Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 126 - AVS Forum
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post #3751 of 3872 Old 05-23-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andris View Post

have you checked the luminance graph in the Color_calibrated_with_ICC_lacie_22.chc file?

I guess that I see what you see: CCT is 500K higher in ColorHCFR and gamma is approx. .2 lower in ColorHCFR.

However, I'm also a bit concerned that what we are looking at here (the data from ColorHCFR) are not comparable to the data from the LaCie software if the ICC profile is not activated for playback of AVCHD when measuring with ColorHCFR.

This could explain the lower CCT in the LaCie calibration report *if* the windowed applications (e.g. the LaCie test patterns) do not use the same ICC profile as full screen applications (like most DVD/BD players).

Also we cannot be sure that the grayscale behaviour is identical even if the same or no ICC profile is used for windowed *and* full screen modes (but hopefully it is).

Apparently it is not possible to use the LaCie software with other test patterns sources (I have browsed through the manual as well) and even if we can reset the ICC profile we know very little about the test patterns generated by the LaCie software.

I am quite certain that the patterns generated by the LaCie software will not produce the same result as e.g. the APL patterns for AVCHD as the panel load (and therefore the light output) will likely vary with luminance diffferences in the patterns produced by the software.

To find out more we really need some well-defined test patterns to be used with your PC using the same ICC profiles and screen mode as the LaCie software.

Maybe you could playback AVCHD in windowed mode (rather than full screen mode) of the PC with the LaCie software when using ColorHCFR to measure while attempting to load the panel similarly to the LaCie software (e.g. by scaling the player window)?

You might need to take into account that black levels are probably different between the two sources (windowed mode will probably use PC levels (0-255) while AVCHD uses video levels (16-235) which the windowed player may or may not be able to map to PC levels).

This way you *might* get more insight into the differences between LaCie and ColorHCFR. At least the whitebalance/CCT data should be comparable. If the whitebalances differ between the two software packages we might need to investigate more.
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post #3752 of 3872 Old 05-23-2011, 04:04 PM
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thanks for the reply! I'll put my comments inside the quote!

Quote:
Originally Posted by losmobilos View Post

I guess that I see what you see: CCT is 500K higher in ColorHCFR and gamma is approx. .2 lower in ColorHCFR.

yes, that is what I meant!

However, I'm also a bit concerned that what we are looking at here (the data from ColorHCFR) are not comparable to the data from the LaCie software if the ICC profile is not activated for playback of AVCHD when measuring with ColorHCFR.

This could explain the lower CCT in the LaCie calibration report *if* the windowed applications (e.g. the LaCie test patterns) do not use the same ICC profile as full screen applications (like most DVD/BD players).

I doublecheked it: ICC profile is in use in both windowed and full screen playback!

Also we cannot be sure that the grayscale behaviour is identical even if the same or no ICC profile is used for windowed *and* full screen modes (but hopefully it is).

Apparently it is not possible to use the LaCie software with other test patterns sources (I have browsed through the manual as well) and even if we can reset the ICC profile we know very little about the test patterns generated by the LaCie software.

I am quite certain that the patterns generated by the LaCie software will not produce the same result as e.g. the APL patterns for AVCHD as the panel load (and therefore the light output) will likely vary with luminance diffferences in the patterns produced by the software.

To find out more we really need some well-defined test patterns to be used with your PC using the same ICC profiles and screen mode as the LaCie software.

Maybe you could playback AVCHD in windowed mode (rather than full screen mode) of the PC with the LaCie software when using ColorHCFR to measure while attempting to load the panel similarly to the LaCie software (e.g. by scaling the player window)?

You might need to take into account that black levels are probably different between the two sources (windowed mode will probably use PC levels (0-255) while AVCHD uses video levels (16-235) which the windowed player may or may not be able to map to PC levels).

I set up the VGA driver (Ati catalyst) to produce video levels (16-235) (it took a while until I figured this out) so both programs use the same leves

This way you *might* get more insight into the differences between LaCie and ColorHCFR. At least the whitebalance/CCT data should be comparable. If the whitebalances differ between the two software packages we might need to investigate more.

the picture set by Lacie looks colder then the one calibrated with HCFR, but this can be expected from the 500K difference

I start to think that this software simply cannot handle plasma screens, it is only working with LCD monitors.

ps: I recalibrated the TV with lower contrast slider setting, which resulted in better gamma and RGB graphs
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post #3753 of 3872 Old 05-24-2011, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andris View Post

I start to think that this software simply cannot handle plasma screens, it is only working with LCD monitors.

