Free calibration soft (non-excel) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3254 Old 12-10-2006, 07:37 PM
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I did the other day thanks, and like you said, didn't find any differences.
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post #632 of 3254 Old 12-10-2006, 07:41 PM
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then one of the two is either overstating or understating.

Rich L

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post #633 of 3254 Old 12-10-2006, 07:58 PM
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To bad I dont live in RI...but my uncle does..Central Falls..ive never been there..

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post #634 of 3254 Old 12-10-2006, 08:05 PM
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So, how big is your Mits projecting? That must be a mean machine ! I'd love to see pics of a projected movie now that's been calibrated. What kind of screen do you use?
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post #635 of 3254 Old 12-10-2006, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

So, how big is your Mits projecting? That must be a mean machine ! I'd love to see pics of a projected movie now that's been calibrated. What kind of screen do you use?

Its a measly 100" screen... ..

I'll take some pix in a minute...I know people crap about screenshots..but I for one..love to see them..Im no camera man...so hopefully I can take some decent shots..

I have a Cinetension Elite HighContrast Grey Electric screen....

Rich L

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post #636 of 3254 Old 12-10-2006, 08:16 PM
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Measly?!? I have to settle for a "measly" 51" . You can PM you pics, that way no one craps about it
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post #637 of 3254 Old 12-10-2006, 08:32 PM
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well in the PJ world 100" is like a starter kit..

behind the screen when rolled up is a tiny 55" Mits 55807 CRT..which I just calibrated to today.>FLAT greyscale..and 2.5ishgamma..which I prefer for CRT..

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post #638 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 03:54 AM
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Was this comparison of sensors posted yet on avs?
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/v...hp?p=170319057
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post #639 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 06:24 AM
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Hi HDHolic

About gamma, after checking your measure file, I must say there is no bug in the software Anyway, visually, I can understand your gamma looks fine in dark scenes. But actually, it's a poor setting. The trouble is not in low IRE levels, but in high IRE levels. You have a huge clipping at 100 IRE, and even 90 IRE is clipped. Your contrast setting is too high.

There are at least three different ways to compute average gamma, and all can be discussed. We compute it by averaging values on the log gamma curve, with equal ponderation on all "gamma-able" levels (ie: all levels except 0 and 100). And every IRE level gamma is computed relatively to IRE 0 and IRE 100, the extrêmes. So, gamma values are coherent only when IRE levels 0 and 100 are correctly set. Without good references, even if the math formula is right, you cannot have any valueable result.

To see it concretely: check the "editable data" check box, and in XYZ units, change Y for IRE 100 from 84.573 to 101.5. Then, you will see a 2.22 gamma value. Clearly, your white is clipped, you must first solve this problem before setting gamma on your projector.

Well, I think you have the last beta: you can use special test pattern in the new Advanced menu to help you set your white level. Or use the near white grayscale measures.

About your wishlist: most of them will wait after next 1.2 release... Anyway, one is already available, since the very beginning:
* Customizable RGB Levels line thickness(thinner) for easier visualization of level errors
You can open context menu with right mouse click and use graph settings to change colors, pen style and thickness of every curve, on any graphic. All those settings are saved in your .ini file.

* Primary, Secondary colors continuous measures with reference values displayed for easy/fast calibration of color points
Well, that one may be included too, it's quite simple. I will check that

For your other wishes, it's general ergonomic improvement, not a few lines of code which can be included fastly in the latest hours before delivery

Regards
Georges
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post #640 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 06:30 AM
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Hi, richlo

Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

Im just posting this excerpt from George regarding the 2.2 and FROM STANDARD issue..I think this might clarify it..

FromPage15

Well, I must confess I made a big mistake. All what I wrote is wrong. Our specialist confirmed to me the "from standard" gamma option has no relation with NTSC IRE levels. I misunderstood this part of math, sorry (anyway, I'm not very skilful with NTSC, excuse my PAL/French ).

If I can, I will edit this message to remove those bad advices...

