupon for 10% AND delivered it for me SAME DAY for free. I can honestly say I haven't had better service in a while!
So here I am ready to enjoy my set......
I have had it running for about 5hrs now and had initially tined down the brightness/contrast......Thanks for such an informative site.
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post #12 of 26 Old 08-13-2006, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Bailey View Post

a. You can perform your optical and electronic focus whenever you want, just be aware that over the first 100 to 200 hrs of use, there are changes in the crt's phosphors, and the electrostatic focus can vary.

On the subject of focusing CRT RPTVs, let me add a note (a caution really). Manufacturers of these sets often intentionally defocus blue to get a larger spot and maintain intensity at high brightness levels (blue runs out steam first). The human eye does not resolve details in blue - so this defocuesd blue does not detract from sharpness. I'm all for focusing red and green (in particular green as the eye is most sensitive here) - but generally leave blue focusing alone.

Dave Hancock
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post #13 of 26 Old 08-13-2006, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

On the subject of focusing CRT RPTVs, let me add a note (a caution really). Manufacturers of these sets often intentionally defocus blue to get a larger spot and maintain intensity at high brightness levels (blue runs out steam first). The human eye does not resolve details in blue - so this defocuesd blue does not detract from sharpness. I'm all for focusing red and green (in particular green as the eye is most sensitive here) - but generally leave blue focusing alone.

This is very much WRONG advice. I have been focusing and white balancing projection television since the late 70s and have repeatedly found that focusing the blue makes a very visible difference. As for getting good gray scale tracking, it should not be a problem. They defocus the blue to ge more output at the high end in order to get a higher color temperature that most calibrations are correcting. After turning down the peak whites it is almost always possible to get good tracking without defocusing blue.

All three tubes should start with good focus electrostatically or electromagnetically, and good mechanical focus. Only if peak whites cannot be achieved at a high enough color temperature should the blue be defocused.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #14 of 26 Old 08-13-2006, 04:24 PM
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Leonard,

I beg to differ! Blue should be focused ONLY if you have instrumentation (colorimeter, spectroradiometer) to verify that peak white does not shift. This individual did not appear to have such, so the advice is to leave blue alone!

I don't really agree that the solution to color shifts is to turn the peak white level down. There are other factors to determine peak white.

Dave Hancock
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post #15 of 26 Old 08-14-2006, 03:46 AM
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Think about it. The set is likely far too high in color temp to start with. Focusing the blue will still likely leave it on the high side of D65 and it will give him a more detailed pix. I have adjusted hundreds of sets with and without instrumentation and can assure you that better results are almost always achieved with better blue focus either way unless you want your whites too blue and the contrast maximized.

Turning the peak whites down is necesary to get the best performance without blooming on this set. Any calibrator who runs it a max white level needs to check his methods. The whole point of defocusing the blue IS to maximize contrast and color temperature. Of course, the linearity of the phoshors and drive circuits affects gray scale tracking and this has to be considered. But in the case of simply trying to improve the pix on what comes from the factory, it is easily done inmost cases.

As I have said before, a large portion of the benefits of calibration can be achieved with simple focus, contrast, color, and brightness adjustments. This doesn't get you to standards, but it does improve on most of what comes out of the box. Calibrators might not want to admit it, but other than getting color temperature and gamma closest to spec, most of what they do that results in a better pix requires more experience and patience than it requires test equipment. Even someone with little experience can get a big benefit from simple adjustments.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #16 of 26 Old 08-14-2006, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Think about it. The set is likely far too high in color temp to start with. Focusing the blue will still likely leave it on the high side of D65 and it will give him a more detailed pix. I have adjusted hundreds of sets with and without instrumentation and can assure you that better results are almost always achieved with better blue focus either way unless you want your whites too blue and the contrast maximized.

A difference of opinion. I was issuing a caution. Blue is not nearly as critical as Green (or even Red) as the human eye cannot resolve it very well (just look at the convergence patterns to see that). But it is a trade off.
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Turning the peak whites down is necesary to get the best performance without blooming on this set.

True on lots of sets, but limiting the blue spot size makes the peak level without blooming lower!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Any calibrator who runs it a max white level needs to check his methods.