I don't think that it should be a problem to make it work on a plasma TV (WRT the whitebalance at least) - unless there are some differences in the drivers used by ColorHCFR and the LaCie software. Do they use the same driver?
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post #3754 of 3872 Old 05-24-2011, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losmobilos View Post

I don't think that it should be a problem to make it work on a plasma TV (WRT the whitebalance at least) - unless there are some differences in the drivers used by ColorHCFR and the LaCie software. Do they use the same driver?

Lacie has its own driver. ColorHCFR uses eyeone's driver.
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post #3755 of 3872 Old 05-24-2011, 06:57 AM
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Hmmm - the best thing to do now is to try and compare the measurements with measurements from a reference meter and software. Do you by any chance have access to e.g. a ColorMunki, i1pro, or better (including the required software, ofcourse)?
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post #3756 of 3872 Old 05-24-2011, 07:01 AM
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You hit the nail on the head. HCFR takes into account the IR output from Plasma displays. When using HCFR to measure Plasma, if I use LCD measures, on HCFR, there is about a 500k difference. However, it still wouldn't explain your Gamma results?
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post #3757 of 3872 Old 05-24-2011, 07:31 AM
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Could you try to use the LaCie software on a LCD TV (not computer monitor)?
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post #3758 of 3872 Old 05-24-2011, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losmobilos View Post

Hmmm - the best thing to do now is to try and compare the measurements with measurements from a reference meter and software. Do you by any chance have access to e.g. a ColorMunki, i1pro, or better (including the required software, ofcourse)?

unfortunately, I don't

Quote:
Originally Posted by delphiplasma View Post

You hit the nail on the head. HCFR takes into account the IR output from Plasma displays. When using HCFR to measure Plasma, if I use LCD measures, on HCFR, there is about a 500k difference. However, it still wouldn't explain your Gamma results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by losmobilos View Post

Could you try to use the LaCie software on a LCD TV (not computer monitor)?

I just calibrated my work monitor with lacie blue-eye pro (dell u2410, it is said to be a good one with IPS panel), then I measured it with HCFR: gamma is perfect, nailed to 2.2 all the way, luminance is perfect, the only difference is that 500K in color temperature: it can be seen in the RGB levels: blue is constantly above red and green.
but now as you say, unfortunately, I did not change HCFR back to LCD mode, and this might cause color temp problems. I'll measure again, and post the results!

update:
we got it! the color temp difference comes from plasma/lcd setting of HCFR. I measured my home monitor, once with eyeone calibrated to plasma, once with eyeone calibrated to LCD. the plasma measurement shows 500k higher color temperature. so my conclusion is that LCD monitor calibrating software cannot be used to calibrate plasma screens.

or do you think that setting 500K lower target in Lacie will solve the problem? or color calibration will be inaccurate anyway with this kind of software!

update2:
I also noticed strange thing about Lacie when it measures the plasma, on dark tones (ie 0% black, or 10% grey, or darker reds, etc), it starts to "hourglass" and it looks a bit like it is freezing, but then it comes back. conclusion is again, that it cannot be used for plasma. but why? :/ colors are colors, no matter where they come from, or not?
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post #3759 of 3872 Old 05-26-2011, 02:35 PM
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WRT deviations in gamma measurement between LaCie and ColorHCFR:

Try setting ColorHCFR's gamma calculation preference to "Camera Gamma (Standard Offset)" and compare with LaCie's gamma measurements/calculations. Try also to select "Camera Gamma, Manual Offset = .073" and see if this matches LaCie's numbers better.

Also, if you can do some measurements on a LCD TV (not monitor) set op for TV-levels (16-235) and would publish gamma measurement from LaCie and ColorHCFR that would be useful.

Lastly, if you use AVCHD to show WtW (whiter-that-white) and BtB test patterns in the same screen mode as LaCie uses for displaying their own test patterns (on the same PC) can you see levels above 235 and below 17 (you might need to turn up BRIGHTNESS to see BtB)?

(I have two lines of thoughts attempting to explain the gamma deviation phenomenon that I'm working on at the moment - but I need more measurements for input so any help as described above would be much appreciated.)
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post #3760 of 3872 Old 05-27-2011, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losmobilos View Post

WRT deviations in gamma measurement between LaCie and ColorHCFR:

Try setting ColorHCFR's gamma calculation preference to "Camera Gamma (Standard Offset)" and compare with LaCie's gamma measurements/calculations. Try also to select "Camera Gamma, Manual Offset = .073" and see if this matches LaCie's numbers better.

