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post #1 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all

I have a Samsung lcd that was never really right grays where not gray but red, green or blue depending on the shade of gray. This is most noticeable on HDMI although it has it on all inputs.

Well after a lot of reading here and else where I came to the conclusion that my TV needed a good calibration. After realizing that this was not something that I could not do with my DVE I e-mailed an isf calibrator (he posts on this site), he e-mailed me back, we talked on the phone told him about the problems. Gray scale on the DVI had reds and greens and that it was very bright (hurt my eyes).

He came out and found out that the TV was out of wack (reds,greens and blues). He adjusted the colors but could not get them right. He said it was the color decoder or such (committing how DLPs where so much better and why did I not buy one because they are the best ), so he adjust the brightness and contrast to find a "balance". Then we put a BD movie in my PS3 and the blacks where getting crushed so he turned up the brightness (I guess messing up his balance)

He leaves I try to watch a BD movie not good it is now worse them before.

I called Samsung nice lady give me the name and number of a local service tech. I called and told him what happened. He starts to question what the guy did, now he tells me that the guy that came out did a very poor job. He explained that you have to set the base deltaE(?) for the TV under the white balance menu before trying to set it for "coolw, normalw and warmw" in the W/Bmovie menu (all adjustment where made in this menu only). I did ask about the "calibrator" about about the white balance menu and he said that because the TV was digital you could not make adjustments in that menu as it would just mess the TV up.

He also told me to leave the back-light on high (e.saving off) because it might mess up the settings, I told him that would hurt my eyes as soon as he left I tuned it down.

So the service guy will be coming out Monday to look at it, he said they may just replace it as Samsung would not pay to have it re-calibrated. He did say that the TV has a self calibrator and that he would try that first but that if he changed settings in the W/Bmovie menu it most likely would not help as the self calibration only changes the base settings so the W/Bmovie settings would need to be calibrated again.

Any one know who is right? I payed $$$$ to have my TV look worse than before, I am not a rich man. I do not think I should pay someone that does not know what they are doing but if he is right and the set is just messed up than so be it.

I think I will call my bank.

P.S. he also said that the gamma was 1.7x I am thinking this is bad
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post #2 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 03:27 PM
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It sounds like your TV requires a basic gray scale adjustment, which would have removed the color tint out of the gray that you saw. This is the most fundamental thing an ISF calibrator does. If he did not access your service menu and at least attempt a gray scale adjustment, then I am flabbergasted.

One time I was unable to adjust a customer's gray scale because I simply could not find the controls in the service menu. I apologized to the customer and charged him $50 just for getting the user controls correctly set. This was once out of dozens of calibrations. This shouldn't happen, and if it does, it certainly shouldn't cost you the full calibration fee.

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post #3 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 04:08 PM
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Why don't you mention who the calibrator is by name? this might be useful information for the next potential customer.

Best,
jeff
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post #4 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 04:26 PM
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Greetings

No, he has to do the common courtesy thing first to see if he can get the situation rectified with his calibrator guy. If the guy is not responsive ... then another course of action is needed.

Usually at least two sides to any story.

Regards

Michael Chen @ The Laser Video Experience
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The Video Calibration Education Hub - www.TLVEXP.com

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post #5 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 04:32 PM
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Because that's not tactful. As mentioned, the calibrator participates on the forum. If he feels the need to address this complaint publicly, he will do so. If not, I'm sure he will rectify the dissatifaction or compensate accordingly privately.

If you really feel the need to know "who"... then PM the OP. Just keep it discreet because there may be more to the situation than you are aware and it's not fair to jeoparize one's livelyhood publicly without knowing all of the facts.
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post #6 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

It sounds like your TV requires a basic gray scale adjustment, which would have removed the color tint out of the gray that you saw. This is the most fundamental thing an ISF calibrator does. If he did not access your service menu and at least attempt a gray scale adjustment, then I am flabbergasted.

One time I was unable to adjust a customer's gray scale because I simply could not find the controls in the service menu. I apologized to the customer and charged him $50 just for getting the user controls correctly set. This was once out of dozens of calibrations. This shouldn't happen, and if it does, it certainly shouldn't cost you the full calibration fee.

He did get into the service menu but could not get the colors right but what I was told by Sumsung is the you first have to set the gray scale in the white balance menu as this is the base for the TV for all the other modes. After you set that you can set the cools and warms in the w/b movie menu, I was told that if you try to set it just using the w/b movie menu you are just chasing you tail because if the base settings are not right you can't get the sub ones right. Sounds good I do not know if it is right but it does sound good.

