Color HCFR Calibration Discussion (Post your calibration files here) - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 3872 Old 02-04-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimwhite View Post

I think you've confused the DTP-94 with the Eye One.


Nope, both have to be calibrated every 10 mins.
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post #182 of 3872 Old 02-04-2007, 09:09 AM
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Hi everybody, let me say that the picture looks like is has some kind of a greenish hue/tint to it. 2nd no I did not calibrate the dtp94 before doing the readings.
both of the sensors are set to LCD grayscale using 16-235 and primaries using 0-255, NTSC 601. both sensors are side by side. I knew from the past that the spyder probe gave some incorrect results but this is too much. I am using an oppo971 going through a denon 4306 via hdmi using getgray for the source material. Color / tint was set using a blue filter. But all that aside the reading from just the spyder do look very good. Too bad its not right otherwise this would be a Great setup. Thanks to all for chiming in on this topic. one more thing GO BEARS!

Education is what you get when you read the fine print.
Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Arthur Levitt
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post #183 of 3872 Old 02-04-2007, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by spudbudy View Post

2nd no I did not calibrate the dtp94 before doing the readings.

You have to calibrate it before readings.

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both of the sensors are set to LCD grayscale using 16-235 and primaries using 0-255, NTSC 601. both sensors are side by side.

There's NO NEED to change to 0-255 for primaries. Also, place the sensors one at a time on the same location.
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post #184 of 3872 Old 02-04-2007, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by spudbudy View Post

one more thing GO BEARS!


NO DOUBT!!!

Rich L

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post #185 of 3872 Old 02-04-2007, 11:34 AM
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Alright now I truly don't know what to say! I just got done redoing the same calibrations as yesterday following everyone suggestions and here are the results.
I can't explain why the spyder probe is reading totally different from yesterday. It seems like the two probes are now much more in line with each other. This will require me to start over from scratch. Maybe now I will get the best picture. Back to the drawing board but not today. After the big game I will try try again. GO BEARS!

 

spyder,vs dtp94.zip 3.0537109375k . file

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Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Arthur Levitt
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post #186 of 3872 Old 02-04-2007, 01:16 PM
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I would look at how you are setting up the sensor.

I know on my TV with my eye if red was that high I would be seeing a very large red tint to every thing. Red is at 123% at 10IRE and 20IRE with green at 94% and blue in the hole 64% On my set if red goes 105% with green and blue at 100% I see red.

I would trust my eye (as that's what really matters) and you said you see some green. Green does not even cross red until 70IRE even then not by much and for me it is harder to tell as the set gets brighter. At 10, 20 and 30IRE I can see colors much easier.
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post #187 of 3872 Old 02-04-2007, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spudbudy View Post

Alright now I truly don't know what to say! I just got done redoing the same calibrations as yesterday following everyone suggestions and here are the results.
I can't explain why the spyder probe is reading totally different from yesterday. It seems like the two probes are now much more in line with each other. This will require me to start over from scratch. Maybe now I will get the best picture. Back to the drawing board but not today. After the big game I will try try again. GO BEARS!

I knew something was off! Forget about the S2 and perform your next calibration w/ the DTP94. Make sure you set the sensor right up against the screen.

Bears...! Bears...! Bears...!
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post #188 of 3872 Old 02-05-2007, 12:25 PM
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Bears...! Bears...! Bears...!

wa wa wa....

Rich L

Go Chicago Bears

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post #189 of 3872 Old 02-05-2007, 12:49 PM
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Way to go COLTS !!!!!

Captain
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post #190 of 3872 Old 02-05-2007, 01:03 PM
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Stinkin' Bears!!!

Payton's parade should be awesome since the Colts are all about him ...
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post #191 of 3872 Old 02-05-2007, 09:29 PM
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Stinkin' Bears!!!

I thought the game went rather well, they did a very nice Super Bowl Stumble.......
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post #192 of 3872 Old 02-06-2007, 07:09 AM
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Hi,

As a total nooob, I need help. I'm stuck and can't find my way out. Here is the story:

Currently I'm using a Panasonic DVD-S97 DVD player with my Hitachi 32LD7200 LCD display. I'm using a HDMI connection and DVD player is set to RGB mode. I'm using a Eye-One Display LT probe and HCFR program and I'm trying to calibrate my LCD display. It's been a few days that I'm struggling but yet the secondary colors are WAY off

My LCD has 3 main sections in the menus for calibration of color:
- Color temperature (Red, Green, Blue Amplitude and Cut-off)
- Color management (Magenta, Red, Yellow, Green, Cyan and Blue sliders)
- Color decoder (Red, Green, Colour, Hue)

Also I have Brightness, Contrast, Backlight, Colour and Hue in the general menu. All these options are active when I use the HDMI-RGB input.