A calibrator should be checking for the maximum level with minimum distortion (blooming, geometric distortion, clipping and coloration of highlights). The appropriate peak level may be lower than that (based on viewing conditions, etc.), but the calibrator should determine the peak level and not exceed it.
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

The whole point of defocusing the blue IS to maximize contrast and color temperature.

Well it IS to maximize contrast (peak white level), consistant with the desired gray scale coordinates (usually too blue). If you make the spot smaller than designed, you could well either limit the peak white level that you can achieve, or introduce sudden gray scale shifts in highlights.
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

As I have said before, a large portion of the benefits of calibration can be achieved with simple focus, contrast, color, and brightness adjustments.

I don't disagree with that - if you omit Blue Focus (which is not too easy for lots of ordinary folks anyway).

BTW: An additional caution in adjusting focus (at least electrical focus) in most sets the Focus Block also contains the CRT grid (screen) control pots - don't touch those!!!! (Best trick is to cover those pots with masking tape).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

This doesn't get you to standards, but it does improve on most of what comes out of the box.

Absolutely!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Calibrators might not want to admit it, but other than getting color temperature and gamma closest to spec, most of what they do that results in a better pix requires more experience and patience than it requires test equipment. Even someone with little experience can get a big benefit from simple adjustments.

I'll admit that too (when limited to user adjustments) - but getting the display to the same standards as studio/transfer monitors does need instrumentation (and patience, knowledge, experience and judgement).

Dave Hancock
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post #17 of 26 Old 08-14-2006, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

A difference of opinion. I was issuing a caution. Blue is not nearly as critical as Green (or even Red) as the human eye cannot resolve it very well (just look at the convergence patterns to see that). But it is a trade off.

But there is a clear difference in the pix when blue is focused compared to defocused. Anyone who looks can see that. And these sets are way too hot and have the contrast cranked way too high out of the box every time. How many of these have you done?

[/quote]True on lots of sets, but limiting the blue spot size makes the peak level without blooming lower![/quote]

So you cover up blooming with defocusing? You would trade contrast for detail?

[/quote] - if you omit Blue Focus (which is not too easy for lots of ordinary folks anyway).
BTW: An additional caution in adjusting focus (at least electrical focus) in most sets the Focus Block also contains the CRT grid (screen) control pots - don't touch those!!!! (Best trick is to cover those pots with masking tape).[/quote]

Electrostatic focus is an easy way for a DIYer with half a brain to tweak his set. It is very easy on these models and yes, one should not touch the G2 (screen) controls unless one knows exactly what to do. It only takes reading the labels to be sure that you get the right controls, or noticing that the focus controls are spaced slightly farther apart and are the ones with the larger wires going into the back of the focus/screen block. (Larger wires & spacing due to the higher voltage for focus). It ain't rocket science. Besides, we'll be glad to straighten out the set after they botch it. I have a call scheduled right now to do just that.

[/quote]Absolutely!
I'll admit that too (when limited to user adjustments) - but getting the display to the same standards as studio/transfer monitors does need instrumentation (and patience, knowledge, experience and judgement).[/quote]

Ideally, yes, but have you looked at monitors in many studios and remote trucks lately. How many TV engineers use a colorimeter or spectroradiometer to claibrate their displays? You should market your services to TV stations and production houses.

The stock Hitachi spec for these sets is 10800K and 1mm defocus on the blue beyond the red and green on either side of a focused test pattern line. Actually, most have higher color temp than even that OOTB. Focusing the blue still typically leaves the color temperature in the 7000-9500K range. This is high, but still what most people are conditioned to think makes a pretty pix. The sets bloom and defocus at max contrast as well. Most people would consider one of these to be much improved with just focusing, turning the contrast down to about 60% of max, adjusting the brightness for good blacks, and turning the color down to between 25 and 30. I service these all the time and with those simple adjustments and convergence, clients invariably praise the pix as being better than when the set was new. Some want to spend the hundreds more on precise calibration, but most are blown away by simple visual alignment. Nothing most DIYers could not do easily.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #18 of 26 Old 08-14-2006, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Besides, we'll be glad to straighten out the set after they botch it. I have a call scheduled right now to do just that.

