Bad isf calibration - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 11:26 AM
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thanks Gary, I thought it was something like that.
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post #122 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post

If you ever saw "That's Life" and "Rogue Traders" you will know that even with those bodies you state, you can still get bad service withe little recompense. Not all join those bodies either, and in some cases the membership is worth less than the paper it is printed on. Sorry, but that's the truth. I don't think I've seen an ISFer mentioned on Rogue Traders just yet either, have you?

Yes, I've seen 'That's Life' and 'Rogue Traders', and on both programmes I've seen the series direct the complaint to the FMB, who have then kicked the person concerned out of their organisation. Same the plumbers association.

Of course there are builders who aren't in the FMB, that's my whole point! Being a member is an indication of quality, and the knowledge that the builder wants to be a member (otherwise he wouldn't join) and will subsequently try not to be kicked out.

The amazing thing here is that anyone is arguing against poor calibrators having their ISF certification withdrawn. Who the hell wants them to sully ISF's name? The good calibrators? Of course not!

Why on earth do you think ISF policing its members is a bad thing? I can't think of a single good reason.

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post #123 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 11:34 AM
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I didn't say policing it was a bad thing, I'm just saying your blowing this all out of proportion and bad things can happen in any industry.

Greeno,

I've just punched the numbers into Colorfacts and that comes up with a gamma of 1.96 as well, so it looks like both programs are using the same formula. I'll have a look at another program that uses Rec709 and see what that comes up with (if I can find it - I'm in the middle of a reformat right now).

Gary

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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #124 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Pecker trolling in this thread...

'TROLLING' - Making comments intended to provoke an angry response.

How am I trolling? Is that the level of debate here?

People disagree with you, so you throw an insult at the person you're disagreeing with, rather than indulge in intelligent discussion?

All I've said is that there should be a complaints procedure with ISF if any customers has a grievence with any of their certified calibrators.

Gary says builders & plumbers don't have them.

I post links to show they do.

How the hell is that 'trolling'?

It's constructive criticism and debate.

The only trolls hear are the people who insist ISF should throw a seminar, set an exam, then be able to wash their hands of calibrators, irrespective of how poor their work might be.

Now that's an attitude likely to provoke an angry response.

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post #125 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 11:46 AM
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I didn't say they didn't have them, I was saying that you can still get bad service from them despite them, as those programs I mentioned proved on numerous occasions. Master Builders cropped up more times then I care to remember on TL, and if those issues had been resolved by that particular body, it wouldn't have appeared on tv.

Oh, and no one is insisting anything, you're just making inaccurate assumptions,

Gary

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #126 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

The amazing thing here is that anyone is arguing against poor calibrators having their ISF certification withdrawn. Who the hell wants them to sully ISF's name? The good calibrators? Of course not!

ISF, as it's been stated many times in this thread, doesn't certify to anything but the fact that the person took a short course and completed it in a satisfactory manor. What's to be "withdrawn"?

Quote:
Why on earth do you think ISF policing its members is a bad thing?

The only possible thing ISF could do, as they are presently constituted, is remove a name from their list of people who have taken their course. How would they be able to do that in a fair manor?

It seems to me that the horse that you are beating to death is that the working professional calibrators should form and fund an association to "board certify" and "review periodically" the competence of it's members.

This association, based on my understanding of what you have written, would also adjudicate disputes between customers and members. Of course, in our system of government, laws would have to be passed on a state level to make any punitive action binding beyond denying membership. At some point, probably as soon as a calibrator (or a TV he had worked on) crossed a state line, the feds would become involved.

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post #127 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 11:57 AM
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Trolling is the act of lurking on a bridge that people want to cross and demanding a toll.

You tried to use this thread as evidence of bad calibrations for proof of your stance - even though it has been proven thru calibration reports that D65 was achieved. Yet you want to carry it on since you know it is a bridge that people cross - and you enact a toll.

Time to put this thread out of its misery - start your own thread on ISF certification if you are so hot about the topic.
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post #128 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:06 PM
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I live in the UK, and we wouldn't have any of those problems with state lines, etc.

As I've said, we already have trade organisations which behave in the way I suggested.

You may well be right about having those problems on the other side of the pond.

For the record (and for the 153rd time) I believe most ISF calibrators do a damn good job, are hard-working, professional, and deserve not to have their reputation dragged through the mud.

I am only commenting on the 'bad apples'. Sorry if anyone has not understood this.

RE:

"Trolling is the act of standing on a bridge that people want to cross and demanding a toll."

I think you're a little confused, that's 'tolling'.

Steve W
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post #129 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post

I live in the UK, and we wouldn't have any of those problems with state lines, etc.

That reference was a joke with just a little grain of truth in it. It was intended to point out the obvious fact that to do what you suggest is not a simple matter for ISF to fix.

Quote:
As I've said, we already have trade organisations which behave in the way I suggested.

We do to, but ISF isn't a trade organization with paying members to support what you suggest.

