Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 3872 Old 01-15-2007, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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A lot of 75% vs 100% discussion going on here, so more fuel for the fire. GetGray manual says
"the color patterns are "window" patterns to minimize room reflection interactions and to prevent overdriving video circuits. Full screen windows have high APL (average picture level), which can over-drive some display electronics. Similarly, 100% patterns can be affected from limits in electronics or from limits in bulb based devices. It is recommended 75% amplitude patterns be used for adjustments, but 100% patterns are provided for completeness."

And since it was stated the RGB points should not move on the CIE triangle regardless of which one is used (and this is the case on my CRT RPTV) is it safe to assume that everyone should use 75% window patterns.
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post #92 of 3872 Old 01-15-2007, 05:19 PM
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ok, thanks for all of the help. This was my first tv that I have attempted to calibrate. I'm still trying to learn all of the adjustments.

Is there anything else that you see needs to be adjusted or fixed?
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post #93 of 3872 Old 01-15-2007, 05:32 PM
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I suggest to all w/ little calibration knowledge to read reviews of their particular display to know better how they perform and tips to calibrate. One of my favorite sites is Ultimate AV Mag, very detailed reviews. There's Home Theater Mag, Perfect Vision among others as well. Avoid Cnet at all costs!
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post #94 of 3872 Old 01-15-2007, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

I suggest to all w/ little calibration knowledge to read reviews of their particular display to know better how they perform and tips to calibrate. One of my favorite sites is Ultimate AV Mag, very detailed reviews. There's Home Theater Mag, Perfect Vision among others as well. Avoid Cnet at all costs!

I will take a look at these sites. I would like an opinion on my settings to make sure I am on the right track.

Thank you.
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post #95 of 3872 Old 01-15-2007, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

carillo-

I like your 4th run better since it has a lower black level. Both gamma curves are fairly close, if you can tweak its gamma a bit more at the top end without affecting picture quality, it'll be better. If oversaturated colors bother you then you could bring color control down a bit. It may affect grayscale slightly.

I'll suggest wathing some material and judge for yourself of course. Can't just focus on a graphic . At the end of the day, it might be impossible to have a perfect gamma. You may have to sacrifice a bit of something.

Thanks for the reply HDolic... I'm using the 4th run currently and it seems to be okay. I might try reducing COLOR to 40 instead of 50 and see how it effects everything else.

I'm not sure how I can tweak the gamma at the top-end as I don't see a control to do so in the USER MENU. What should I look for.

Thanks again!!
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post #96 of 3872 Old 01-15-2007, 08:40 PM
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If what you have now is your best gamma setting, then try bringing down contrast. If you do that, don't forget to readjust brightness since they interact.
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post #97 of 3872 Old 01-16-2007, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic
0.040\t/0.545\t/3.498\t/13.097\t/24.309\t/39.058\t/57.923\t/78.830\t/104.966\t/133.991\t/167.860 = Movie mode

0.050\t/0.469\t/3.966\t/15.701\t/29.247\t/46.097\t/67.781\t/91.553\t/121.432\t/148.870\t/171.991 = User mode

What I mean is that looking at the numbers above you'll see that from 30IRE and up overall light output decreased, giving you a smoother curve. What you need to do is adjust your brightness/contrast controls(w/ patterns) EVERY TIME you change modes. That way you can do a more direct comparison.

About your green oversaturation, that's typical of digital displays. If you don't have Color decoder controls, there's nothing you can do about it.
Well it still seems like something funny is still going on with the user mode gamma. I adjusted the contrast so that I'm getting comparable intensities in the mid range IREs compared with the movie mode. They look to track against each other well up through 90 IRE but the intensity for 100 IRE in user mode does not follow the trend. I didn't think it was a clipping problem because I can get much higher intensities with a higher contrast setting. Hmm.

