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post #1 of 87 Old 01-07-2007, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I am going to get a projector (1080p) and hopefully a flatscreen in the next 6 months and am reading up on calibrations.

Now most seem to recommend the Spyder2 with the free software. I already have the AVIA and DVE DVDs but most people seem to refer to the Spyder2 as a "toy".

I would really like to get my pj to D65 and get natural colors, proper gamma, brightness, contrast settings etc.

But I also saw on another forum, that the Spyder2 often produces inaccurate gammut, wrong greys and you can measure but you do not get absolute values.


So, is this just a toy to get your pj better than it is out of the box or is this actually a proper calibration tool which will allow anyone to get the best results from his/her pj without needing to have the Spyder2 recalibrated or needing another calibration tool to make sure it is accurate?
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post #2 of 87 Old 01-07-2007, 06:34 AM
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Spyder TV Pro $500 is what I recommend. This thing works on any display. Its worth it for me.
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post #3 of 87 Old 01-07-2007, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Spyder TV Pro $500 is what I recommend. This thing works on any display. Its worth it for me.

But isn't that the same sensor just with different software and a nice case?

Or is that sensor actually different from the Spyder2 Express?
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post #4 of 87 Old 01-07-2007, 09:44 AM
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It's the same sensor. If you're set on the s2, get the cheapest meter you can. Costco had them around christmas for $65.

Then you need software. HCFR is available free in this forum. There's the older Rader spreadsheet (search and you'll find it also in this forum) but some think it has errors and it's not really maintained. Then there's CalMAN (google and you'll find the site/forums supporting it).

Best,
jeff
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post #5 of 87 Old 01-07-2007, 10:37 AM
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I picked up the low cost Spyder2 express, just setup the LCD monitor , looks night and day better to me. Going to try the free software on this forum to improve the projector next.

I'm sure you can buy better eq always, but this low cost device just improved my monitor much better then I ever did using other gamma tools.


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post #6 of 87 Old 01-07-2007, 05:41 PM
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The DisplayLT is the meter we currently recommend to people using our software if their budget stretches that far. They seem to be more consistent than the S2 and more available than the DTP-94.

Bill

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
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post #7 of 87 Old 01-21-2007, 09:57 PM
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Bear5K,

Looks like the Display LT is about 2 x the price of the cheapest Spdyer2Express (which as is helpfully pointed out is the same sensor in all the Spyders).

How much better is Display LT - worth the extra? Just want to confirm how much better in your judgement.


Thanks
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post #8 of 87 Old 01-21-2007, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBPilot View Post

Bear5K,

Looks like the Display LT is about 2 x the price of the cheapest Spdyer2Express (which as is helpfully pointed out is the same sensor in all the Spyders).

How much better is Display LT - worth the extra? Just want to confirm how much better in your judgement.


Thanks

See this and subsequent posts.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post9495885

Tom Huffman
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post #9 of 87 Old 01-21-2007, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBPilot View Post

Looks like the Display LT is about 2 x the price of the cheapest Spdyer2Express (which as is helpfully pointed out is the same sensor in all the Spyders).

How much better is Display LT - worth the extra? Just want to confirm how much better in your judgement.

Tom showed you the active discussion on the LT/D2. In our in-house testing, we are seeing more variability in the Spyder than in the D2/LT. However, we do not yet have a significant sample size (only about a dozen between us) to make any definitive statements. We do know that, at worst, the D2/LT are calibrated in small batches, and may be calibrated individually at the factory. This, to me, is worth the extra $35 - $50. However, if this amount is material to your budget, then stick with the Spyder2. If you have an LCD or CRT, it should give you very usable results.

Bill

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post #10 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 10:14 AM
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TomHuffman or Bear5k,

Which meter would you recommend for plasma and LCDs? Display2/LT or the i1 Pro?
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post #11 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

The DisplayLT is the meter we currently recommend to people using our software if their budget stretches that far. They seem to be more consistent than the S2 and more available than the DTP-94.

Bill

how do you connect the DisplayLT or the Spyder2 to a tripod?

Thanks,
Jason
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post #12 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

TomHuffman or Bear5k,

Which meter would you recommend for plasma and LCDs? Display2/LT or the i1 Pro?

Theoretically, the i1Pro will yield the most accurate results, but on the displays I've tested them with the Display2 reads almost exactly the same. Furthermore, it is MUCH cheaper and significantly easier to use.

Tom Huffman
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post #13 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

TomHuffman or Bear5k,

Which meter would you recommend for plasma and LCDs? Display2/LT or the i1 Pro?

I'm neither of those guys, but I bought a DisplayLT to use with the ColorHCFR S/W on my NEC plasma.

Objectively, I get pretty consistent results from reading to reading. Every now and then I will get one data point that looks out of whack with the others, in which case I run it again. I suspect that with proper averaging this would go away. By out of whack I mean a deltaE of about 1.5 -> 2 for a given point.

Subjectively, post calibration I have a really, really, good looking picture. I'm amazed at how much better it is now than before.

The plasma is calibrated to D65K with a deltaE in the range of 1 -> ~3 from 20% to 100%.
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post #14 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Theoretically, the i1Pro will yield the most accurate results, but on the displays I've tested them with the Display2 reads almost exactly the same. Furthermore, it is MUCH cheaper and significantly easier to use.

Thanks for the incite. I've heard that the i1Pro PITA due to it requiring multiple dark sample checks. Would recommend any other meter besides the Display2/LT for plasmas?
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post #15 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

I'm neither of those guys, but I bought a DisplayLT to use with the ColorHCFR S/W on my NEC plasma.