Also, if you can do some measurements on a LCD TV (not monitor) set op for TV-levels (16-235) and would publish gamma measurement from LaCie and ColorHCFR that would be useful.

Lastly, if you use AVCHD to show WtW (whiter-that-white) and BtB test patterns in the same screen mode as LaCie uses for displaying their own test patterns (on the same PC) can you see levels above 235 and below 17 (you might need to turn up BRIGHTNESS to see BtB)?

(I have two lines of thoughts attempting to explain the gamma deviation phenomenon that I'm working on at the moment - but I need more measurements for input so any help as described above would be much appreciated.)

I calibrated 2 monitors with Lacie, and Eyeone Match 3, and the measurement with HCFR shows perfect results afterwards. Plasma tricks both of these software. I decided that they cannot handle plasma displays. I could achieve good results using the TVs WB controls and HCFR, so it is not a problem in the end. my computer monitors were really bad without ICC profies, because they dont have detailed WB controls.
thanks for your help, I learned a lot! unfortunately, I dont have access to another device, and I have to give back the i1 today (I just borrowed it)

I attached the results of my dell u2410 with ICC profiles in use.
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post #3761 of 3872 Old 05-28-2011, 05:20 AM
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Can you tell us which gamma setting have you used in ColorHCFR for the readings above, please?
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post #3762 of 3872 Old 05-28-2011, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losmobilos View Post

Can you tell us which gamma setting have you used in ColorHCFR for the readings above, please?

display gamma with black level compensation
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post #3763 of 3872 Old 05-28-2011, 07:21 AM
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OK - I have spent a lot of time thinking about and modeling the issue - and one of the possible explanations were that LaCie was using the sRGB gamma transfer funtion to estimate gamma. If you had set ColorHCFR to use "Camera Gamma" it would probably produce similar results to the LaCie software.

If you never used "Camera Gamma" in ColorHCFR this is not the explanation. An explanation could maybe be that your PC was driving the G20 plasma TV with PC-levels (0 - 255) making white be whiter-than-white and black would be blacker-than-black as the Lacie software was still outputting 0 for black and 255 for white.

This will increase gamma estimation/calculation by approx. 10% - but only if the measurement software expects PC-levels (which LaCie must do so). The phenomenon will not show on PC monitors that expect PC-levels. This was the reason I asked for a measurement on a LCD TV (not monitor) using video-levels.
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post #3764 of 3872 Old 05-28-2011, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andris View Post

1) AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - AVCHD version
windowed greyscale patterns

Which player did you use to playback the AVCHD disc?
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post #3765 of 3872 Old 05-29-2011, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losmobilos View Post
Which player did you use to playback the AVCHD disc?
Splash pro. I also use mediaplayer classic home cinema.
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post #3766 of 3872 Old 07-16-2011, 07:48 AM
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wonder if there is any life left in this thread, if not let make some. Today I have re-calibrated my tv and am kinda happy, and then not really. my problems id my colors (green ad red) no matter what I tries it dont go right I can get the xy positions a bit better but then I completely screw up the Delta Luma. any advices or do I just settle with what I got? any help will be greatly appreciated

Carsten

 

16-07-2011.zip 41.37890625k . file
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post #3767 of 3872 Old 07-29-2011, 11:34 PM
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I am planning on calibrating my LG pk550 using HCFR. Can anybody explain me the CMS in this plasma ? this display has color and tint control for all the six colors. While I can use the tint control to get the color co-ordinates right, I am wondering what does color control do ? does it control the luminance or saturation? If it controls the Y values, how can I derive the Y values for secondaries ?

I appreciate your time and attention.

FYI, I am using the following link to educate myself about CMS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536
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post #3768 of 3872 Old 07-29-2011, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photocrazy View Post

I am planning on calibrating my LG pk550 using HCFR. Can anybody explain me the CMS in this plasma ? this display has color and tint control for all the six colors. While I can use the tint control to get the color co-ordinates right, I am wondering what does color control do ? does it control the luminance or saturation? If it controls the Y values, how can I derive the Y values for secondaries ?

I appreciate your time and attention.

FYI, I am using the following link to educate myself about CMS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=852536

Usually color = luminance.
The link you have had the Y values for primaries and secondaries... what do you mean to derive it? The table is based on percentage of White. So, for example, Yellow = 92.78% (Rec 709) of White Luminance. So, you do need to get your White Y first.
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post #3769 of 3872 Old 07-30-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

Usually color = luminance.
The link you have had the Y values for primaries and secondaries... what do you mean to derive it? The table is based on percentage of White. So, for example, Yellow = 92.78% (Rec 709) of White Luminance. So, you do need to get your White Y first.

