Free calibration soft (non-excel) - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 3254 Old 11-25-2006, 07:26 PM
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Just curious, what are the changes implemented in the new point release 1.12?

Thanks guys.
Carmine.
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post #272 of 3254 Old 11-25-2006, 07:42 PM
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Any comments on post #275?

Also, when measuring ANSI contrast, aren't we suppose to measure all the white squares and then the blacks? The programs keeps the pattern for about a second, doesn't ask to measure them all as if it were measure full ON/OFF contrast. I'm using "view images".
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post #273 of 3254 Old 11-25-2006, 08:11 PM
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The software itself is not the most important component in the process. A quality instrument is at the top of the list followed by the skill of the user and then the software must be useful. The following is a calibration example from a client using one of the Spyder products versus a GMB Eye-One. The pre calibration results are with the Eye-One after the Spyder said all was good.

I was called in on this case because the owner is sensitive to color accuracy and knew the Spyder was wrong. Most people have never seen right and have nothing to go by.

Lamp based products like this SXRD display are difficult to read accurately and the new LED based DLP's are even more of a challenge.

 

Summary Report.pdf 29.6611328125k . file
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post #274 of 3254 Old 11-25-2006, 09:03 PM
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jeff, what software was used with the spyder and how was it setup
this says NOTHING as long as one doesn't know ALL facts

every now and then someone does a reply in one or another topic trying to compare spyder vs. X

first of all, the spyder's are contact probes, so treat them as such (don't compare them in LCD/DLP projector situations)
second, they're more sensitive than most people realize (measure a tv with normal lighting, then re-measure in total darkness (the room, not the tv) you'll be surprised how much 'noise' it picks up)
third, state you software (the standard colorvision software sucks big time, i remeasured a profile colorvision made with hcfr and rader's ... boy, colorvisions profiling software sure is crap

the above 3 still don't make the spyder a bad colorimeter

fourth: and i find this one quite importent
if you wanna know how accurate the spyder really is, dont quit after ONE probe, test several, THEN you can give an estimated level of error

It's a guy thing. We don't read. We do. We ask questions later. quote by Curt
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post #275 of 3254 Old 11-25-2006, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

I'm making it a personal mission to get all of the folks that are CalMAN users using HCFR back into the fold.

Bill

Now this is what I call an appropriate, constructive response to competition. I won't be leaving the CalMAN fold, but do expect the new user interface to be better than that offered by the HCFR software. How it could be better I don't know and look forward to finding out. The EyeOnePro offer is one thing I look forward to as well. This whole question of whether that probe is meaningfully more accurate than the Spyder2 has been gnawing at me for about a year or so - at least enough that I am prepared to fork over a few hundred dollars to find the answer. I don't consider myself color-perception challenged and calibrating using the Spyder2 has resulted in an image that looks great to me. Perhaps I have just been lucky, and I hold out the enticing possibility that I have yet to see what "accurate" is after 16 years of viewing front projection images.

So, Jeff, if I get that probe and there's no change from results I obtain from the Spyder2, you'll be hearing from me. OTOH, if I see "accurate" for the first time after calibrating with the EyeOnePro, I will duly declare to you that I am not worthy.

Dan
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post #276 of 3254 Old 11-25-2006, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Any comments on post #275?

Also, when measuring ANSI contrast, aren't we suppose to measure all the white squares and then the blacks? The programs keeps the pattern for about a second, doesn't ask to measure them all as if it were measure full ON/OFF contrast. I'm using "view images".

Can anyone clarify this?
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post #277 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

The software itself is not the most important component in the process. A quality instrument is at the top of the list followed by the skill of the user and then the software must be useful. The following is a calibration example from a client using one of the Spyder products versus a GMB Eye-One. The pre calibration results are with the Eye-One after the Spyder said all was good.

I was called in on this case because the owner is sensitive to color accuracy and knew the Spyder was wrong. Most people have never seen right and have nothing to go by.

Lamp based products like this SXRD display are difficult to read accurately and the new LED based DLP's are even more of a challenge.

The errors of the spyder calibration in the pdf is not due to bad hardware, it is due to bad software or errornous use of the sensor (baffle on/off, wrong mode, something).

Spyder TV / Spyder TV pro is way off in most aspects. Never trust it. Use the sensor to get XYZ-data and use the data in a better software.

btw, Y is cd/m2 not fL... You might wanna change that in accucal..
(1fL = 3.4262591 candela/m2.)