Really he just seemed not to know what he was doing with this TV he is most likely good at others but not with this one. He did show me some charts from other sets he had done including one that was the same as mine, but that did not look much better than mine.

I think the white balance was:

sub brightness #
red apex #
Green apex #
Blue apex #
sub contrast #
red gain #
green gain #
blue gain #

None of them where touched

W/B Movie had a lot more settings but no green just red and blue for each color temp, warm 1 and 2, cool 1 and 2, and normal. It also had brightness, contrast, sharpness and I think color but all they did was change the pesets in the user menu. All changes where made in this menu.

Does it sound like he did the best that could be done and the set is bad or is Sumsung right and he did not know what he was doing?
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post #7 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings

No, he has to do the common courtesy thing first to see if he can get the situation rectified with his calibrator guy. If the guy is not responsive ... then another course of action is needed.

Usually at least two sides to any story.

Regards

That's right I do not throw anyone under the bus. Really I am looking for advice in what you would do if you where me.
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post #8 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 06:00 PM
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Quote:


I think the white balance was:

sub brightness #
red apex #
Green apex #
Blue apex #
sub contrast #
red gain #
green gain #
blue gain #

These ARE the gray scale controls. Again, if he didn't touch these, then I'm flabbergasted.

Tom Huffman
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ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #9 of 139 Old 01-05-2007, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tower101 View Post

That's right I do not throw anyone under the bus. Really I am looking for advice in what you would do if you where me.

The question isn't what we would do, but what is he doing? Does he even know you're unhappy?

Also guys, I do understand what the right thing to do is. I've had my own ISF issue and I dealt with it by being silent and fixing it myself (after learning how to do it). As you say there are two sides to every story (I've said that myself), but why is it encouraged to suppress negative reports? If all reports are good, then the potential to fall into a bad situation remains the same. Sort of like how you need to check out an ebay seller's feedback to see how often they make a mistake before you buy from them.

If the guy gets called out for botching a calibration, then I think no one would fault him if he stood up and said he didn't have any experience with that set, but has sense gotten some training and made it right to the customer. All are happy and nobody's under the bus.

OP'er think about what you wrote in your first post. You ended saying you were going to call your bank - to stop payment I can assume? You clearly were very upset. I'll say it again - if you're unhappy you need to make it known. If you decide to fix it yourself, then you've come to a good place to learn.
Best,
jeff
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post #10 of 139 Old 01-06-2007, 01:52 PM
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It's known... this isn't a lynching. Put away the hangin' rope Hoss. Let the OP deal with the issue and allow the calibrator to 'make good' or the OP do what is necessary.
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post #11 of 139 Old 01-06-2007, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

It's known... this isn't a lynching. Put away the hangin' rope Hoss. Let the OP deal with the issue and allow the calibrator to 'make good' or the OP do what is necessary.

I agree. They can't fix what's broke if they don't know it's broke.

If the calibrator doesn't want to work with your reasonable demands to fix it, then maybe further actions are necessary. At least give him a chance.
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post #12 of 139 Old 01-07-2007, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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OK here is a copy of the e-mail I sent:

"It was nice meeting you last Thursday but I must tell you that TV is no better and in some was it is worse, a-lot more red (and or green) on foggy/smoky scenes.



I called Samsung Friday and spoke with 3 different people, all told me this;



1- That my grayscale was off.

2- That the grayscale for the TV is adjusted in the white balance menu as all the TV's enchantments are off and that it sets a base for the TV.

3- The W/B menu is to tweak the color temp settings with the TV's enchantments on, also told me things like movie mode is for movie but that dynamic is for all the others.

4- That if the grayscale for the TV is off trying to set it in the W/B movie menu will never work.

5- That the energy saving mode (the TV's back light) should be on turned on and having set to off (brightest) is why my eyes hurt after extended viewing, and that it does not affect the grayscale.

6- They did say that there is a self calibration built-into the TV and with the right test pattern on the right input (brightness on component, grayscale on HDMI) they could get the settings back to factory but that it would not fix and changes made in the W/B movie menu.



They are sending someone out next week to see if there are any problems with the TV (other than the grayscale)



I have also done much reading on the subject over the last few days (something I should have done first) and it mostly confirms what Samsung told me, the exception would be the gamma settings. 2 of the three said it could be adjusted one said he was unsure on that model, most things I read there was some adjustment.



Because of this I do not feel that you fully understand this model TV and therefore where not able to do a proper calibration for it.