Thank you very much. But when I add the percentages of CYM, it doesn't add up to 100%. But if I add the percentages of RGB, it adds up to 100%. Am I missing anything here?
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post #3770 of 3872 Old 07-30-2011, 11:19 AM
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That's because CYM is additive of RGB, so they don't add up to 1.
C=B+G, M=R+B, Y=G+R. And then they should add up.
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post #3771 of 3872 Old 07-30-2011, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fight4yu View Post

That's because CYM is additive of RGB, so they don't add up to 1.
C=B+G, M=R+B, Y=G+R. And then they should add up.

Thanks fight. that explains the numbers
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post #3772 of 3872 Old 07-31-2011, 04:29 AM
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Ok I have taken a before calibration and after calibration files. The tv is a philips 42pfl8404 hdtv. it is being fed a 1080 p test signals from blueray edition of dve hd basics disc through an onkyo (video throughput) txnr807.

The controls on this set for adjustment are:
contrast
brightness
colour (not sure what this does)
sharpness
tint- set to custom mode for calibration. pre calibration set to normal
whitepoint red, green & blue (Rgbhighend settings?)
redblack offset
greenblack offset (not sure what these are) rgblowend?)

I have attached the calibration results taken with idisplay 2 and colorhfcr.

the rgbs seem to have improved but the gamma has an odd curve but I am a novice and would welcome suggestions now for what to adjust to get the curves correct or as close as possible.

regards in advance

 

philips 42pfl8404 .zip 8.521484375k . file
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post #3773 of 3872 Old 07-31-2011, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by photocrazy View Post

I am planning on calibrating my LG pk550 using HCFR. Can anybody explain me the CMS in this plasma ? this display has color and tint control for all the six colors. While I can use the tint control to get the color co-ordinates right, I am wondering what does color control do ? [/url]

On the 550, it's a combination of saturation and luminance. You just have to make a compromise.

Beware when you hit the saturation limits of the tv, your tint/hue might be wildly off but it won't show - it's worth setting colour low, getting tint angle right, then increasing colour.
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post #3774 of 3872 Old 07-31-2011, 05:29 AM
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Greetings,

This is a method I discovered by accidentally adjusting contrast and brightness and seeing that these parameters have an effect on rgb levels during continuous measurements. Instead of focussing primarily on rgb levels at each window ire interval, I concentrated on what would be the best contrast and brightness level for my hdtv that would allow rgb levels close to 100 % from 30 ire to 80 ire. The reason that I call it the sweep method is simply sweeping or raising/lowering the contrast or brightness levels to produce consistent rgb levels across the grayscale.

I just calibrated my Samsung PN50b450 by using hcfr software and xrite eyeone lite and gamma response is pretty level. I have been DIY calibrating for over two years. Recently, I initially started using the HD DVE disc with the red/green/blue levels even at 100% at 80 ire. I then noticed the other rgb levels at 50, 60, and 70 were not level but were greatly affected when adjusting the contrast and brightness levels. I kept adjusting the rgb levels at from 50 to 80 ire by using the contrast/brightness controls, and later separately rgb levels from 30 to 40 ire, until all rgb levels of the greyscale from 30 to 80 consistently came within 2 percent of 100% levels. This made my gamma a straight flat line and a terrific picture. My highest delta E is 2.5.

I think that all hdtv's have a sweet spot which can be found by adjusting (slowly but surely) the contrast and brightness settings to where rgb levels are consistent between 30 and 80 ire. For example, if your 70 ire has a red level at 95%, adjusting the constrast or brightness may raise this level while not affecting the 80 ire rgb levels. After I completed my adjustments, my 100 ire had a measurement of 40.8 ftL and the 10 ire was exactly .65% of the 100 ire, which may be perfect.

I call this the "sweep" method and it primarily involved adjusting the contrast and brightness levels and a lot of trial and error. See the images below for the gamma and rgb graphs.

The cell light was originally set at 10 - as recommended for this display, but readjusted to 9 to level out a bump in the gamma graph. I also attempted to lower the cell to 8 but the gamma graph just went bonkers.