Objectively, I get pretty consistent results from reading to reading. Every now and then I will get one data point that looks out of whack with the others, in which case I run it again. I suspect that with proper averaging this would go away. By out of whack I mean a deltaE of about 1.5 -> 2 for a given point.

Subjectively, post calibration I have a really, really, good looking picture. I'm amazed at how much better it is now than before.

The plasma is calibrated to D65K with a deltaE in the range of 1 -> ~3 from 20% to 100%.

Thanks for the info.
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post #16 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonDono View Post

how do you connect the DisplayLT or the Spyder2 to a tripod?

Thanks,
Jason

I just hang it by the wire. Pretty stable if kids don't run accross the room
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post #17 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonDono View Post

how do you connect the DisplayLT or the Spyder2 to a tripod?

Thanks,
Jason

Here is a FAQ Bill at CalMAN put together on making a cheap tripod mount.

http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=342

Derek

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post #18 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Thanks for the incite. I've heard that the i1Pro PITA due to it requiring multiple dark sample checks. Would recommend any other meter besides the Display2/LT for plasmas?

Nothing that's even remotely affordable.

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post #19 of 87 Old 01-22-2007, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekjsmith View Post

Here is a FAQ Bill at CalMAN put together on making a cheap tripod mount.

http://www.datapopuli.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=342

That's great. thanks!
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post #20 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear5k View Post

The DisplayLT is the meter we currently recommend to people using our software if their budget stretches that far. They seem to be more consistent than the S2 and more available than the DTP-94.

Bill

Does that advice stand for those with non-standard colorwheels on their DLP FP's? My Benq 8720 projector has an 8-segment CW.. something that made me abort my Spyder2-purchase due to someone saying it'd have problem with anything but RGB-wheels.

Thanks.

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post #21 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel.N View Post

Does that advice stand for those with non-standard colorwheels on their DLP FP's? My Benq 8720 projector has an 8-segment CW.. something that made me abort my Spyder2-purchase due to someone saying it'd have problem with anything but RGB-wheels.

Thanks.

I have 8 segment color wheel (2 neutral density, dark green, segments) in my DLP FP, and the D2/LT has held up in my testing so far. Unless the 8720 includes traditional "secondary" colors in its color wheel, you should be fine.

Bill

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post #22 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel.N View Post

Does that advice stand for those with non-standard colorwheels on their DLP FP's? My Benq 8720 projector has an 8-segment CW.. something that made me abort my Spyder2-purchase due to someone saying it'd have problem with anything but RGB-wheels.

Thanks.

I will have access to an Optoma H79 projector in a couple of days, which has a color wheel of the type you describe. I'll test the Display2 against the EyeOne Pro and post the results here.

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post #23 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 01:50 PM
 
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Will the Display 2 have any trouble with the DLP Mits 6-color wheel, e.g. WD-65831 model?

ONe more thing, how do these sensors attach to RPTVs, suction cups?
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post #24 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 02:08 PM
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What is the difference between D2 and LT?
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post #25 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSfan99 View Post

Will the Display 2 have any trouble with the DLP Mits 6-color wheel, e.g. WD-65831 model?

In looking for an ISF calibratior I called one person that currently only calibrates the equipment he sells. He gave me the name of the person he recommends, talked about the guy's experience, and why it is that he recommends the person. I asked him a question and then he finally asked what TV I have. When I told him SXRD, he withdrew the recommendation and said that in his opinion the TV requires a spectroradiometer. Based on that interaction, I'm rather skeptical about the value of a colorimeter on rear projection.
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post #26 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

In looking for an ISF calibratior I called one person that currently only calibrates the equipment he sells. He gave me the name of the person he recommends, talked about the guy's experience, and why it is that he recommends the person. I asked him a question and then he finally asked what TV I have. When I told him SXRD, he withdrew the recommendation and said that in his opinion the TV requires a spectroradiometer. Based on that interaction, I'm rather skeptical about the value of a colorimeter on rear projection.

This doesn't answer any of my questions. Sorry, but I'd rather get info from someone with experience using the Display 2 on DLP's (or even on the model that I have) instead of the "I know a person that knows another that doesn't give details but recommends something else instead" type response.
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post #27 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 03:21 PM
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D2/LT questions are better posted here (several of these have been answered):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770737

Bill

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post #28 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSfan99 View Post

This doesn't answer any of my questions.

Maybe this will - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...14#post9200214 He also seems to recommend a spectroradiometer, which cost a few thousand. I'm not so sure that colorimeters are really intended for non-CRT rear projection TVs, but I'm interested in anything credible that says otherwise. http://www.videoessentials.com/TVSPro_LCDDLP.php seems to give a clue at why colorimeters might not be ideal for the task.
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post #29 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSfan99 View Post

Will the Display 2 have any trouble with the DLP Mits 6-color wheel, e.g. WD-65831 model?

ONe more thing, how do these sensors attach to RPTVs, suction cups?

Don't know about this specific display, but I used another 6-segment color wheel for my tests, and it worked very well.

You can either attach using the built-in suction cups or place on a tripod and lean it forward until it nearly touches the screen.

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post #30 of 87 Old 01-23-2007, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Maybe this will - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...14#post9200214 He also seems to recommend a spectroradiometer, which cost a few thousand. I'm not so sure that colorimeters are really intended for non-CRT rear projection TVs, but I'm interested in anything credible that says otherwise.

I've read claims like this many times, but they are rarely accompanied with any hard data. That's the reason I tested the Display2 against the EyeOne Pro spectroradiometer, Milori trichomat, and Spyder2. The Display2's performance was nearly identical to the EyeOne Pro.

I'm going to keep trying on different displays, but as of now I have not been able to substantiate the claim that colorimeters--at least this one--are inherently inaccurate for anything other than CRTs.

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