Regards
Georges
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post #641 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 10:09 AM
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Hi guys,
I played a bit last night with HCFR software (latest beta) and was planning on making some comparisons to CalMAN using my dtp-94 on my tosh 50hx81 (rp crt). I have a set of data from July that I think should be good (grayscale flat, dE less than 2 except at 0 and 10% stim). during July I made several passes, on several days up to a week apart, using CalMAN, toolcrib (x-rite test app) and a stand-alone dtp-94 app based on the the one distributed with the SDK. Results were very consistent over that extended time period.

I started with HCFR and immediately noticed a potential issue. My red was about 10% higher than it had been in July. grayscale tracking was flat, like it had been in July, but it was almost 10% too low (shifted red) in color temp.

I switched to CalMAN and got the same thing, using V2.01 and V2.1 (the latest).

I didn't get a chance to try Toolcrib. I also plan tonight to measure my lcd computer monitor tonight. It has a built-in D65k profile that I've measured before and the dtp-94 has been right on.

I do note that the ambient temp is more than 5 deg F lower in that room this time of year compared to July - probably closer to 7deg. I also note that the HCFR guys have implemented the MT command. The meter was reading about 21.something deg C. My set was fully warmed up as it had been on for over 2.5 hours at the end of the run. The meter had been powered on for 1.5 hours.

I did calibrate the meter in the meter selection dialog box. When I had used meter with toolcrib, I note you have to be *very* careful to follow these steps, in sequence, before you can believe the measurement. 1) establish the USB connection (verify by getting serial number, firmware revision, etc.), 2) reset the meter (soft reboot so that you have the meter in a predictable initial state), 3) calibrate amp. offsets. 4) then take readings.

I see a grayed out option for loading a profile with the dtp-94. Can you verify that some odd profile is not being selected? (IMO, for this application, we only want to use the factory calibration profile (profile 0 as per the RCI manual).

Can you verify you follow the above steps?

You don't use any of the "dangerous" features from the manual regarding time constants and temperature offset?

In CalMAN, I tried several compensation options to see if maybe there was an issue with there. The different choices changed the numbers slightly, in a systematic way. Not enough to account for 10% upward shift in red.

I am also concerned that my meter's gone bad. I will post tonight with my results from toolcrib and standard D65k LCD. I will also make sure I RI the meter (this should put it back to factory default).

Sorry for the long post.
Best,
jeff
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post #642 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 10:17 AM
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Hi Jeff

If you want to check exactly what ColorHCFR does with your DTP-94, you can check the "debug" box in DTP parameters. Then, all commands sent to the probe, and of course the answers received, are all stored in the decoder.log file. You will find this file in your ColorHCFR installation directory. It's a simple text file you can open with any editor.

You will see we do not use "dangerous" commands

Regards
Georges
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post #643 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 10:30 AM
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Georges,
Will do. My plan will be to do a set of measurements on the standard LCD display with the D65k profile. I measured it before and it was very close to D65k. I will post my results probably 12 hours from now ;-)

Best,
jeff
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post #644 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 11:19 AM
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Here's another cut at a parts list for the HCFR sensor. I've tweaked a few things. I've used a cheaper USB connector. I found what I think is a mistake in the Mouser catalog with the chip socket, so I picked another one. Machine pin sockets are relatively expensive, though. I added a four meter USB cable and a ten foot mono audio cable. I already had the IR led for the audio cable in the list. This should allow building the complete sensor including the ability to control a dvd out of sight of the sensor. I still haven't found a case for the sensor that is similar to the one used in France, but I'll keep looking. My goal for this is not just to get a list for my personal order. I'd like to come up with a reference list so anyone in the U.S. can easily order the parts and make a working sensor. So, I'd appreciate anyone more hardware knowledgeable than me to review this list in detail and provide feedback. Once this list gets settled, I want to order the parts and build one of these things and see how it goes. The current cost for the parts on the list now stands at $33.94, including the cables.