The following are my settings for a dark room setting. The resulting gamma was 2.36 (the hcfr gamma setting preference @ 2.4 for dark room environment), with static contrast at 1173:

movie mode
cell 9
contrast 87
brightness 53
sharpness 29
gamma 0
color space auto
offset: red 29, green 25, blue 35
gain: red 25, green 25, blue 45
mode warm2
16:9
hdmi black level low
all options off

Good Luck,

Vincentfam

Attachment 218813

Attachment 218814
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post #3775 of 3872 Old 08-04-2011, 12:45 PM
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Hi all. I am quite new to calibration. Yesterday I did an 'ISF Day' calibration using ControlCal and HDFR on my Panasonic VT25. I have attached the before and after files.

Can someone please tell me why my gamma is so low and why the red/green/blue gamma drop off so much at the higher end of the greyscale? Note: I used the gamma setting of 2.2 setting during the calibration.
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post #3776 of 3872 Old 08-04-2011, 01:15 PM
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This time with the attachment.

Hi all. I am quite new to calibration. Yesterday I did an 'ISF Day' calibration using ControlCal and HDFR on my Panasonic VT25. I have attached the before and after files.

Can someone please tell me why my gamma is so low and why the red/green/blue gamma drop off so much at the higher end of the greyscale? Note: I used the gamma setting of 2.2 setting during the calibration.

 

Before and After HCFR Files.zip 6.5341796875k . file
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post #3777 of 3872 Old 08-06-2011, 12:28 AM
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ok here is the result of my samsung fx2490 i am learning on this device before i moved to my main tv set.

i am using an i1d2 with the dve blueray

is this a good start?
can someone explain when to use rgb gain and when to use rgb offset

when i start calibrating and getting the grayscales right what leve do i start off on the rgb controls is it that starting position that determines d65?

for example start rgb gain R at 50% then adjust blue etc. once the scaling between them is correct raise or lowe them in unison to get the colour temp right?

 

samsung fx2490 after.zip 4.42578125k . file
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post #3778 of 3872 Old 08-07-2011, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb21uk View Post

ok here is the result of my samsung fx2490 i am learning on this device before i moved to my main tv set.

i am using an i1d2 with the dve blueray

is this a good start?

Your grey scale and gamma are dead on. Great job!

Quote:


can someone explain when to use rgb gain and when to use rgb offset

From the "GREYSCALE & COLOUR CALIBRATION FOR DUMMIES"...

Offset: The control used to adjust the amount of individual Red, Green, or Blue colour in the darker end of the black to white scale. Think of it as an individual brightness control for each colour. We adjust this while displaying a dark pattern, typically 20 or 30%.

Gain: The control used to adjust the amount of individual Red, Green, or Blue colour in the lighter end of the black to white scale. Think of it as an individual contrast control for each colour. We adjust this while displaying a light pattern, typically 90%

Quote:


when i start calibrating and getting the grayscales right what leve do i start off on the rgb controls is it that starting position that determines d65?

for example start rgb gain R at 50% then adjust blue etc. once the scaling between them is correct raise or lowe them in unison to get the colour temp right?

I'm not sure I understand your question. You only set D65 (greyscale) at 90% and 20%, then hope for the best that the other points fall into place at D65. Once you finish calibrating contrast, brightness, color, tint, and greyscale, you are done. There is no additional procedure for setting color temp.


If you haven't already, read the "Dummies Guide". It explains the process in great detail.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
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post #3779 of 3872 Old 08-07-2011, 11:44 PM
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ok this is my second attempt. Here I have managed to get most of the curves following (i think) the reference values apart from the blue at 10%.

I have at my disposal:

rgb gain B, R and green

rgb Offset B, R and green

colour - 50

tint -middle

contrast - 65
brightness - 46

gamma- 0

mode - movie
all other dynamic controls off

reply on how to flatten out that rgb at 10% would be appreciated.

@Steve Kinkead I had to recalibrate having increased the backlight to get the ftl to a reasonable range as on my first attempt at calibration the graphs were spot on (thank you for saying so) but the picture was too dark with no backlight.

When I use offset to set the 10% levels it all goes out at 20%

at what percent do the rgb gain controls come into effect? or vice versa the offset?

 

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post #3780 of 3872 Old 08-08-2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb21uk View Post

ok this is my second attempt. Here I have managed to get most of the curves following (i think) the reference values apart from the blue at 10%.

When I use offset to set the 10% levels it all goes out at 20%

There's no perfect solution, everything is a trade-off. I think your eye is not very sensitive to grey scale imperfection at very low intensities. So, I prefer to calibrate the offsets at 20% to insure good greys at 30% and greater. Sure, the greys below 20% will likely be crap, but your eyes may not even notice.

Overall, your calibration looks great. I would be jumping for joy if I could get my protector to match your results.
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