Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 08:15 AM
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So I think I'm beginning to understand the CIE Diagram and how it might be related to luminance and color decoding. Let me know if this is correct:

Imagine the CIE Diagram. Draw three lines from the 6500 point through each of the red, green and blue vertices. If my measured results are on these lines (either inside or outside the triangle) then they can be corrected by changing RGB bias and gain. However if the results are outside these lines then it requires decoder changes.

Did I get that right?
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post #362 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 08:22 AM
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Sorry but no, that's not correct

Color gamut (the CIE chart), grey scale (color temperature/white balance), and color decoding are all separate things. You can have perfect gamut, but incorrect color temperature. You can have incorrect color temperatue, but perfect color decoding.

When it comes to the image on the screen, they are all inter-related, but they are also separate and distinct.
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post #363 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG View Post

Sorry but no, that's not correct

Color gamut (the CIE chart), grey scale (color temperature/white balance), and color decoding are all separate things. You can have perfect gamut, but incorrect color temperature. You can have incorrect color temperatue, but perfect color decoding.

When it comes to the image on the screen, they are all inter-related, but they are also separate and distinct.

Dang. And I was so excited.

Can you define gamut? (And it's ok to tell me to Google the word - I figured it didn't hurt to ask.)
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post #364 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG View Post

Sorry but no, that's not correct

Color gamut (the CIE chart), grey scale (color temperature/white balance), and color decoding are all separate things. You can have perfect gamut, but incorrect color temperature. You can have incorrect color temperatue, but perfect color decoding.

When it comes to the image on the screen, they are all inter-related, but they are also separate and distinct.


So am I correct in believing (Ive preached this before) that using Color and Tint to adjust your CIE points is incorrect. Rarely, if I am correct, you will have the ability to move those points. I know a couple of digital displays that have this ability but its far from popular to see it.

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post #365 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyFunBoater View Post

Can you define gamut?

Well, the dictionary definition is "the complete range or scope of something", so I guess the simplest description here is that gamut is a range of colors. Specifically applied to video, it's the entire range of colors reproducible by a given video system (ie rec 601, 709). On the CIE chart, the "gamut" is all the colors within the triangle that's anchored by the defined shade of the primary colors (red, green and blue).
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post #366 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

So am I correct in believing (Ive preached this before) that using Color and Tint to adjust your CIE points is incorrect. Rarely, if I am correct, you will have the ability to move those points. I know a couple of digital displays that have this ability but its far from popular to see it.

Color ant Tint should never have an effect on the primaries, but as you say, on rare occasions, it does. But it shouldn't. Got it?!

Even if it does, you should not use them this way as the benefit of accurate color balance is greater than the benefit of accurate primaries. What's the point of having a perfectly accurate green point if that color is not in balance with red and blue?
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post #367 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyG View Post

Unless the display has adjustment for color primaries, that is unfortunately correct.


Ah - BUT!! Even if the display does offer this adjustment, you may not be able to get the primaries on the reference point due to display limitations.

As an aside: A lot of helpful info is presented by experts here, but often there are assumptions about what can and can't be adjusted. For example, I've read several times (on other threads) that adjusting primaries is a waste of time, only to discover that the advice was given under the assumption that primaries could NOT be adjusted. Same goes with other color points and adjustments. This is not true in a growing number of cases. It can be (and was for me) very confusing to anyone moving up the learning curve.

-Dave
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post #368 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbower View Post

Ah - BUT!! Even if the display does offer this adjustment, you may not be able to get the primaries on the reference point due to display limitations.

As an aside: A lot of helpful info is presented by experts here, but often there are assumptions about what can and can't be adjusted. For example, I've read several times (on other threads) that adjusting primaries is a waste of time, only to discover that the advice was given under the assumption that primaries could NOT be adjusted. Same goes with other color points and adjustments. This is not true in a growing number of cases. It can be (and was for me) very confusing to anyone moving up the learning curve.