C1, C3, C4 - 100nF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
3 x $.09@ Mouser 581-SR215E104MAR Radial Monolithic Capacitors 50V .1uF 20% Lead Free

C7 - 220nF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
1 x $.26@ Mouser 581-SR205E224MAR Radial Monolithic Capacitors 50V .22uF Z5U 20% Lead Free

C5, C6 - 33pF (CMS 1206 or trad. 5.08)
2 x $.06@ Mouser 140-50N5-330J-RC Ceramic Disc Capacitors 50V 33pF NPO 5% Tol

C2 - 100µF 10v (Chemical Polarized)
1 x $.06@ Mouser 140-XRL10V100-RC Radial Electrolytic Capacitors 10V 100uF 20%

R1 - 3.3K
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-3.3K-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 3.3Kohms 0.05

R2 - 150R
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-150-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 150ohms 0.05

R3 - 2.2K
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-2.2K-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 2.2Kohms 0.05

R4, R5, R6, R7 - 0R (Straps)
Cut off resistor leads.

R8, R9 - 27R
10 x $.04@ Mouser 291-27-RC 1/4W 5% Carbon Film Resistors 27ohms 0.05

D1 - Led Green 3mm or CMS 1206 (rise with dimensions copper)
1 x $.13@ Mouser 604-WP132XPGD LED Standard GREEN DIFFUSED

D2 - Led Infra-red 5mm (gone up crossing)
2 x $.21@ Mouser 782-TSAL6400 Infrared Emitting Diodes 25 Degree 25mW

SW1, SW2 - monostable Switch 5.08 * 7.62 (Microphone switch)
2 x $.26@ Mouser 688-SKHHAJ Tactile Switches 6.0x6.0x4.3mm 100gf

X1 - Quartz 4Mhz
1 x $.36@ Mouser 815-AB-4-B2 HC49 MHz Range Metal Can Crystals +/-20ppm 4MHZ

Q1 - NPN - BC547
1 x $.06@ Mouser 512-BC547BTAR Small Signal Transistors NPN Si Transistor Epitaxial

P1 - Standard Base plate Ci USB B (ref. Farnell 152432)
1 x $.71@ Mouser 806-KUSBX-BS1N-B USB Connectors B TYPE RECEPTALCE BLACK

U1 - PIC 18F2550 (Microchip) (ref. Farnell 9321250)
1 x $7.83@ Mouser 579-PIC18F2550-I/SP PICmicro - PIC18Fxxx Flash MCU's 32kBF 2048RM FSUSB2

U2, U3 - Sensor TAOS - TCS230 (CMS SO8, ref. Farnell 4891211)
2 x $5.69@ Mouser 856-TCS230D Color Sensor TriColor Sensor LTF

K1 - Connector Mono Jack 3.5 for Ci (ref. Farnell 152206)
1 x $.70@ Mouser 161-3412-EX Phone Jacks PHONE 3.5mm MONO

1 Support 28 Pins (ref. Farnell 4242403)
1 x $1.22@ Mouser 649-DIP-328-001B DIP Sockets 28C OPEN FRAME

1 Case ABS, 65*100*20 mm
(I haven't been able to find anything that I like.)

1 USB cable A-B 4 Meter
1 x $5.52@ Mouser 571-1487598-1 USB Cable Assemblies USB, A-B, 25/20 BLACK 4 M

1 Mono audio cable 120 inches
1 x $2.78@ Mouser 172-1281 Audio Cords 3.5 MONO PL-S/T 120
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post #645 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 11:27 AM
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Looks fine to me...

4m USB may be a bit short, you can find 5 or 6m for less than $3 (at least here in Europe).

--Patrice

French speaking home theater HCFR Forum
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post #646 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

My purpose for this comparison was to show the differences in accuracy. I further tested another free spreadsheet available in these forums, and it gave me results similar to Calman's gamma curve. Since CalMan creators worked with Colorvision and have the SDK for the probe, I feel theirs is accurate.

With that being said, I still love the features that HCFR provides and will continue to use those. For gamma calibration, I feel it should get users in the ballpark but not 100% accurate. Maybe an extra option in references for a "Corrected Gamma" calculation can be implemented .