Using DVE and HCFR, I could set the brightness, contrast and backlight to achieve a decent contrast ratio of 650 with nice blacks and whites. Also I could use the color temperature settings to get gamma and white point to an acceptable level (Delta E less than 4 above 30 IRE). This was the easy part and I could do it in less than hour.

The difficult part or the rather impossible part for me (I'm working on it now for 3 days!) is to get the secondaries right: No matter how hard I try, all the time two of them remain way off (I'm talking about situations like when Cyan is actually halfway between blue and cyan targets!).

Last night I noticed something that maybe the key to my problems: I read four saturation levels for each of the secondaries (0, 25, 50, 75 and 100% lvls). I noticed that by increasing the saturation, secondaries start from D65 point and go toward their target point in a nice linear fashion, however, this only happens until the 75% saturation levels (where they are awfully close to the CMY targets) and when the saturation gets to 100%, the secondaries suddenly go far away from their target values. I feel it is like there is a GAIN for the secondaries that is too high so they get saturated too early. I don't know how to fix this problem and which controls to play with. Should I be able to fix this problem with those Color management settings? What exactly they are supposed to do? I could not figure out their function by playing with them. Any help or suggestion would be highly appreciated.
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post #193 of 3872 Old 02-06-2007, 12:33 PM
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Here is my current situation:



And here is the HCFR file:

 

32LD7200.zip 1.3876953125k . file
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post #194 of 3872 Old 02-06-2007, 07:49 PM
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Just did my 1st gray scale calibration on a 42" 600U panny. I used the spyder2 in lcd mode with the filter installed and the getgray dvd. The rgb levels look pretty good but how do I bring the green in the CIE diagram into alignment? Any feedback would be appreciated.

thanks,

-scott

 

th42px600u_020707.zip 5.095703125k . file
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post #195 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

The rgb levels look pretty good but how do I bring the green in the CIE diagram into alignment? Any feedback would be appreciated.

Hi zoyd,

Well, I'm only a beginner and as you can see in my previous posts I myself need LOT of help but maybe I can suggest something for you to try: If there is a "Color management" setting in your display, (there you should have sliders for all primaries and secondaries), try reducing the Green. Maybe it can help you.

Btw, I took a look at your HCFR file. WoW! An impressive job in calibrating the rgb lvls I've never had a plasma before. Looking at your file, I see that your plasma has such a deep black and it can achieve a very high contrast without blinding the viewers For comparison, my LCD has a much brighter blacks (Y = 0.35 vs. your 0.053) so it needs to be much brighter in whites (Y = 260 vs. your Y = 77.2) and yet it can not have such a high contrast ratio. Well, now I see why people like plasmas
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post #196 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alefsin View Post

Hi zoyd,

Well, I'm only a beginner and as you can see in my previous posts I myself need LOT of help but maybe I can suggest something for you to try: If there is a "Color management" setting in your display, (there you should have sliders for all primaries and secondaries), try reducing the Green. Maybe it can help you.

Btw, I took a look at your HCFR file. WoW! An impressive job in calibrating the rgb lvls I've never had a plasma before. Looking at your file, I see that your plasma has such a deep black and it can achieve a very high contrast without blinding the viewers For comparison, my LCD has a much brighter blacks (Y = 0.35 vs. your 0.053) so it needs to be much brighter in whites (Y = 260 vs. your Y = 77.2) and yet it can not have such a high contrast ratio. Well, now I see why people like plasmas

Thanks for the feedback, I debated for quite awhile between the new LCD's and plasma but the black levels are finally what convinced me. I did the cal using the service menu adjustments for rgb cuts and gains but have not found an adjustment that has a good effect on the green.

Looking at your cal file you have done a better job at getting the colors and gamma correct but I think you need to lower your reds at the low IRE's (10,20,30). I do this by lowering the red cut (brightness). The measures window is real handy for this, just put up the 20 IRE patch and cut the red in realtime until you get a good deltaE.
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post #197 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks for the feedback, I debated for quite awhile between the new LCD's and plasma but the black levels are finally what convinced me. I did the cal using the service menu adjustments for rgb cuts and gains but have not found an adjustment that has a good effect on the green.

