Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 3872 Old 04-17-2007, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

zoyd,

Forgive me but I'm not sure what this really means/does?

I've tried off/std/adv but don't know what to look for ??

bob

PureCinema mode on the Pio's is designed for playback of film that starts out at 24 frames per second (fps). When telecined to video (DVD) it's converted to 30 fps. The Pio can inverse telecine at a special frame rate of 36 fps (called 3:3 reverse pull-down). This is supposed to smooth out an effect called judder that is sometimes seen in DVD playback especially during pans. At least that's the theory.
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post #632 of 3872 Old 04-17-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Ok, check this one out! Unfortunately I forgot to reset my manual RGB gains and cuts before adjusting the primaries and secondaries. I did readjust gray at 30 and 80 afterwards but the results were not good. It looked good at 30 and 80 but check the RGB histogram And the resulting picture was Gosh awful. But how about that CIE chart


bob

ps: it was a hoot watching the CIE points move around the triangle in real time !

Bob - you sure your CIE is any better? I'm not too sure. Right click on your gamut and choose the CIE u'v' mode. Use this mode to have a better representation of the effects your distance from references have. Green looks good, but you pulled your red way too far toward yellow. Then zero everything else in and finish your gray scale. Rinse and repeat until no changes need to be made.
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post #633 of 3872 Old 04-17-2007, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

Bob - you sure your CIE is any better? I'm not too sure. Right click on your gamut and choose the CIE u'v' mode. Use this mode to have a better representation of the effects your distance from references have. Green looks good, but you pulled your red way too far toward yellow. Then zero everything else in and finish your gray scale. Rinse and repeat until no changes need to be made.


Are we looking at the same chart? The red is overlapping the reference isn't it(.005)? Isn't that the goal to have the measurement as close to the reference as possible? The cyan and magenta look the farthest out to me. Just when I thought I was getting it


bob
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post #634 of 3872 Old 04-17-2007, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

PureCinema mode on the Pio's is designed for playback of film that starts out at 24 frames per second (fps). When telecined to video (DVD) it's converted to 30 fps. The Pio can inverse telecine at a special frame rate of 36 fps (called 3:3 reverse pull-down). This is supposed to smooth out an effect called judder that is sometimes seen in DVD playback especially during pans. At least that's the theory.

Could you explain judder and maybe suggest a scene from a popular movie that would test this?

thx

bob
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post #635 of 3872 Old 04-17-2007, 10:56 PM
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Well, here is my first ever calibration using the Eyeone on my 9UK (HDMI)...any suggestions to get anything closer/more consistent or is this what a 9UK should look like...I only used the user settings (no SM)...

 

9UKHDMIafter.zip 4.2490234375k . file
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post #636 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Are we looking at the same chart? The red is overlapping the reference isn't it(.005)? Isn't that the goal to have the measurement as close to the reference as possible? The cyan and magenta look the farthest out to me. Just when I thought I was getting it


bob

Not sure how you did it but your primaries are aligned to Rec601 and your secondaries to Rec709. lol
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post #637 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Not sure how you did it but your primaries are aligned to Rec601 and your secondaries to Rec709. lol


No wonder the picture looked like crap LOL!

I'd like to know how i could have done it to avoid that mistake again?

thx

bob
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post #638 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Not sure how you did it but your primaries are aligned to Rec601 and your secondaries to Rec709. lol

hey you're right!
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post #639 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

No wonder the picture looked like crap LOL!

I'd like to know how i could have done it to avoid that mistake again?

thx

bob

You must have either changed references midstream or maybe pulled up a saved file that had a different reference.
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post #640 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

No wonder the picture looked like crap LOL!

I'd like to know how i could have done it to avoid that mistake again?

thx

bob

That's a really good question. I'd just say make sure it's on rec709 (and check it every now and then). Also, use the CIE u'v' when adjusting.

Don't feel bad, I'll admit I've seen some odd things like this that I'm positive I hadn't changed. Especially with the CIE....I've gone back to a previous one and observed changed primaries.....very strange sometimes.

Remember to keep your white point unchanged too. I was testing some stuff out and failed to realize that changing your white point technically changes your secondaries reference points! lesson learned.
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post #641 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

Well, here is my first ever calibration using the Eyeone on my 9UK (HDMI)...any suggestions to get anything closer/more consistent or is this what a 9UK should look like...I only used the user settings (no SM)...

Grayscale - Overall looks good. The rest would just be nitpicking. Your 20IRE reading is Y=3.6, so you could trust your measured colors there. With that in mind, your Red Cut could probably go down a click or two. At this point though, going down to 5% intervals would be the way to fine tune.

CIE - looks in-line with other 9UK users using a D2. My green is different....either because of my S2, or because of my panel. I don't have evidence either way. Blue measures a little differently I guess....but probably not enough to say there's something wrong.