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post #130 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:25 PM
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krasmuzik, you have demonstrated (and displayed) an honour among ISF'rs as a whole that is sadly lacking in most aspects of HD industry. The ISF pro calibrator that I had was nothing but the epitomy of professionalism, going out of his way to demonstrate what his ministrations would accomplish and warning me several times in advance that although I might be surprised at the end result, it WAS the way the film producers expected their craft to be displayed.

The HDTV industry has tried their damndest to brainwash the consumers into thinking that HDTV is best offered ONLY in a retina-melting vivid or torch or blindingly brightness'd mode. With colours that are so vulgar, they are rarely seen in nature.

We see it in stores, we see it in other people's homes, we see it just about anywhere a set that has out-of-the-box settings has been turned on and then left on.

I laud the good people who are dedicated to their craft and take the time to educate the consumer on the true beauty that is possible with this technology.

Well done, good people. I wish your self-discipline in ensuring that your client base becomes an EDUCATED client base was more prevalent throughout this entire indiustry. Educated in the film industry's goals, educated in the raison d'etre of HDTV, educated in the whys and wherefores of this form of communicatrions in general.

Ottawa Ontario Canada
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post #131 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:38 PM
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Greeno,

Using HCFR I get a gamma of 2.23 using optimised regression, and 2.28 with camera gamma applied.

Gary

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #132 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:41 PM
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Frost

Just to be clear I was quoting Zygmunts calibrator friend- my travel fee would be too high to personally back him up! I was just reinforcing that many other calibrators have the same policy - if I get D65 you pay if you still are not happy afterwords we can set back to defaults or get someone else in or try again. Stopped checks are considered fraud - most calibrators will refund you if they cannot make it right. This is a service based industry with people that take pride in their craft being art & science that shows in their results - calibrators are not masterminding a brainwashing fraud as some try to claim. That would be the TV manufacturers that sell uncalibrated TVs and deny warrantys for going into service menus to calibrate said TVs.
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post #133 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:43 PM
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Kevin,

Have you tried the free HCFR calibration software? Just wondering what you thought of it, and which gamma you would recommend.

Gary

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #134 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:49 PM
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I get the same gamma results as ColorFacts in my own calculations - see Poynton on how to calculate gamma if you want to consider gain/offset formula variations. I only use 10-100% in gamma calculations since 0% is fraught with measurement error and elevated anyways on digital displays - rather than try to fit a gamma based on that point - report it as deviating from the ideal gamma curve. gamma calculation is a curve fit problem - and in all curve fit problems knowing what not to fit is part of the fit.

Since I do DLP which lack black detail because of dark dithering - I prefer 2.2. Though in a dedicated room with a neutral density green segment on the colorwheel - 2.5 looks better to some. Gamma was always intended to be a variable dependent on the environmental perception - but we have another raging thread on that topic!
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post #135 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecker View Post


"Trolling is the act of standing on a bridge that people want to cross and demanding a toll."

I think you're a little confused, that's 'tolling'.

Steve W

"standing on" was wrong - lurking is a more apt term - trolls in mythology lurk under bridges. The toll they collect is not money...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolling
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post #136 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 01:22 PM
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Greetings

Well, since there was no bad behavior from any ISF member in this thread ...

For the record ... if one has a problem with an ISF calibrator ... they can file a complaint with the ISF organization ... who will investigate.

If allegations are found to be true... then one does lose their ISF status on the web site. After that ... the individual can still offer all the calibrations that he wants ... just like everyone else in the world is free to do.

Regards

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The Video Calibration Education Hub -
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post #137 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 01:43 PM
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There are two discussions at hand in this thread.
1) an unhappy customer
2) an individual that feels ISF techs need to be re-tested and policed.

Opinion:
1) after "proper" calibration, some may find the picture too dark, too red, too whatever... it takes a while to get used to viewing a properly calibrated set. Sometimes, we are all too quick to judge.

2) This should be another thead. It does nothing but taint the reputation of the calibrator unfairly.

Rhetorical:
If the calibrator just walked out of his/her ISF seminar, successfully passed the exam and this was the 1st, 2nd or 3rd... would that make a difference? How often should ISF "re-test"? Once a week, month or year?

This has really gotton silly IMO.
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post #138 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

Since I do DLP which lack black detail because of dark dithering - I prefer 2.2. Though in a dedicated room with a neutral density green segment on the colorwheel - 2.5 looks better to some. Gamma was always intended to be a variable dependent on the environmental perception - but we have another raging thread on that topic!


Krasmuzik,

I know this is off topic but since there is some discussion in here about gamma I was wondering what gamma you would suggest I shoot for with a completely light controlled environment for a LCD FP?

2.2 or 2.5?

Rob

ÂThe sheriff and his buddies with their samurai swords.....Â
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post #139 of 139 Old 01-30-2007, 02:06 PM
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topic closed

Thank you
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