-Dave

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post #369 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 01:59 PM
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Can't tell you what it means, but I can tell you how it works on my set. I have color and tint, and (if I choose to use them) individual "color management" settings for RGB and CMY which are phase and gain.

With "color management" turned off, I use color and tint to even out the color and tint test pattern of getgray with the blue filter from DVE. I adjust that so that all the blues are basically equal, and it's quite close (at least from a visual standpoint).

Then I turn on "color management" and use HCFR and a display one to adjust the color gamut. I have to decrease the gain on blue and green significantly, and tweak the phase on all the primary and secondary colors. Once I've done that I can get quite close to the reference points on the CIE chart. But I'm also no longer even close to passing the color/tint test with the blue filter. When I used the "color management" blue gain control to bring blue down to the reference point, I threw the whole color/tint setting out of whack.

I can then use the blue filter test to rebalance color and tint, but if I do that I once again have to use "color management" to decrease the gain of blue and green, etc. That didn't seem like the right thing to do, so I stuck with just one iteration of balancing color/tint with the blue filter and "color management" turned off, and then "color management" turned on to line up the CIE chart. Don't ask me if that's the right thing to do. Colors look natural, but I don't know if a slightly modified procedure would be better, or why what happens to me happens (or if it's supposed to happen).
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post #370 of 3872 Old 03-14-2007, 07:21 PM
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Hi all,

Could use some help on my setup. I'm running a Optoma HD6800(H72) and using a spyder2 meter with my HTPC, all video/audio going through my Denon 3805 AVR. I actually purchased Calman as well. Anyhow, I set my brightness/contrast to 16-235(a bit higher than 235 actually) using a reference iso I found here on AVS, I used colorcop to confirm that the decoder was displaying the bars at the right level. Initially my video drivers were doing weird stuff with my video playback. I chose HDTV (rec. 709), gamma with black compensation and left gamma at 2.22. Set the sensor to extrend readings in dark and calibration mode to LCD. Anyhow, I found that my inital settings were very red deficient and bumping red up any higher would cause red runout, so I dropped my green/blue contrast to compensate and eventually came out with an ok greyscale tracking, colour temp, etc. Problem is the image is horrible. White's are pinkish, looking at bars to set contrast, all the bars look pink, etc. And it's pretty dark too, On/Off contrast is 697 or so, I know dropping primaries to compensate for red runout will darken my image but it's really dark.

PS. I went through this as well with Calman. I suspected my meter so I received a RMA from Colorvision but I'm getting similar readings and results are pinkish whites. I'll try and post a picture of my results if I can find my camera.

 

stoked_ColorHCFR.zip 2.2529296875k . file
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post #371 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlo View Post

DUDE - you just push me back down the ladder

Heh - I've been up and down the ladder so many times I'm getting dizzy.

I know for my case (PRO1140), I can adjust everything but there's no way to get green on the reference. Since green is off, the gamut triangle also has cyan off the reference (but at least it lines up with green). And, while in principal CM adjustments should not affect tint, I know that in real life it does (depending on how much tweaking is needed). CM and tint do interact to some degree (on my display anyway).

I've got it all looking pretty good right now even with the green limitations. I just don't know if it could be better.

-Dave
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post #372 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by stoked View Post

Hi all,

Could use some help on my setup. I'm running a Optoma HD6800(H72) and using a spyder2 meter with my HTPC, all video/audio going through my Denon 3805 AVR. I actually purchased Calman as well. Anyhow, I set my brightness/contrast to 16-235(a bit higher than 235 actually) using a reference iso I found here on AVS, I used colorcop to confirm that the decoder was displaying the bars at the right level. Initially my video drivers were doing weird stuff with my video playback. I chose HDTV (rec. 709), gamma with black compensation and left gamma at 2.22. Set the sensor to extrend readings in dark and calibration mode to LCD. Anyhow, I found that my inital settings were very red deficient and bumping red up any higher would cause red runout, so I dropped my green/blue contrast to compensate and eventually came out with an ok greyscale tracking, colour temp, etc. Problem is the image is horrible. White's are pinkish, looking at bars to set contrast, all the bars look pink, etc. And it's pretty dark too, On/Off contrast is 697 or so, I know dropping primaries to compensate for red runout will darken my image but it's really dark.