// Lyckman
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post #278 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 06:03 AM
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Laric,

I admire your project ... and now in german too

Please allow me 2 informations for the spyder2:

a) for LCD Projectors, in v1.11 I had to select "LCD" instead of "Proj" because measured values with "LCD" are closer to SpyderTVPro results - will see what's happen with v1.12

b) Read time: I guess, there's one decade too less. If I select 500ms, the Spyder reads nearly 5s. If I choose 1000ms, my Spyder2 reads nearly 10s.
Btw: In SpyderTV.exe /support the range for allowed read times are 2s ... 12s.

Regards,
Harry
Btw: Please take a look at my PN regarding your probe - lot of thanx

_________
Regards,
Harry
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post #279 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noizemaker View Post

Just curious, what are the changes implemented in the new point release 1.12?

Thanks guys.
Carmine.

Im not sure myself but one thing I did notice that I am not sure I noticed before was that the greyscale readings topic line where it actually says GREYSCALE also has the Average gamma setting, not sure if that was there but I noticed it today...YIKES, mine is averaging 1.92...Still trying to figure out how to calibrate gamma in general..

btw HCFR - how about adding an ENGLISH forum on your end..

ALSO - how do I link a file for my results..I tried earlier but it doesnt support this ext. obviously..

Rich L

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post #280 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 06:39 AM
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Lyckman,

Your drive by shooting of SpyderTV/Pro software doesn't jive with my experiences. I've never had such good results with SpyderTVPRO from any display device I've ever owned and that includes self calibrating efforts with AVIA, DVE, Monster/ISF, Sound and Vision's Home Theater Tune-Up, Calman, and two professional ISF calibrations by local technicians.

Perhaps when you choose to dismiss a product in such a wide sweeping manner you might wish to offer your reasons why you hold such an opinion. And I gather it is just that: an opinion which of course you are welcome to and free to offer. However, you would seem to be speaking from a position of authority on the subject given what you wrote after what you said about the Colorvision software which might cause some readers to unnecessarily decide to stay away from these products.

Although Colorvision's software is not the subject of this thread, I cannot let your remarks pass without comment. Please respond publicly to this matter since you have publicly attacked Colorvision's credibility.

Wayne
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post #281 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 07:14 AM
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Hello everybody

HDHolic, for ANSI contrast, we just measure a white and a black... it isn't the real procedure, with manu measures and averaging. Actually, our probe is not reliable when measuring contrast. We are working on that problem. So, our priority is to research ways of computing a true contrast value with our probe, and then we could make the procedure inside the software in sync with ANSI recommendations.

Richlo, you are right, I added the gamma average in the main view, just because many people asked it on this forum. The other mods in 1.12 are the view closing bug in full screen mode, a third Delta E curve in RGB histogram when a reference document is defined (the Delta E between measure and reference), and improvement on CIE chart (zoom mode, delta E displayed in tooltips, and optional drawing of Delta E 3 and 10 around white reference). And of course German language support, thanks to Schrauber

Regards
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post #282 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 07:24 AM
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Hi Derek
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

First let me say great looking app HCFR guys, it just gives us at CalMAN a much higher bar to hit with our next versions, which by the way will not need Excel.

Thanks for your compliments, you are really fair play
And we are proud to challenge commercial products like yours... we are just "amateurs"
Quote:


Yes, in fact we have a licensed SDK from Colorvision for the Spyder2, an SDK from Gretag Macbeth for the EyeOne series including the Display2 and EyeOne Pro. We are also working with other manufactures in many areas.

We do not have those SDK. Maybe we will ask them one day, but it isn't a priority for us. We have other wishes for our software in the future
Quote:


As far as who is more accurate in using the Spyder2. Well the data from the Spyder2 is just that data. By reverse engineering the Spyder2 interface dll which was done by a 3rd party and given to the HCFR guys, getting the XYZ data is easy it's only a single call to the S2 dll. However setting up the Spyder2 before you get the data is very important but difficult step and can be a difference by as much as 10% in error if done wrong. The Spyder2 meter can be made to be accurate if you know how to set it up and know what all of the environmental factors that can effect it's accuracy and some environments it's just not well suited for. We have done extensive testing to make sure the way we setup the S2 up is the most accurate for each environment. By just reverse engineering the Spyder2 interface dll you have to make some assumptions about how to setup the S2 and not knowing what all of the factors are. I know this because that's what I did just about 1 year ago for the S2xyY app I released. When I joined Bill on the CalMAN project we got the SDK from CV to make sure the product we provided was accurate. Now knowing what I did I pulled the S2xyY because it could have accuracy issues and our License from CV was for CalMAN and not S2xyY.