Gamma - is this a brightly-lit room? Your 100IRE is high....could knock down picture until 100IRE has Y=100-110. Unless there's a lot of ambient light, etc. That will probably mess with your grayscale, so plan on retweaking. Your luminance curve looks like the typical 9UK set to a preset gamma of 2.5, correct?
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post #642 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Not sure how you did it but your primaries are aligned to Rec601 and your secondaries to Rec709. lol

How do you see this? Even on a new file, reference SDTV, a blank CIE diagram says "REC601 red reference" and the secondaries say "Magenta secondary reference", etc

This is on 2 different computers


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post #643 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 08:41 AM
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Bob - just try chaning your reference (preferences - references - color space standard) back and forth from rec601 to rec709 while in CIE diagram mode. You'll see what he means.
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post #644 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 08:47 AM
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What colin said. Also, HCFR does not store your reference in the save file, it uses whatever your current preference is when you open a file (new or old).
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post #645 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

What colin said. Also, HCFR does not store your reference in the save file, it uses whatever your current preference is when you open a file (new or old).


I'm still confused. When I change reference, only the primaries indicate it when I mouse over them. The secondaries only say "secondary reference" no REC 601 or 709 ??? I don't see how Zoyd could tell that my secondaries were at 709 on the same chart that the primaries were at 605.



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post #646 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:03 AM
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He didn't. He flipped back and forth between rec601, rec709. When you're set on 601, your measured primaries are very close the the 601 standard (the little plus signs on the tips of the darker-lined triangle). But the secondaries are off. When you switch to rec709, your primary red goes way off (from rec709 standard), but your secondaries are on (rec 709 standard)

Bottom line - keep your preferences set to Rec709, and adjust your primaries/secondaries until they're close to the little plus signs (references).
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post #647 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:09 AM
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Another thing to observe is the fact that when viewing your measured gamut in either reference.....your secondaries do not fall on your gamut triangle! This represents a decoder error. Typically, you would not want this.
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post #648 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

He didn't. He flipped back and forth between rec601, rec709. When you're set on 601, your measured primaries are very close the the 601 standard (the little plus signs on the tips of the darker-lined triangle). But the secondaries are off. When you switch to rec709, your primary red goes way off (from rec709 standard), but your secondaries are on (rec 709 standard)

Bottom line - keep your preferences set to Rec709, and adjust your primaries/secondaries until they're close to the little plus signs (references).


Well, on both the Panny and the Pio, I have only used reference SDTV REC 601. I was told that this was best if watching SD and HD material. So, you only use HDTV 709? So comparing our Panny charts are apples and oranges?


bob
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post #649 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Well, on both the Panny and the Pio, I have only used reference SDTV REC 601. I was told that this was best if watching SD and HD material. So, you only use HDTV 709? So comparing our Panny charts are apples and oranges?


bob

If you are sending your set 720 or 1080 use Rec709, if you are sending it 480 use Rec601.
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post #650 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

Grayscale - Overall looks good. The rest would just be nitpicking. Your 20IRE reading is Y=3.6, so you could trust your measured colors there. With that in mind, your Red Cut could probably go down a click or two. At this point though, going down to 5% intervals would be the way to fine tune.

CIE - looks in-line with other 9UK users using a D2. My green is different....either because of my S2, or because of my panel. I don't have evidence either way. Blue measures a little differently I guess....but probably not enough to say there's something wrong.

Gamma - is this a brightly-lit room? Your 100IRE is high....could knock down picture until 100IRE has Y=100-110. Unless there's a lot of ambient light, etc. That will probably mess with your grayscale, so plan on retweaking. Your luminance curve looks like the typical 9UK set to a preset gamma of 2.5, correct?

Thanks for the feedback...I will lower the picture a bit...I had it set to 15 "just because" since picture cannot be set easily on the 9UK...it was actually done in a very dark room so it sounds like it should definitely be lower then...I'll try 5% intervals as well...I'll be back...
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post #651 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:30 AM
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Both references contain the same white point (D65), so grayscale balance should result in the same settings.

Which ref is correct is dependent on many things. I just assumed you're using an upscaling DVD player feeding the panel HDMI or component. It would be a 'hunch', that your player would be correctly twisting the colorspace to rec709 before passing it to the panel. And it would be another 'hunch' that the panel would know that this is a rec709 colorspace and to treat it as such. Some DVD players and panels have options to explicitly control these, neither of mine do....so I'm stuck with 'hunching'.

edit - and to use zoyd's suggestions above end up being the good way to go from the sound of it.
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post #652 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

If you are sending your set 720 or 1080 use Rec709, if you are sending it 480 use Rec601.