 

movie 0 ped col -3 tint -4 cont 37.zip 2.1904296875k . file

 

user col -3 tint -2 cont 28 brt 2.zip 0.9453125k . file
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post #98 of 3872 Old 01-16-2007, 09:53 AM
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I think I know why my output increases on low IREs, ruining the contrast ratio and the grayscale. When picture (white level) on the TV is set below 7, everything is fine. When picture is set to 7 or higher, then the red pixel components on the whole screen start flickering with low intensity. It seems like there is noise somewhere, I don't know where: in the player, in the cable or in the TV's HDMI port. You know, like when you plug a vacuum into the same outlet as a TV and turn it on, you see TV picture distorted? It is not as bad, but I can see how red subpixels flicker, and the whole screen gets reddish. My TV is 50-inch Panasonic 60U and the player is OPPO 970 connected over HDMI. When I turn the player off, the red subpixel flicker disappears.

I know that I should check all the chain, but maybe someone already have encountered similar problem with these devices.
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post #99 of 3872 Old 01-16-2007, 10:22 AM
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Ungermann, it sounds like you need to adjust the Red BIAS/CUT.

Don't forget that brightness and contrast (picture) interact. So as you increase picture (contrast) you are changing the level at which your sub-pixels turn on.

On my plasma I have individual bias controls for each colour and they definitely react differently.
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post #100 of 3872 Old 01-16-2007, 05:04 PM
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I just ordered the GetGray DVD. I noticed while reading the documentation that GetGray uses % levels for its' patterns and not IRE. How do I use GetGray with Color HCFR to get accurate measures for gray scale, primaries and secondaries.

Thanks
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post #101 of 3872 Old 01-16-2007, 05:25 PM
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The % levels in GetGray and the IRE used by ColorHCFR have the same meaning so you are good to go.
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post #102 of 3872 Old 01-17-2007, 12:28 AM
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jvincent, you were right. I turned red cut down a notch and voila! red mosquitoes gone. Thanks a lot!
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post #103 of 3872 Old 01-17-2007, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is another thread I'm following on gray scale and color decoders for reference.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=788072

But again, it has been stated here a couple times that color/tint should not be used to try and adjust the RGB points on the CIE triangle. You should use test patterns designed for this (GetGray) and a blue filter or turn off red and green guns.
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post #104 of 3872 Old 01-18-2007, 01:30 AM
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Hi folks,

I scrapped my previous runs, as my log gamma was just way too "S" shaped. I started from scratch with "pure cinema" on my Z3, and initial color of "MID" (CC30R attached also), then did my brightness/contrast. I found that the log gamma was much more like a straight line than previously (although it was between 2.3 and 2.4) so decided I'd try to get the grayscale done then. So, I now have the grayscale in pretty good shape (see attached chc file)

I know I can do better on grayscale (hopefully delta E of <1 from 20IRE upwards), but as you can see from a log gamma, my gamma is too high overall (or is it? - I am in a blacked-out room, so could I live with gamma higher than 2.2?). It's also not very straight, but much, much better than my last attempt, so I would prefer to try to smooth it out a little rather than try to start from scratch again.

Can anyone advise how to fix the "blue" trailling off at high IRE (not correct term I'm sure - I just don't understand the log gamma chart). How would I go about fixing the red tailing off towards low IRE? Also, any advice on how to "straighten" them up overall? Is my overall gamma too high at 2.3/2.4 for a blacked-out room, or do you think this would be ok?

Appreciate any more help you folks can give me - and another big thank you to the HCFR team.

Regards,
-rf

 

z3_user4_purecinema_mid_cont-2_bri0_iris30.zip 0.9677734375k . file
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post #105 of 3872 Old 01-18-2007, 07:56 AM
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If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about getting deltaE <1. That's probably outside of your visual perception. To fix your blue at high IRE you need to increase your blue GAIN or DRIVE depending on how it's labelled.

As to the gamma question, I'll repost the link to the following.