Keep up the good work HCFR!

Well, if you could give me a link where I could find a spreadsheet with a gamma calculation you consider correct, I would be curious to look at it to see the formula used...

Regards
Georges
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post #647 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 11:44 AM
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HDholic,
Are you refering to rader's spreadsheet? If so, when I compared it's gamma to CalMAN, the rader result was low compared to CalMAN. e.g. rader would show 2.0, CalMAN would show 2.5.

I don't trust the math on gamma for rader's sheet. In that thread, another poster critiques the rader sheet. it has many issues including inconsistent usage of transformations. here's the link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...96#post9002296
(last page...)
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post #648 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 12:00 PM
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Maybe you have the version of rader's sheet that I hacked on ;-) I withdrew it (deleted it) from the thread...

Read the post on the last page. I agree with his statements that the gamma calc. is flawed.

Best,
jeff
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post #649 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 12:11 PM
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BTW, a few pages ago I posted this link http://poynton.com/GammaFAQ.html. Maybe that can help some.
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post #650 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 12:11 PM
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Thanks Patrice. I substituted this.

1 USB cable A-B 15 feet
1 x $5.48@ Mouser 601-30-3007-15 USB Cables and Connectors USB A - B CABLE 15 FT VER 2.0

15 feet seems to be the longest USB cable normally sold here. A quick search on the net didn't yield much under five dollars. I did find some cable ends that could be used to build a cable. Do you have any idea if Cat5E patch cable could be used to build a good USB cable? I happen to have a lot of that.

Steve
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post #651 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 12:26 PM
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Poynton's reference, IMO, is confusing because he's folding in notions of the transfer function. I dug up the discussion/links I made awhile ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5&page=6&pp=30 and post #170 in particular which summarizes what I'd).

I view (maybe wrongly) that calculating gamma is independent of Rec 601/709/transfer functions, etc. It's a data analysis issue. You take some measurements and you want to see how Y is behaving. My post and the reference I link above it is based on that. You'll see some like it and others don't. I like what CalMAN does, for the record.

Best,
jeff
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post #652 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greeno View Post

I like what CalMAN does, for the record.

Hence why I use it for Gamma calibration .
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post #653 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

right click the pattern for more info..

Thanks Rich for that tip!!! Guess a manual would be nice in english:
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post #654 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georges G View Post

Hi bean-66

It's already available, on option. Right click on luma chart, and check the options you need.

Regards
Georges

Georges, Thanks for a great piece of software. Its just a learning curve thing for me right now!!!
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post #655 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 02:01 PM
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Hey Bean -

dont sweat the learning curve, most of us are still in the infancy stage when calibrating, but it is great that we got a free software that kicks a&s...it may not be perfect just yet, but its getting there and the more and more we use it - the more you'll understand how things work...

thanks for some great insights from the guys who just know more than us..and are willing to help out

btw..there will probably be no step by step manual for this but more of a help function that will explain the functions within

Rich L

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post #656 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bean-66 View Post

Thanks Rich for that tip!!! Guess a manual would be nice in english:

Soon
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post #657 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ki_ View Post

Soon


I dont mind being wrong...

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post #658 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 05:45 PM
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Re: All Colorvision hardware the same: Does this really apply for those looking to calibrate front projectors, specifically lcd. the marketing of colorvision implies that spyderii Pro is required for this. I'm of the assumption that it's merely the software that is different and that this great project will deal with this..so I guess in summary...spyderII express + this hcfr project all that is needed (other that time and patience) to calibrate a FP?

Cheers
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post #659 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 06:34 PM
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Pod is identical its the software that makes the difference in price...so Spyder2express is the way to go with HCFR..thats all you need..

Rich L

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post #660 of 3254 Old 12-11-2006, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Measly?!? I have to settle for a "measly" 51" . You can PM you pics, that way no one craps about it

My camera stinks...I tried taking some and my pictures look blurry (yes, I paused it )

Rich L

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