Looking at your cal file you have done a better job at getting the colors and gamma correct but I think you need to lower your reds at the low IRE's (10,20,30). I do this by lowering the red cut (brightness). The measures window is real handy for this, just put up the 20 IRE patch and cut the red in realtime until you get a good deltaE.

Thanks for the tip. At this stage I didn't try to make my grays as good as my display can support, just tried to have something acceptable for the moment as I think by changing other settings related to my major problem (the secondaries) they may need to be optimized again. But I agree that your method, i.e. using a low IRE patch to set the cuts and a high IRE patch to set the gains in real-time mode is very quick and easy.

What other controls you have in service menu? As mentioned before, I have color decoder, management and temperature submenus. I could change the primaries using decoder and management settings. I don't think it is possible to "turn" the position of the primaries (somebody correct me if I'm telling nonesens) but you should be able to move them on the line that connects them to the D65 point. However, sometimes if the saturation of primaries is set too high, you may have some residuals of blue or red in your pure green and in effect change its position on the chart. So you can also try to reduce the global color saturation a little bit to see if it has any effect on your green.
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post #198 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 06:37 AM
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Good point, I will try reducing overall color saturation and then rebalance the gray scale tonite. Unfortunately this display does not have as many adjustments as others seem to have. In addition to the rgb cuts and gains in the service menu, it has all-cut and all-drv which I interpret as global brightness and contrast, wb-brt (white balance brightness?) don't know what that is, and color/tint. I thought secondaries can be moved around using the tint adjustment, have you tried that?
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post #199 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 06:40 AM
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Unfortunately Panasonic has decided that end users don't need color decoder settings in the service menu and that we should all be looking at radioactive grass.

I say we flood them with complaints to either reduce the green push or give us color decoder options in the service menu. It would not be hard to fix this with a firmware change.
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post #200 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I thought secondaries can be moved around using the tint adjustment, have you tried that?

Yes, I have tried the tint control. I could either have dead on yellow and way off cyan/magenta or I could have almost good yellow and magenta but really bad cyan with it

I have some ideas though.... tonight I'll try some more and report what I could do.
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post #201 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alefsin View Post

Yes, I have tried the tint control. I could either have dead on yellow and way off cyan/magenta or I could have almost good yellow and magenta but really bad cyan with it

I have some ideas though.... tonight I'll try some more and report what I could do.


Perhaps you need to get into the decoder controls as Todd mentioned. Wish I had that option.
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post #202 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Scott View Post

Unfortunately Panasonic has decided that end users don't need color decoder settings in the service menu and that we should all be looking at radioactive grass.

I say we flood them with complaints to either reduce the green push or give us color decoder options in the service menu. It would not be hard to fix this with a firmware change.

Hi Todd,

Can you post your cal file for your panny for comparison? I'm not exactly sure what constitutes green push. I interpret the current location of the green component to indicate that it is deficient in red (measured RGB709=[-15.5,49.4,0.23]). I do not notice any radioactive greens that you mention.

thanks
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post #203 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Just did my 1st gray scale calibration on a 42" 600U panny. I used the spyder2 in lcd mode with the filter installed and the getgray dvd. The rgb levels look pretty good but how do I bring the green in the CIE diagram into alignment? Any feedback would be appreciated.

thanks,

-scott

I have a panasonic plasma too and my green is in the same place (so is my red for that matter). This is just the way the phosphor glows. No can change.

Your Luminance levels seem low though. I generally get about 147 for 100% white but then I am using an eye one D2. I get a 60 if I use full screen rather than windowed due to power control kicking in to limit APL.

-Rich
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post #204 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 07:43 AM
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Zoyd, my CIE chart looks just like yours. If green is outside the triangle then you have green push.
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post #205 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

I have a panasonic plasma too and my green is in the same place (so is my red for that matter). This is just the way the phosphor glows. No can change.

Your Luminance levels seem low though. I generally get about 147 for 100% white but then I am using an eye one D2. I get a 60 if I use full screen rather than windowed due to power control kicking in to limit APL.

