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post #91 of 178 Old 04-23-2007, 08:47 PM
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Steve-

So with your above settings a grayscale pattern has no color or close to it? With two different dvd players and your settings about 2/3 of the way up the pattern (IRE60 and up?) there is definite redness to the bars (some more noticable than others)...now I know you can't just plug in numbers but wouldn't you think it would be close at least? The low end looks good though...I'll try my own calibration with the SM tonight and see what I get I guess...
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post #92 of 178 Old 04-23-2007, 09:43 PM
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Attached is a spreadsheet with DTP-94 and S2 Sensor Matrices in Excel to add to Zoyd's. I used an i1 Pro to calibrate a Panasonic TH-50PHD8UK, and then used that CHC file as a reference to correct subsequent S2 and DTP94 measures in LCD and CRT modes for each. All the CHC files for each run are included in the zip file with the Adjust XYZ Coordinates option on.

The accuracy of the probes compared to the i1 Pro from Best to worst:
DTP94 CRT Mode - This tracked the i1 Pro very closely - Delta E between DTP94 and i1 Pro reference from 2 to 3.7
DTP94 LCD Mode - Delta E jumped to to about 6.3 average
S2 LCD Mode - Also Delta E 6.3, gray scale tracked the DTP94 almost exactly!, but Y is high
S2 CRT Mode - Delta E 15, this was way off, surprising since it differs from Zoyd's results. I measured 3 times just to be sure!

The S2 CRT results were most surprising. I would have concluded that my S2 was faulty, but since S2 LCD Mode gray scale tracked the DTP94 LCD Mode with a Delta E less than 1, it must be functioning correctly. I will check it again when I have more time.

EDIT: The more I look at this, the more I think I need to retest the S2. The results are just too strange.
EDIT#2: I have confirmed that my S2 is inaccurate - see post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10476965
The DTP94 numbers are still good.
-JD

 

DTP94_S2_Sensor_Matrix.zip 13.6279296875k . file
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post #93 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 02:38 AM
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So it has been another late night for me...so I entered the matrix data for the D2 LCD and used the SM to calibrate as to remind you guys I could not get red gain high enough in the user menu...as you can see in my file below, I got everything lined up pretty good...the only thing is those darn grayscale bars on GG...it seems like every other bar is reddish and the ones in between are slightly greenish...this is from around 60IRE and up...is it unrealistic to expect this sensor to produce a perfect grayscale? With everything as good as it is in the file, I couldn't imagine making a 5% grayscale bar look much better...any feedback on my file? The hump in color temp at 50-60IRE looks very similar to someone else's here I believe...

Btw, it was mentioned in another thread that the 600U has a lower luminance after powering the set back on after calibrating with the SM...my 9UK does NOT do this...the measurements were the same...

 

HDMInosmmatrix.zip 1.1826171875k . file
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post #94 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

So it has been another late night for me...so I entered the matrix data for the D2 LCD and used the SM to calibrate as to remind you guys I could not get red gain high enough in the user menu...as you can see in my file below, I got everything lined up pretty good...the only thing is those darn grayscale bars on GG...it seems like every other bar is reddish and the ones in between are slightly greenish...this is from around 60IRE and up...is it unrealistic to expect this sensor to produce a perfect grayscale? With everything as good as it is in the file, I couldn't imagine making a 5% grayscale bar look much better...any feedback on my file? The hump in color temp at 50-60IRE looks very similar to someone else's here I believe...

Btw, it was mentioned in another thread that the 600U has a lower luminance after powering the set back on after calibrating with the SM...my 9UK does NOT do this...the measurements were the same...

Thanks for the feedback on the luminance thingy, looks like it's a consumer set problem. Your cal looks like it's getting there. You definately should be able to improve your 10,60,70 points, typically you should be able to get color temp to within +/- 100K on the plasmas. On my set it is not hard to do this but for some reason the 9UK's are more finicky. Even with my deltaE <2 and colortemp +/- 100K using the i1pro I can still pick out blips of color at the low end of the gray scale ramp, there is nothing you can do about that, it is quantization noise from the 8 bit color RGB processing. You might also try a run without the matrix correction to compare, remember this is an experimental technique at the moment.
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post #95 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 06:13 AM
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If you look at my i1 pro measures posted above, the Delta E is less than 1 from 30 to 100% and I still notice the changes in the color ramp too, less so in the gradient ramp. And I have found that the Input Level changes the visible variations - not to say that this is the way to fix it. I should also mention that for convenience/speed when I created the CHCs for each probe, I used the PC input and HCFR's View images. This tends to result in smoother readings than from my Oppo DVD, either due to the graphics cards vs DVD or just because it is a PC input. For actual calibration, I do use the DVD and HDMI input.