PS. I went through this as well with Calman. I suspected my meter so I received a RMA from Colorvision but I'm getting similar readings and results are pinkish whites. I'll try and post a picture of my results if I can find my camera.

Sounds like you have been working on this awhile.

You may have tried this but did you turn the color to 0 before doing you gray-scale and brightness. I had a similar problem when when running getgray from a DVD to my STB to a vision HDP to my TV. Turned out the STB was "adding" red to the test patterns, the result was the opposite of yours.

You are too dark turn up your brightness a click or two. Looks like .445ish is your "black" your 10IRE should be 3ish (like in your baseline) you most likely have some room down low to move black up. I would not let 0IRE go above .450 and see where that puts 10IRE. You may have to make some compromises.
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post #373 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by tower101 View Post

Sounds like you have been working on this awhile.

You may have tried this but did you turn the color to 0 before doing you gray-scale and brightness. I had a similar problem when when running getgray from a DVD to my STB to a vision HDP to my TV. Turned out the STB was "adding" red to the test patterns, the result was the opposite of yours.

You are too dark turn up your brightness a click or two. Looks like .445ish is your "black" your 10IRE should be 3ish (like in your baseline) you most likely have some room down low to move black up. I would not let 0IRE go above .450 and see where that puts 10IRE. You may have to make some compromises.

I have color/saturation set to 0. Between my baseline and my "good" run I have to move brightness from -16 to -10 in order to get black at level 16. However, maxing out my contrast to 50 and I still see all the >240 bars and the background is close to light red. I can handle low light levels but the redness can't be right. I need to get a photo of what I see...
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post #374 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 11:46 AM
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I noticed your model has something called ImageAI mode to increase contrast. Could that throw off a gray scale calibration? Or maybe the meter is incorrect, how do projector owners typically use the S2, pointing at the projector or reading off the screen?

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post #375 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I noticed your model has something called ImageAI mode to increase contrast. Could that throw off a gray scale calibration? Or maybe the meter is incorrect, how do projector owners typically use the S2, pointing at the projector or reading off the screen?

On a tripod about middle of the distance between pj and screen pointed at pj. I have ImageAI set to off. Brilliant Color at 1, and color temp at 1.
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post #376 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by stoked View Post

On a tripod about middle of the distance between pj and screen pointed at pj. I have ImageAI set to off. Brilliant Color at 1, and color temp at 1.

The s2 has a diffuser on it that will see other light in the room, including reflections from the screen itself back into the room. I would try measuring off the screen if there is enough signal.

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post #377 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 12:02 PM
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How far did you bring green down? It looks like to me and I could be wrong but you are crushing red in both your runs, what happens when you increase red gain, you said you get red run-out to you have a file showing that?
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post #378 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 12:36 PM
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The info box in his files says he brought B/G gains down from -3/-3 to -20/-22

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post #379 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked View Post

On a tripod about middle of the distance between pj and screen pointed at pj. I have ImageAI set to off. Brilliant Color at 1, and color temp at 1.

I know on my mits3000U..BC should be off..have you tried that

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post #380 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The s2 has a diffuser on it that will see other light in the room, including reflections from the screen itself back into the room. I would try measuring off the screen if there is enough signal.

But the diffuser is on the same side of the sensor pickup. The S2 facing the screen has nothing but the body of the sensor. I guess I could try it, but I'd imagine it should cause that much of a difference.

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How far did you bring green down? It looks like to me and I could be wrong but you are crushing red in both your runs, what happens when you increase red gain, you said you get red run-out to you have a file showing that?

If I bring red above 6 at >90IRE there's a sharp drop. I'll have to check my home computer to see if I have readings of runout.

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I know on my mits3000U..BC should be off..have you tried that

I'll give that a shot, have always left it at 1.
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post #381 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stoked View Post

But the diffuser is on the same side of the sensor pickup. The S2 facing the screen has nothing but the body of the sensor. I guess I could try it, but I'd imagine it should cause that much of a difference.