In fact, our tests showed S2 is not perfectly reliable with HCFR software. That's certainly the reason why. But we are reliable with DTP-94, for which we have all necessary information to exploit perfectly its results. For us, that's enough: we support our DIY probe, and a commercial probe for those who can't make the DIY probe by themselves, but want to use our software.

Anyway, do not feel so quiet: even if it isn't a priority, we don't like having something not perfect in our software, so we will work on Spyder support one day

Regards
Georges
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post #283 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic
Is CalMan that threatened by HCFR?


Where is that at? I wouldn't mind learning a bit about the differences on drapp1952's comment.

drapp1952- I'd like to see your runs on both programs.
Here are two runs following a calibration first with HCFR, then with CalMAN, with the Spyder2 untouched in placement between runs and no adjustments made before CalMAN was used for the comparison run. Sorry but < 10 is cut off in the CalMAN RGB tracking graph and I want to go back and check how that tracks compared with HCFR. The readings are taken off the screen which helps explain the low IREs being off; I'll get around to taking direct projector readings at some point but have traditionally gone by eye at 10-20%. Subjectively the CalMAN tracking looks closer to what I see at <20%.

I'll do a few more to see if I can pick up more differences between the two softwares and include gamuts. I'll also use the latest HCFR though I wouldn't expect to see fundamental changes in readings from what I understand of the updates.

Dan

 

CalMAN 11-25-06 Spyder2.pdf 124.0517578125k . file
LL
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post #284 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 08:59 AM
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Hi Dan -

They look awefully similar with the exception the obvious 20-30ire..which is typically the hardest area to hit right...

Anyone know where to purchase the DTP-94

Rich L

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post #285 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

Hi Dan -

They look awefully similar with the exception the obvious 20-30ire..which is typically the hardest area to hit right...

Anyone know where to purchase the DTP-94

It's the same as the Monaco Optix XR.

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
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post #286 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 10:39 AM
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re: dtp-94 (aka monaco optix xr) and spyder2 low light sensitivity...

If anyone has both a comparison at low light levels might be in order. my dtp-94 produces very reliable readings down to 0.1-0.2 cd/m^2 Y levels.

I'm speculating that it's not just getting the software to properly configure the hardware. The hardware are different and my opinion is that the dtp-94 does better when light challenged.

Are there any CalMAN owners that have both probes and have done the comparison?

Best,
jeff

P.S. As an aside, the DIY probe is a fantastic idea. I just knew that they (probes) shouldn't be that expensive and that the cost for commercial models had to be due to software costs. We all know developing software is expensive ;-)
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post #287 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

Hi Dan -

They look awefully similar with the exception the obvious 20-30ire..which is typically the hardest area to hit right...

Anyone know where to purchase the DTP-94

The Gamma reading is not close though, which is very important when calibrating. I'd also like to see some DTP-94 vs Spyder2 readings.
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post #288 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

I'm speculating that it's not just getting the software to properly configure the hardware. The hardware are different and my opinion is that the dtp-94 does better when light challenged.

You are absolutely right, the chalenging area are sub 30IRE... That's were all differences are made... It is also that very area that is (IMHO) very good on our probe

Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

As an aside, the DIY probe is a fantastic idea. I just knew that they (probes) shouldn't be that expensive and that the cost for commercial models had to be due to software costs. We all know developing software is expensive ;-)

Yes, and now you have the software

Our probe has many cons (IR sensitivity so may require an IR filter as well as the "profile" thing) but beside that (and we have solutions to those problems), it cost around $50 to build... That was (is) one of our goal... Allow many people to have their own system so they can tune as many time as they want, each time they change sources, room details, screen... etc...


Last, 1.12 add nothing on the probe reading side...

--Patrice

French speaking home theater HCFR Forum
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post #289 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

The Gamma reading is not close though, which is very important when calibrating. I'd also like to see some DTP-94 vs Spyder2 readings.