Maybe that says it all.

Dave Hancock
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post #19 of 26 Old 08-14-2006, 01:31 PM
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Well, my point is that certainly there are some idiots out there that should stick to the consumer controls. Most of the folks here and most with a DIY nature can easily adjust the focus and get good results. I just differ with the often self serving "leave it to a pro" refrain that I see here and in repair forums. There are enough incompetent techs and calibrators, and enough intelligent DIYers that one cannot assume that the best course is to let a "professional" handle everything.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #20 of 26 Old 08-27-2006, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought I'd post some pics from the good old SuperBit of 'The Fifth Element'. The blurriness seems to happen when I pause my DVD player. It doesn't look blurry at all when watching the movie.

Fifth Element 1

Fifth Element 2

Fifth Element 3

Fifth Element 4

Fifth Element 5

Any picture taking tips when using a digital camera?
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post #21 of 26 Old 08-27-2006, 09:37 AM
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Lee, how did you get the service manual for the 57F59?

Thanks for posting the specs from your calibration.

Former VOOMER.....now former DISH-er
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post #22 of 26 Old 08-27-2006, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djdickerson View Post

Lee, how did you get the service manual for the 57F59?

Thanks for posting the specs from your calibration.

You have a PM.
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post #23 of 26 Old 03-22-2007, 10:32 AM
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Hello Jeff and anyone else who may help out - I just purchased this Hitachi 57F59 from CC and paid $900 for it delivered (I felt like it was a good price), but I know nothing about calibration other than, to have it done by some service is costly. CC told me that if I purcased an extended warr for $158/2 yrs. I could use this warranty to have someone come in and calibrate the tv. Do you know if this is true, and if not, would it be difficult to do myself and what would I need to buy?

Thanks for your input.
Frank




Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

Hi Hazer,
welcome to the wonderful world of hd and tweaking displays.
here are my short answers to your questions:
1) you may or may not need to focus your set. Some need it some don't. you'll be able to tell if you need to do it or not. this is not where I'd start;
2) convergence aligns the red, green and blue crts so that there is no offset. this helps to make images look sharp (as does focus)
3)Lee can help you with info of how to learn about the sm of this set. it's not difficult, but you ahve to be careful and document all initial settings and be aware of what to no touch when in there. YOU CAN MAKE YOUR SET UNWATCHABLE.
4) you definitely can use calman and a sensor (spyder is the most popular, but others of us use differents one. I have the x-rite dtp-94 and CalMAN supports it beautifully.
5) do not attempt to use someone elses settings. It probably won't hurt anything, but probably won't help either. all of these sets are different and you have to find your own set that works. You can take what Lee shows as what you should also be able to accomplish. I'd also pay attention to his Y value at 100% and shoot for that with your contrast. i.e. with a 100% screen up, try to measure mid-90's Y. this will get you in the "linear" regime for dialing in grayscale.

Best,
jeff

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post #24 of 26 Old 01-06-2008, 11:20 AM
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Sorry, calibration whether ISF or factory is not covered by the warranty. A decent ISF calibrator will cost you about $300 for c calibration. I personally charge $90/hr, guaranty my results and supply before and after cal. test results and settings in and Excell file format.
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certifiedcinemas@suddenlink.net

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post #25 of 26 Old 11-04-2008, 10:39 AM
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I am wondering from all I have seen written here about contrast settings. My TV is in my basement with very little natural light getting in. Is it ok for the TV if my contrast settings are in the 40 to 60 range? I find that the picture seems to be dark when it is in the lower ranges.
I am sorry I have the 57 inch
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post #26 of 26 Old 11-04-2008, 03:11 PM
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Greetings

Use a light meter and a 100% white windowbox pattern. Increase or decrease contrast until the light output reads about 10 to 15 ft-l. This accounts for the diffusion effect of the screen and the light meter.

Without a light meter ... take the same 100% patten and increase and decrease it until it hurts your eyes to look at it ... if it hurts. .. the contrast is too high.

Also remember the needle pulse pattern to track the max do not exceed point for contrast on your TV set. Once you establish this ... then follow the rest of the instructions above.

regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
ISF/THX/TLV Video Instructor
The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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