At the moment I have stopped the payment on the check that I gave you my goal is NOT to get out of paying for you time BUT I paid for a calibration that I do not feel was done correctly.



If after Samsung comes out and looks at the set I will let you know what they say.



I will be willing to work with you but I do not believe I should pay the full price for a calibration that was not done right.



I did start a Post on the AVS forum http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=781401 please feel free to add your comments. I did NOT out you in any way as I would never do something to hurt anyone's living. "


As I said in the e-mail I do not think I should pay for a full calibration but I don't want to stiff the guy he did spend a few hrs at the house.

Also at this point I do not want him to come out and "try again". I will wait and see what Samsung has to say but either way I am done with "provisional calibrators" for a while. I have a Spyder TV PRO on the way and I might get CalMan and get gray but I will try Spyder alone first and go from there.
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post #13 of 139 Old 01-07-2007, 10:37 AM
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Don't expect to get much useful information from Samsung on the matter. You would likley learn a lot more by getting it strightened out with the calibrator that you used, like everyone here has said.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #14 of 139 Old 01-07-2007, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Don't expect to get much useful information from Samsung on the matter. You would likley learn a lot more by getting it strightened out with the calibrator that you used, like everyone here has said.

So you think the info Samsung has given me is wrong? So far they have been very nice, helpful and informative, I have read some bad stories but so far, nice to me.

If the info they are giving me is BS then I will owe the calibrator an apology, but if they are right then I do not owe him another opportunity to learn on my TV (I can do that myself).
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post #15 of 139 Old 01-08-2007, 05:14 AM
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Hi Tower101

When I received your e-mail today I start answering it point by point.
I was surprised when - in the end - you stated that you stopped the payment on the check and that you started complaining post on AVS forum.
Before I left you said that picture is much better no more greenish background and more details in the dark. Didn't you?
Shouldn't you call me first to tell me that you changed your opinion?
Returned check cost me $30.00 Sending check back to you is 39c only!

Someone from Samsung is coming today to your home. I like to be in your home at the same time, but it's to late. I am living for appointment shortly.

I will answer to your post this night. I have to go now.

Zygmunt
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post #16 of 139 Old 01-08-2007, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zygmunt View Post

Hi Tower101

When I received your e-mail today I start answering it point by point.
I was surprised when - in the end - you stated that you stopped the payment on the check and that you started complaining post on AVS forum.
Before I left you said that picture is much better no more greenish background and more details in the dark. Didn't you?
Shouldn't you call me first to tell me that you changed your opinion?
Returned check cost me $30.00 Sending check back to you is 39c only!

Someone from Samsung is coming today to your home. I like to be in your home at the same time, but it's to late. I am living for appointment shortly.

I will answer to your post this night. I have to go now.

Hi Zygmunt

I will be more than happy to cover any $ this has cost you plus $ for your time.

I do not want to stiff anyone, just want to get the sevice a paid for.

I will let you know what happends with Samsung.

Bill

P.S. My intent was not to complain (or to hurt you in any way) but to get advice on what you told me and what Samsung told me as they are not the same.
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post #17 of 139 Old 01-08-2007, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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A pix of my TV I have seen this movie once or twice LOL I have never seen reds and green in the fog before.
LL
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post #18 of 139 Old 01-08-2007, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Samsung just left my house.

TV is much better see pic

From what he said and did I would say what they told me to be correct.

The one thing that there was a discrepancy was the gamma settings (some said it had it others said it did not) He showed me that there are gamma "corrections" under options in the SM about 4 or 5 with one being off (no gamma correction?)
LL
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post #19 of 139 Old 01-08-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tower101 View Post


He came out and found out that the TV was out of wack (reds,greens and blues). He adjusted the colors but could not get them right. He said it was the color decoder or such (committing how DLPs where so much better and why did I not buy one because they are the best ), so he adjust the brightness and contrast to find a "balance". Then we put a BD movie in my PS3 and the blacks where getting crushed so he turned up the brightness (I guess messing up his balance)

Lets make some corrections to above statement;
This TV is Samsung flat panel LN-S4692D.
Grayscale was off. Delta E between 46 and 65 (9600÷12320 °K) before calibration. After calibration under seven (10÷100IRE) for component and under 8.5 (10÷100IRE) for HDMI.
I didn't adjust colors because there is no color decoder. I adjust color saturation only. For component and HDMI hue/tint exist in service menu and doesn't work in user menu.
I did all adjustments in service menu.
Yes, I said that DLP are better (I didn't say they are the best) because I can adjust colors in color decoder and even adjust color space.
In inexpensive digital displays there is optimum between brightness and contrast where grayscale is smooth. Couple of clicks changes grayscale couple of points.
When we played your BD I saw that this player use PC levels (0÷255) not video levels (16÷235) in HDMI output so I switched my generator to PC level signals and recalibrated this input. (I did not turned up brightness. It makes no sense. I recalibrated it.)