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/Color/sRGB

My understanding of this is that for a darker room, higher gamma is better. So in your case of a completely dark room, you should be OK with a higher gamma. Ultimately, there is a ceratain amount personal preference to choosing gamma, so if you're happy with the picture leave it alone.
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post #106 of 3872 Old 01-18-2007, 04:48 PM
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Last night I tried a few more runs with the software. The chain goes like this:

DVD-LG DV7832NXC
DVE Calibration Disk
BenQ PB6200
Spyder2

Now the first run, file called projector, was done about 1/2 hour after warmup. I changed gamma and PW gamma in the service menu because my previous night's work wasn't that good. I tweaked brightness/contrast with DVE. I then went to measure grayscale with the continuous measurements method. This gives you a really good starting point. Changed colour temperature a few clicks down and low and behold not a bad first run.

Now this is where it gets funky. Went to put the kid to bed, guess he was bored watching me!!, literally 3 minutes. I came back with the intention to cut BG at the top end. I decided to start up continuous measurements again and now I'm way out to lunch Ran thru the gray scales down to 0 and it is completely different than what I had 3 minutes earlier. I turned down colour temperatire all the way and that is what is depicted in the second file, named projector1. I didn't even bother trying to tweak it anymore because I was disappointed in how drastically different the measurements were. Check out the gamma results? One starts of low, in projector, and the other, in projector1, starts off high?

To better see what I am saying, open both files up and set one of them as the reference file. Neat feature that I just learned about last night.

Sorry for the long winded post, but I am miffed as to why my results were so different. Is it the probe? The Software? The DVD player? The projector? ANy suggestions?

I don't want to waste anymore time because I was so close but in the next breath so far.

 

Projector.ZIP 1.3525390625k . file

 

Projector1.ZIP 1.5126953125k . file

Meow.
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post #107 of 3872 Old 01-19-2007, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

The % levels in GetGray and the IRE used by ColorHCFR have the same meaning so you are good to go.

Are you sure? The GetGray manual says that their % are NOT the same as IRE, and give a number line so that you can convert one to the other....
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post #108 of 3872 Old 01-20-2007, 01:42 AM
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Sure, but in our case, when using anything but the build in pattern generator, it is exactely the same.

--Patrice

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post #109 of 3872 Old 01-20-2007, 05:20 AM
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"Are you sure? The GetGray manual says that their % are NOT the same as IRE, and give a number line so that you can convert one to the other.... "

the ColorHCFR team have created algorithms that correctly work with % stimulus calculations and erroneously labled them IRE.... just ignore it...


Jim White
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post #110 of 3872 Old 01-20-2007, 10:12 AM
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Has anyone had any luck with Sony color decoder adjustments? I have a Sony KDF-55XS955 & after several primary & secondary readings with my Eye-One Display 2 i cannot successfully control my way oversaturated colors. I've adjusted the RY-R RY-B GY-R & GY-B parameters in the service menu & they have no effect. I've gone as far as to bring them almost all the way down & HCFR is telling me that i'm way oversaturated!

Any tips or ideas would be greatly appreciated guys.

P.S. i do not have a report to upload guys as i was so disgusted last night i forgot to save it. If it is really necessary i will take some quick color readings & upload.

Thanks again guys!
Carmine.
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post #111 of 3872 Old 01-20-2007, 10:30 PM
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Well - finally think I've got this! Or at least I'm getting the hang of it.

Notes:

* TV is Pioneer PRO1140 50" Plasma

* Final cal settings are shown in the info area (a REALLY nice feature, BTW!)

* GetGray DVD

* SpyderTV, using the LCD and setting 'extend read time for dark...' option.

* CIE: I can move red and green closer to the reference triangle, but it does two things: 1) the primary will end up under the triangle. I believe a little over saturated is better than under. 2) Moving red/green any further leaves the cyan and magenta behind - outside of the both the reference and measured triangle. So I settled for the compromise you see. Comments?

* Because the primaries are off a bit, I found that moving the secondaries to line up with the primaries has better picture results than lining them up on the reference.

* Green is the biggest issue - I think it's a plasma thing (green phosphers are not yet to NTSC standards?) more than a color management problem. The end result is some green scenes look a bit garish (rarely) and sometimes yellows have a 'highlighter yellow' look - like football goalposts.

* Gray scale, temp, and DRE look good to me. There is some repeatability issues though in that another measurement will have slightly different results. But all my checks do show DRE below 4, so I think it's ok.