Is there a way to change references while looking at the CIE or do you need to do a new run? I've been using Rec601 as well and had used a Yamaha upconverting player set at 720p...
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post #653 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

Is there a way to change references while looking at the CIE or do you need to do a new run? I've been using Rec601 as well...

yes, you can change it for your current measurements by going to preferences->references.
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post #654 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

If you are sending your set 720 or 1080 use Rec709, if you are sending it 480 use Rec601.

Are you sure that this kind of blanket statement is correct? DVDs are Rec. 601 if they were mastered correctly, and it just isn't clear to me that some/most/all upscaling DVD players convert color spaces when they generate 720 or 1080 output. Certainly, documentation is lacking :-)

And what do you do if you have a single global setting on the television and one input that's rec. 601 and another that's 709?
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post #655 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

Both references contain the same white point (D65), so grayscale balance should result in the same settings.

Which ref is correct is dependent on many things. I just assumed you're using an upscaling DVD player feeding the panel HDMI or component. It would be a 'hunch', that your player would be correctly twisting the colorspace to rec709 before passing it to the panel. And it would be another 'hunch' that the panel would know that this is a rec709 colorspace and to treat it as such. Some DVD players and panels have options to explicitly control these, neither of mine do....so I'm stuck with 'hunching'.

edit - and to use zoyd's suggestions above end up being the good way to go from the sound of it.

Unless you specifically know that either your dvd player, cable STB, or panel does not follow industry standards you should assume that all HD signals are Rec709 and all SD signals are Rec601. Some panels allow you to switch colorspaces but you would have to know that your dvd player is screwing it up in the first place to know that you needed to switch. There are ways of testing this using color patterns and there has been endless discussion on this topic elsewhere in the forum. The last discussion we had about this topic can be found here.
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post #656 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Unless you specifically know that either your dvd player, cable STB, or panel does not follow industry standards you should assume that all HD signals are Rec709 and all SD signals are Rec601. Some panels allow you to switch colorspaces but you would have to know that your dvd player is screwing it up in the first place to know that you needed to switch. There are ways of testing this using color patterns and there has been endless discussion on this topic elsewhere in the forum.

I agree. From the sound of it, there are several that don't follow it though.

Heck, I use my VGA input...for all I know the 360 passes sRGB colorspace....fortunately, it appears to be the same as rec709 from what I can tell.
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post #657 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

I agree. From the sound of it, there are several that don't follow it though.

Heck, I use my VGA input...for all I know the 360 passes sRGB colorspace....fortunately, it appears to be the same as rec709 from what I can tell.

That's a bit confusing. When using the VGA out on your 360 you are passing it already decoded RGB values. Whether it decoded them properly based on HD vs. SD resolution I don't know. sRGB is another colorspace not to be confused with decoded RGB. sRGB primaries = Rec709 primaries, I think the gamma encode formulations have very minor differences.
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post #658 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

That's a bit confusing. When using the VGA out on your 360 you are passing it already decoded RGB values. Whether it decoded them properly based on HD vs. SD resolution I don't know. sRGB is another colorspace not to be confused with decoded RGB. sRGB primaries = Rec709 primaries, I think the gamma encode formulations have very minor differences.

Ok, that's good to know. Whether the pair are acting appropriately, I honestly don't know. I can only say subjectively that it is better (much better) than the component option in this case. M$ did change it dramatically with an update early this year. They tweaked the black level and colorspaces from what I've understood. There were many early issues with PC versus Video levels, etc. Even differences between games and dvds. What a mess. They seem to have sorted them out though from what I can tell.
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post #659 of 3872 Old 04-18-2007, 03:18 PM
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Here is my "daytime" HDMI calibration...I used gamma of 2.2 which interestingly did NOT allow me to get my high red up to 100% (only around 96-97%)...this is what was mentioned earlier by Bob and Colin...so I would then need to go into the SM and make red the weakest color...however, when I used a gamma of 2.5 on my first calibration, I had no trouble getting red to 100%...and the whole process was MUCH easier at this gamma...

EDIT: I have read another thread that states the D2 reads red 6% too high and blue 2% too low...so on my second file, I tried to get things to match up that way...is that ok or even though it's known to be off, should I still try to get everything at 100% and 6500?

 

DayHDMIafter.zip 4.5322265625k . file

 

NightHDMIafter_3final.zip 1.1328125k . file
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post #660 of 3872 Old 04-20-2007, 11:39 PM
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OK, I need help.

I bought an Eyeone D2 because I was having troubles calibrating my Sony LCD tv.

Today I thought I'd run both sensors through a quick read of my Panasonic plasma, just to see if there was any difference in the readings between the two sensors.

I have attached the results.

Im quite annoyed at the difference between the results.

Which one should I trust?

 

Panasonic EyeOneD2.zip 0.9833984375k . file

 

Panasonic Spyder.zip 1.0732421875k . file
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