I think the general shape of the curves is about the same although the CalMAN indicates the gamma as 2.85, off the 2.2 target, that is probably related to the autoiris1 setting on my Pearl; gamma was at default setting otherwise. I'll do runs with the autoiris off and see what happens.

Dan
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post #290 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

Are there any CalMAN owners that have both probes and have done the comparison?

I'll compare with the Spyder2 by late next week after the Optix XR package arrives.

Dan
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post #291 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 12:13 PM
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Dan-


On page 8 there is a comparo of the spyder and DTP-94 ..with HCFR software

Rich L

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post #292 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georges G View Post

Hi Derek

We do not have those SDK. Maybe we will ask them one day, but it isn't a priority for us. We have other wishes for our software in the future

In fact, our tests showed S2 is not perfectly reliable with HCFR software. That's certainly the reason why. But we are reliable with DTP-94, for which we have all necessary information to exploit perfectly its results. For us, that's enough: we support our DIY probe, and a commercial probe for those who can't make the DIY probe by themselves, but want to use our software.

Regards
Georges

Georges that is why I pulled the program I wrote a year ago S2xyY, because of the reliable/accuracy issues. Once I had access to the SDK for the S2 I was not privileged to use it for S2xyY so it got pulled.

BTW, I do belive in DIY I do a bunch of it myself, hardware and software. In fact not to help out our competition but here is a good service in the US for short run PCB's that I use. http://www.pcbexpress.com/

I also believe the market has more than enough room for a free and affordable commercial calibration system. In fact the market is outgrowing both of us by a huge margin.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #293 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

Dan-


On page 8 there is a comparo of the spyder and DTP-94 ..with HCFR software

Thanks for the reminder. I'd seen that post and knew there was another reason to order this sensor. It looks like it works very well with HCFR for the lower IREs especially.

Dan
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post #294 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mystery View Post

Lyckman,

Your drive by shooting of SpyderTV/Pro software doesn't jive with my experiences. I've never had such good results with SpyderTVPRO from any display device I've ever owned and that includes self calibrating efforts with AVIA, DVE, Monster/ISF, Sound and Vision's Home Theater Tune-Up, Calman, and two professional ISF calibrations by local technicians.

As you can imagine my experience differ from yours. I have not tried TV / TV Pro on my own display but we have tried it at a friends several times, and the result was always way of. Both grayscale and contrast/brightness. Nothing wrong with the Spyder II sensor though.

I'm having a hard time to believe that the TV Pro gave you a better result than a professional calibration. Do you have any numbers to back this up?

Imho, TV Pro is a good tool if you're not able/capable/interested to do the calibration based on the raw data returned from the sensor. But the result will never be as good as if you did. TV / TV Pro is a shortcut. But not an accurate one. I will try to get some measurement posted to back this up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mystery View Post

Perhaps when you choose to dismiss a product in such a wide sweeping manner you might wish to offer your reasons why you hold such an opinion. And I gather it is just that: an opinion which of course you are welcome to and free to offer. However, you would seem to be speaking from a position of authority on the subject given what you wrote after what you said about the Colorvision software which might cause some readers to unnecessarily decide to stay away from these products.

I'm not sure what you mean but,

I have nothing against colorvision or their products. Far from. But if you have interest enough for calibration to read through this whole thread, which is about a software that is far superior to all "light" colorvision products, you should not consider buing one of them (imho).

Color HCFR, CalMan, Accucal. All is better. But only if you understand how to use them. How to interpret the colometry data. How to adjust your device accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mystery View Post

Although Colorvision's software is not the subject of this thread, I cannot let your remarks pass without comment. Please respond publicly to this matter since you have publicly attacked Colorvision's credibility.

Wayne

No problem

I'm very interested to have before/after reading of your device. The ISF-guys must have left you with some documentation. Maybe you could post it.

// Lyckman
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post #295 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 01:40 PM
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So...

Who does correct calculation for the gamma...

Color HCFR or CalMAN

It looks like CalMAN reports a higher gamma than Color HCFR. It's the same with the predecessor excelsheet (Colorimeter007)..

// Lyckman
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post #296 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 01:57 PM
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I was trying to get a comparison between the spyder2pro and HCFR DIY probes over the weekend, but the spyder lacked a dll file to run with HCFR so I had to give up.