I know that - for some reason - you don't believe me, but you should - I guess - believe some professionals.
Mike Wood, who is the TV Test Manager at Samsung QA Lab America, located in California sent some notes to ISF Forum.
For flat panel TVs, the best color temperature settings are found in the service menu called "W-B Movie".

Didn't I do exactly that?

Quote:


He leaves I try to watch a BD movie not good it is now worse them before.

Before I left you told me that picture is much better. We watched movie for while looking at details in the dark scenes. (Court room, eagle, horses etc.)


Quote:


I did ask about the "calibrator" about about the white balance menu and he said that because the TV was digital you could not make adjustments in that menu as it would just mess the TV up.

I didn't say that. It makes no sense. Bill, you take my words from different sentences or explanation and compile some sentences I never said.
Quote:


He also told me to leave the back-light on high (e.saving off) because it might mess up the settings, I told him that would hurt my eyes as soon as he left I tuned it down.

Again, I didn't say that. It is nonsense.

Zygmunt
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post #20 of 139 Old 01-08-2007, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tower101 View Post

Hi Zygmunt



P.S. My intent was not to complain (or to hurt you in any way) but to get advice on what you told me and what Samsung told me as they are not the same.


Im sorry but personally Im not buying into this, you knew better thant once you posted and stated that the calibrator posted here - you stepped all over him...with disregards...

Its just my opinion..

Rich L

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post #21 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Zygmunt

I do not want do get into "he said she said" maybe I misunderstood you for that I am sorry.

Pitchers do not lie and while "over all" the picture may be better the fact is there where reds and greens in the shades of gray look at the pixs I posted.

I am done many lessons learned.

Zygmunt please e-mail me so we can work out a fair payment.
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post #22 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

Im sorry but personally Im not buying into this, you knew better thant once you posted and stated that the calibrator posted here - you stepped all over him...with disregards...

Its just my opinion..

I did not "out him" in any way I got a few PM's asking who it was and still did not say. I sent him the link so he post his own comment's and give his side if he wished. Had he not said it was him I would not have either. I was looking for advice granted my first post was a little heated I was upset but I still did not say who it was I left it up to him to say.

So in my opinion you are WRONG
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post #23 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 08:58 AM
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I know they are just photos on the internet, but if fog is supposed to look white and gray, then the first photo looks more accurate to me. The second photos looks like the fog has a red cast to the whole image.

I'm sorry, but if those photos are showing like to like, I'd have to say that Zygmunt's calibration looks more correct and has better shadow detail. (second photo the blacks look crushed)

I know they are just photos and I'm just giving my laymen/non expert impressions so take it as you wish.

Rob

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post #24 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highside View Post

I know they are just photos on the internet, but if fog is supposed to look white and gray, then the first photo looks more accurate to me. The second photos looks like the fog has a red cast to the whole image.

I'm sorry, but if those photos are showing like to like, I'd have to say that Zygmunt's calibration looks more correct and has better shadow detail. (second photo the blacks look crushed)

I know they are just photos and I'm just giving my laymen/non expert impressions so take it as you wish.

Rob

You are right on how the photos came out but on the set it did not look as red in the back ground.

Look at the lower right in the first photo you will see a green layer then a red layer in the 2nd you do not.
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post #25 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tower101 View Post

I did not "out him" in any way I got a few PM's asking who it was and still did not say. I sent him the link so he post his own comment's and give his side if he wished. Had he not said it was him I would not have either. I was looking for advice granted my first post was a little heated I was upset but I still did not say who it was I left it up to him to say.

So in my opinion you are WRONG

trust me..most people will think otherwise sinceyou never initially dealt with him..and you can tell by the response of the calibrator he felt the same way...

Lets not sweat..hope things work out for you..I just wouldve handled it differently..

Rich L

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post #26 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

trust me..most people will think otherwise sinceyou never initially dealt with him..and you can tell by the response of the calibrator he felt the same way...

Lets not sweat..hope things work out for you..I just wouldve handled it differently..

You may be right, I don't always handle disappointment well. I need to work on that (New Year's resolution maybe).

To be clear I told him more than once that I was going to call Samsung while he was at the house even asked what he thought they would say.