If I bring red above 6 at >90IRE there's a sharp drop. I'll have to check my home computer to see if I have readings of runout.



I'll give that a shot, have always left it at 1.

It really looks like your sensor set-up, you shouldn't have to cut back on the G/B gain so much. You said you are using LCD mode, make sure the filter/baffle is installed. I would point the sensor towards the screen as close as you can get it and at an angle so you don't view the sensor shadow. Set the read time at 500 and uncheck extended read time on dark.

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post #382 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

It really looks like your sensor set-up, you shouldn't have to cut back on the G/B gain so much. You said you are using LCD mode, make sure the filter/baffle is installed. I would point the sensor towards the screen as close as you can get it and at an angle so you don't view the sensor shadow. Set the read time at 500 and uncheck extended read time on dark.

How do you get it so that the sensor is in the middle of the screen and not picking up it's own shadow?
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post #383 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 07:10 PM
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I haven't worked with projectors so maybe someone else that has used the S2 like this can chime in, but you would have to angle the sensor somewhat to avoid viewing the shadow.

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post #384 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 07:16 PM
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How do you get it so that the sensor is in the middle of the screen and not picking up it's own shadow?

Angle it upwards at about 45 degrees. See our manual for some pictures (in the appendix). I'll scurry back to my corner now, but since he's one of our users, I feel obliged to help where I can.

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post #385 of 3872 Old 03-15-2007, 07:25 PM
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Angle it upwards at about 45 degrees. See our manual for some pictures (in the appendix). I'll scurry back to my corner now, but since he's one of our users, I feel obliged to help where I can.

Thanks Bill, it's worth a shot I guess.
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post #386 of 3872 Old 03-16-2007, 08:12 AM
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For the life of me, I can't find this info anywhere, so I'll see if someone already knows here:

Deciding what colorspace spec I should be setting my HCFR to....source is an xbox 360 using VGA...upconverting to 1360x768.

Panel is a Panny TH-50PH9UK....VGA input.

Hmm...? Thanks.
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post #387 of 3872 Old 03-16-2007, 07:05 PM
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Well here's my first grayscale calibration.

GetGray -> Xbox 360 -> TH-50PH9UK -> Spyder2 -> HCFR

This result is repeatable.......watcha think?

 

9uk.zip 3.8359375k . file
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post #388 of 3872 Old 03-16-2007, 07:32 PM
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Looks pretty close to done, how does the image look? How close is the sensor to the panel? you should get an upper IRE reading around 100-110 and contrast ratio closer to 1500.

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post #389 of 3872 Old 03-16-2007, 08:42 PM
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The image is fantastic. TONS better than the 'stock' normal or warm temps.

Hmm...I'm not sure how to pull off a 1500 contrast ratio....does just testing it at 110IRE (not sure how to do that) give it enough 'upper sample' to up the ratio that much? My picture is already 20.....blacks at -8 (that's exactly where 16=black). If forcing some more picture out of it pulls my contrast higher, I could give it a try, but it's already blindingly bright

I never could move the gamma much with the brightess/picture. I put the 9UK's gamma setting to 2.5 and got what I got in the file....no matter what I set the brightness/picture to.

S2 is about 1-2 inches away (center)....about a 45 degree angle.....i'm actually just hanging the thing from the top, but kinking it to the side so it angles to the right.....it's supported by a single leg against the screen.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.
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post #390 of 3872 Old 03-16-2007, 08:50 PM
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I get a 0 IRE reading of about 0.06 cd/m^2 and 100 cd/m^2 at 100 IRE for a contrast ration of 1600 at gamma=2.1 The sensor distance to the panel is 2 inches in this case. Depending on your viewing environment, daytime brightness etc. you could drop it down to a gamma of 2.2 (standard) and still get great contrast.


Edit: Another possibilty for your low readings, have you removed the filter from the sensor?

I would not angle the detector, it should placed directly facing the display.

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