But I have managed to get my DIY working. I managed to address some of the addivity issues, that is lower them to 15% from 30% on my PC LCD screen by postioning the probe closer as suggested by Laric.

Now I have got onto some actual readings I'm in a learning curve as what does what.

My first question is, is it possible to set the basics of brightness and contrast via the HCFR software and DIY probe?

I had to revert to my DVE disc to set brightness, black level first.

Next question is about color and tint; what can you do if the CIE triangle is way off with one color, in my case green on my projector. It seems that color and tint only adjust balance between the primaries not individual saturation.

I've attached 3 zips with HCFR runs with my DIY probe.
I have alot to learn to get these right, so far I am a bit off base.
The phillips one I got the RGB tracking together nicely, delta e looked good, but dispite the RGB fitting nice the gamma went awol and the picture look awful dispite the grey scale right on the money.

The next 2 is my AE900 runs, here I am trying to get the basic CIE triangle on track.
Thes were done in Cinema1 with no filters and my screen is just a painted surface(firehawk shade of grey)
Run 001 I tried to do color and tint via the HCFR software, but I am fighting green.
I had a small tweak of individual RGB and got some tracking.
Run 002 I did color and tint via DVE. Green is an issue again, I could see errors whilst tweaking the levels in DVE, but couldn't seem to do anything about them.

I see inaccuracies with my results through 2 pieces of software, and it is this issue which led me to build a DIY probe, to confirm what I was seeing in DVE and visually when watching movies.

anyone got any ideas on how to tackle the green saturation issue.

 

Phillips170B6_PB_cal_03.zip 2.4375k . file

 

AE900E_PB_C1_001.zip 1.2880859375k . file

 

AE900E_PB_C1_002.zip 1.2890625k . file

Masterpiece Calibration Ltd
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post #297 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by <^..^>Smokey Joe View Post

I was trying to get a comparison between the spyder2pro and HCFR DIY probes over the weekend, but the spyder lacked a dll file to run with HCFR so I had to give up.

Make sure the CV_Spyder.dll file is copied to the Color_HCFR directory.

// Lyckman
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post #298 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 03:17 PM
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SmokeyJoe,
I've also spend a lot of time with HCFR learning by doing ...
The dll was no problem. Just have to copy cvspyder.dll from folder SpyderTV into the HCFR folder. So my Spyder works fine (except below of IRE 40).
I agree with you, my Green color from 0% Sat to 90% Sat is also way off.

But I've an other question to Laric or Georges:
I'd like to manual adjust the black level because of Spyders low brightness reading problem.

So I used your DVD-Pattern "Luminosité". With this, a white square appears on the right side below of the Patternline, if I rise the black level.
Question: For the correct adjustment - should this square be visible or not?

Regards
Harry

_________
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Harry
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post #299 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyckman View Post

Who does correct calculation for the gamma...

Color HCFR or CalMAN

It looks like CalMAN reports a higher gamma than Color HCFR. It's the same with the predecessor excelsheet (Colorimeter007)..

So that people are not confused, Colorimeter 007 is NOT a predecessor of CalMAN. Version 1 of CalMAN was being used be several people participating in this thread before Shawn ever started modifying Gary Fritz's old spreadsheet. If you check the SpyderTV review, you will find ample documentation on such. Just under a slightly different user name.

As for who is correct, our method of handling gamma is better than most of what I have seen on the market. It is also one area where we have put effort into differentiating CalMAN. If you have questions regarding how HCFR handles gamma, then they should feel free to post. As for CalMAN, I would respectfully point people to our forum where such questions are more appropriately handled there. (And have been)

Bill

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post #300 of 3254 Old 11-26-2006, 07:02 PM
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Okay...now that I have a decent tracking and the primary and secondaries are not so bad actually - with my Mits 3000U...my only problem is GAMMA where it stating an avg of a measely 1.38, which is rediculous...I know I need to be shooting for 2.2 - 2.5..

There is a huge PEAK between 20-60 (yellow line). My mits allows me to adjust HIGH, MED, LOW in a gamma setting, but Im am not sure if I should be lowering Medium, Med and Low, and how do I adjust, right now my settings are zero across the board, do I decrease those or do I need to me making some other adjustment..

 

HC3000.zip 0.935546875k . file

Rich L

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