* After all was done, I ran the SpyderTV software to set the tint. Surprised to see it so far off 0 (9 clicks to red), but the results are perfect. Flesh tones are spot on.

Comments/suggestions welcome!

-Dave

 

PRO1140.zip 1.267578125k . file
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post #112 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 05:56 AM
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Dave, it wasn't clear from your explanation, was the CIE chart you have from before or after you adjusted tint based on the SpyderTV recommendation?
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post #113 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbower View Post

Well - finally think I've got this! Or at least I'm getting the hang of it.

Notes:

* TV is Pioneer PRO1140 50" Plasma

* Final cal settings are shown in the info area (a REALLY nice feature, BTW!)

* GetGray DVD

* SpyderTV, using the LCD and setting 'extend read time for dark...' option.

* CIE: I can move red and green closer to the reference triangle, but it does two things: 1) the primary will end up under the triangle. I believe a little over saturated is better than under. 2) Moving red/green any further leaves the cyan and magenta behind - outside of the both the reference and measured triangle. So I settled for the compromise you see. Comments?

* Because the primaries are off a bit, I found that moving the secondaries to line up with the primaries has better picture results than lining them up on the reference.

* Green is the biggest issue - I think it's a plasma thing (green phosphers are not yet to NTSC standards?) more than a color management problem. The end result is some green scenes look a bit garish (rarely) and sometimes yellows have a 'highlighter yellow' look - like football goalposts.

* Gray scale, temp, and DRE look good to me. There is some repeatability issues though in that another measurement will have slightly different results. But all my checks do show DRE below 4, so I think it's ok.

* After all was done, I ran the SpyderTV software to set the tint. Surprised to see it so far off 0 (9 clicks to red), but the results are perfect. Flesh tones are spot on.

Comments/suggestions welcome!

-Dave

What user mode are you using on the Pioneer to calibrate? Pure, User, Standard, Movie, Game? What gamma setting are you using on the Pioneer? 1, 2, 3?


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post #114 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 07:07 AM
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From the HFCR software post "patterns to author" download .

HFCR Free SoftWare

If my HTPC scales the *.mpg video down to 1280x720 are they still accurate to use? Nothing is lost other than size/resolution.

I have the HCFR DVD download. The problem is my media player has trouble pausing the low IRE chapters.

AJF

No such thing as a stupid question! Well have you got a minute ?
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post #115 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFryia View Post

From the HFCR software post "patterns to author" download .

HFCR Free SoftWare

If my HTPC scales the *.mpg video down to 1280x720 are they still accurate to use? Nothing is lost other than size/resolution.

I have the HCFR DVD download. The problem is my media player has trouble pausing the low IRE chapters.


I dont know much about HTPC but isnt possible to simply use the ColorHCFR built-in patterns already in the program in this case??

Rich L

Go Chicago Bears

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post #116 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 09:28 AM
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HTPCs can be funny since depending on how the PC is setup (and the player) it may or may not be mapping video levels to PC levels.
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post #117 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 11:54 AM
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AFryia, use the build-in generator (aka "view images") that will be a lot easier (and faster).

--Patrice

French speaking home theater
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post #118 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

Dave, it wasn't clear from your explanation, was the CIE chart you have from before or after you adjusted tint based on the SpyderTV recommendation?

The CIE chart shown is before the tint was adjusted.

-Dave
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post #119 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 02:22 PM
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What does it look like after?
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post #120 of 3872 Old 01-21-2007, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

What user mode are you using on the Pioneer to calibrate? Pure, User, Standard, Movie, Game? What gamma setting are you using on the Pioneer? 1, 2, 3?

Gamma was set to 2. The user modes do not matter (except for dynamic); each mode allows for a different set of stored calibration values. I use different user mode for cable box viewing vs DVD, as the Motorola POS cable box changes the saturation level and brightness.

I find that color level needs to be set about 5 clicks lower and brightness about 5 clicks higher for cable, otherwise colors are too saturated and blacks are crushed. If there was a way to send a signal through the box I would calibrate to that - but all external inputs are disabled (natch).

-Dave
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