-Rich

I also noticed the low luminance value at the upper end, I think this is reflected in the decrease in gamma as a function of IRE level as well. I was using the windowed patches so it's not the APL, I think I just need to increase contrast and rebalance. By the way, for other spyder2 users I have been using an itegration time of 400 ms, extended dark and I position the probe ~6 inches from the display with a black tube light baffle. I don't trust placing the probe right next to the display as this can cause reflections between the filter and the display to bias the results. This gives me reproducible RGB results at 10IRE and a luminance reading at 0IRE which was a surprise for me.
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post #206 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 11:28 AM
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alefsin,

For your secondaries, first set your tint control with pattern and see how far off they are. BTW, I highly recommend Getgrey for digital displays. Then play around with the management controls and see if it makes a difference, adjust as best you can.

For your grayscale, zoom in on the chart (Num+-) to better see the amount of error. You need to cut back R brightness.
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post #207 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I also noticed the low luminance value at the upper end, I think this is reflected in the decrease in gamma as a function of IRE level as well. I was using the windowed patches so it's not the APL, I think I just need to increase contrast and rebalance.

Calibrating gamma IS adjusting light output at different levels, which of course when properly calibrated will not be the torch as from factory setting. Your set is nicely calibrated, but looking at the gamma curve (logarithmic mode the best method) you have room to increase contrast by a click or 2.

Also, yes your set has green push but it may not be as bad as it looks. The Spyder2 seems to read green and yellow a bit more oversaturated compared to better sensors.
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post #208 of 3872 Old 02-07-2007, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I also noticed the low luminance value at the upper end, I think this is reflected in the decrease in gamma as a function of IRE level as well. I was using the windowed patches so it's not the APL, I think I just need to increase contrast and rebalance. By the way, for other spyder2 users I have been using an itegration time of 400 ms, extended dark and I position the probe ~6 inches from the display with a black tube light baffle. I don't trust placing the probe right next to the display as this can cause reflections between the filter and the display to bias the results. This gives me reproducible RGB results at 10IRE and a luminance reading at 0IRE which was a surprise for me.

My current method is to increase contrast (i.e. picture) as high as possible while you are still able to follow a smooth gamma curve. For me this is about +15 (on a -30 to +30 range). As long as you do not see a flattening out of any of the three colors on the gamma plot you are not introducing distortion. If you simply prefer a dimmer display, then you could opt for a lower setting. The picture control is like a general slope added to the gamma while the brightness is a base offset.

No matter what you set your picture and brightness to the 0% and 100% points will ALWAYS lie directly on the gamma curve by definition. This is how the SW does its curve fit. So if the interval from 90% to 100% is distorted kind of flat, it will appear like the middle of the curve is actually sagging under the reference line when really the problem is too much gain (picture) and exceeding the dynamic range of the panel.

As bright as possible while tracking desired gamma is a good basic rule. Don't be afraid of contrast control. That's what its there for.

-Rich
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post #209 of 3872 Old 02-09-2007, 09:51 PM
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I finally got around to borrowing a laptop so I could try this great software out on my newish Sony SXRD(Kds60a2000). Unfortunately, the laptop doesn't have any networking capabilities, so I can only post jpgs of my screens. I would love to upload the .chc file, but I don't have a floppy on my desktop.

I think everything looks pretty good, aside from the wierdness in the gamma. I have seen that on other KDSxXa2000 users files. I really didn't want to muck around in the service menu when I wasn't sure what benefit it would yield.

I was able to upload the mpg2 hd test patterns from w6rz.net and play them through my HDTivo, so, happily, I was able to calibrate the source(as close as possible).

So, if anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Here are the screenies....

RGB

White Balance

Gamma

Thanks
Dug
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post #210 of 3872 Old 02-10-2007, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Bester View Post

I finally got around to borrowing a laptop so I could try this great software out on my newish Sony SXRD(Kds60a2000). Unfortunately, the laptop doesn't have any networking capabilities, so I can only post jpgs of my screens. I would love to upload the .chc file, but I don't have a floppy on my desktop.

I think everything looks pretty good, aside from the wierdness in the gamma. I have seen that on other KDSxXa2000 users files. I really didn't want to muck around in the service menu when I wasn't sure what benefit it would yield.

I was able to upload the mpg2 hd test patterns from w6rz.net and play them through my HDTivo, so, happily, I was able to calibrate the source(as close as possible).

So, if anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Here are the screenies....

RGB

White Balance

Gamma

Thanks
Dug

Posting your CHC file does not require that you need a floppy disk, what you need is something like WinZip, to zip the file and then attach it

on the gamma chart, please right click the pattern and select red,green and blue so that we can see everything as it relates to gamma

everythings looks decents btw..of course, the drop at the lowend is always a concern because that is where you want to be able to get as close as possible.

Rich L

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