I only posted after I had talked with them and I was upset. Looking back I should have called him next.

I was looking for info on who to believe as what he told and they told me where are different.
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post #27 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 12:55 PM
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My brother runs a pizza place. Motto is we try to MAKE it right - but sometimes we have to make it RIGHT. But you have come back to the store with a pizza box that is not empty if you want a new one - we don't give away free pizza....

ISF calibrators are not certified by manufacturers - ISF are left to their own methods to find out service menu oddities - even it that means learning on the job what the controls do - they know basic like how color decoders and panel grayscale controls work - the challenge is in finding out implementation details of specific firmwares. With the frequency of model updates and silent firmware updates - one would have to be an ISFer that focuses on specific models that they sell or calibrate for sellers - in order to keep up on all the firmware details.

Service centers are authorized by manufacturers and have the service codes - but they rarely know anything about ISF calibration - but stick to the service procedure which the manufacturer has provided them. If the service manual says set this based on probing that - that is what they do - regardless of ISF standards. Often they will even say setting a set to ISF standards violates your warranty!

Calibrators use test patterns that they know what they should look like and how they should measure. Unless you were the DVD mastering engineer - you don't know what that picture should look like. The goal of calibration is to get the pics to match what was mastered - not to what you think it should look like.

If your manufacturer service rep proferred up information about calibration controls - you should have invited your calibrator back. Maybe he missed those controls or maybe your service tech is setting it back to factory. I think must calibrators would love to meet a service tech as a potential contact for "borrowing" the service manuals.

But stopping the check just means you wanted a free pizza - at our pizza place that gets you on the bad check list - after all you could have brought it back if you wanted a new one.
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post #28 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tower101 View Post

You may be right, I don't always handle disappointment well. I need to work on that (New Year's resolution maybe).

To be clear I told him more than once that I was going to call Samsung while he was at the house even asked what he thought they would say.

I only posted after I had talked with them and I was upset. Looking back I should have called him next.

I was looking for info on who to believe as what he told and they told me where are different.

Tower why are you apologizing and second guessing yourself man? Bottom line..was it your money? YES! When the calibrator left were you satisfied? NO!

Easy as pie to me bro. You did your part which was to pay he obviously didn't when Samsung did. What's the problem? He didn't fix it and someone else did so you shouldn't have to pay. End of story!

Lucky it wasn't me he serviced, he'd have no money, 2 dogs biting a chunk out of his butt and my foot on his butt as well. I'm a nice guy, too nice some times but when I pay for something I better get it or someone will pay for the screw up. I don't understand why people should apologize for standing up for themselves The customer is ALWAYS right, specially a fair one that wants what he's paying for. When he doesn't get it he should raise hell so next time the service tech or whomever thinks twice about doing a lousy job.

Look, there's a sucker born every minute and it's up to no one else but YOU to make sure you're not one of them. If it was me I would have asked you at least twice if you were 100% satisfied with my work and asked what else I could do. If a serv tech or any business is not prepared to do that then..lesson well learned and take your medicine when you don't get paid. Unlike others here I want to thank you for bringing this up. I was concidering asking around here for tips on where to find a good calibrator. You at least saved someone a big headache so don't lose sleep over it. Think about this..you weren't satisfied until Samsung came out and fixed it so you did the right thing. Now, are you happy with your set and how it looks now? If yes, then go enjoy it.
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post #29 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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krasmuzik;

While I do agree that calibrating is hard as there are many different makes and model TVs, my TV is NOT a learning device. Nor is it my job to facilitate a learning center. Why should he need to "borrow" service manual. I will have one by the end of the week a hole $28 right from Samsung no "special" contact needed.

Interesting pizza analogy try this one:

You have a car now there are way more car makes and models than TVs. So you bring you car in to "certified" mechanic because it does not "feel" right. He tells you sure I know that model car I can fix it right up for you. You say great but things don't go so well you tell the guy you are going to call the dealer.
You leave, car drives good but still does not feel right different but still not right.
You call, the dealer tells you the guy that worked on your car did not have a good grasp on the ins and outs of your car and to bring it in.
You do, they SHOW you what the guy told you is not right, they fix the car. Do you owe the first guy anything?

I have said that I will work with him on the $$ both here and in my e-mails with him.

Would you still have paid the guy that worked on your car first?


Mr.Malmsteen;

I hope I never do you wrong
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post #30 of 139 Old 01-09-2007, 05:53 PM
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I think we can close this one out...live, learn and move on...

Rich L

Go Chicago Bears

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