-JD
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post #96 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 06:28 AM
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JD,

I took a quick look at your S2-LCD results (used your matrix and ran it against my i1pro). The results were not good, it corrected the luminance problem but made the gray scale worse. deltaE jumped from an average of 3 to 7 and it was due to a -9% offset Red. Given your S2-CRT results I would conclude that your S2 is significantly different than mine and perhaps has drifted from it's original cal. How old is it? (mine is about 2 months old)
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post #97 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

JD,

I took a quick look at your S2-LCD results (used your matrix and ran it against my i1pro). The results were not good, it corrected the luminance problem but made the gray scale worse. deltaE jumped from an average of 3 to 7 and it was due to a -9% offset Red. Given your S2-CRT results I would conclude that your S2 is significantly different than mine and perhaps has drifted from it's original cal. How old is it? (mine is about 2 months old)

Mine is about the same age - about 2 months. After I did the S2 runs, I got an error from HCFR - probably from swapping probes too much on the same usb port - so I am suspicious of the results too. It was also strange that S2-LCD was sooo close to DTP-LCD. The last time I compared them, the S2-LCD 'y' equaled DTP-LCD 'y', but 'x' was different by .008. Could be wild swings in the S2, so I will run it again.
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post #98 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

And I have found that the Input Level changes the visible variations - not to say that this is the way to fix it.
-JD

This is because the input level changes the mapping of input to RGB levels so it will shift where the bit noise occurs in the ramps.
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post #99 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

So it has been another late night for me...so I entered the matrix data for the D2 LCD and used the SM to calibrate as to remind you guys I could not get red gain high enough in the user menu...as you can see in my file below, I got everything lined up pretty good...the only thing is those darn grayscale bars on GG...it seems like every other bar is reddish and the ones in between are slightly greenish...this is from around 60IRE and up...is it unrealistic to expect this sensor to produce a perfect grayscale? With everything as good as it is in the file, I couldn't imagine making a 5% grayscale bar look much better...any feedback on my file? The hump in color temp at 50-60IRE looks very similar to someone else's here I believe...

Btw, it was mentioned in another thread that the 600U has a lower luminance after powering the set back on after calibrating with the SM...my 9UK does NOT do this...the measurements were the same...


So, how about the bottom line, watching TV?! Are you getting closer to a "better" picture with the SM or Matrix settings?, Skin tones, etc. Sometimes we lose sight of the goal!


bob
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post #100 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

On my set it is not hard to do this but for some reason the 9UK's are more finicky. .


Would an ISF guy with all the right equipt. be able to nail the cal on these sets? I'm just wondering if it's the 9UK or the "consumer" test equip?



bob
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post #101 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:06 AM
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Bob - I don't think so. It's been said by ISF techs that the 9UK's grayscale can be a bit bouncy. If I had to blame a color, I'd say there is something up with Red.
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post #102 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:30 AM
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I calibrated last night with zoyd's S2-LCD matrix.

It changed many things since the Y measurement was also so off.....I now have the picture cranked up a few notches to reach 100 cd/m2 (boy it's getting bright). Also, green turned out being my weakest color instead of red....so user menu calibration was possible if I really wanted to.

I don't know if anyone has heard me mention that my green coordinate never seemed to be the same as any of the pro-reviews of the 9UK (in fact, it was quite a ways off).....well....

take a look at my before/after CIE's....my green (and all coordinates for that matter) track pretty closely to the pro reviews now.

As for grayscale....if I absolutely HAD to complain about something before the matrix change, I would have said it was a tad green/yellow. I figured it was due to the oversaturated green/yellow on these pannys.....but sure enough, an immediate grayscale run of the old calibration showed too much green. go figure.

I can say subjectively that my image looks a bit better. I need more dvd time though.
LL
LL
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post #103 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks for the feedback on the luminance thingy, looks like it's a consumer set problem. Your cal looks like it's getting there. You definately should be able to improve your 10,60,70 points, typically you should be able to get color temp to within +/- 100K on the plasmas. On my set it is not hard to do this but for some reason the 9UK's are more finicky. Even with my deltaE <2 and colortemp +/- 100K using the i1pro I can still pick out blips of color at the low end of the gray scale ramp, there is nothing you can do about that, it is quantization noise from the 8 bit color RGB processing. You might also try a run without the matrix correction to compare, remember this is an experimental technique at the moment.

Looks like I have another late night coming tonight ...any ideas how to improve the 60 and 70 points (try to "warm up" the IRE80 reading a little? What I don't understand is I would think to bring 60 and 70 in line I would be making the grayscale bars and things like snow for that matter more reddish than it already is...). I don't know how many people with 9UKs have been able to get IRE10 very accurate...I haven't been able to get one even close...

I'll do one without the matrix and post it tonight so some comparisons can be made...
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post #104 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post


take a look at my before/after CIE's....my green (and all coordinates for that matter) track pretty closely to the pro reviews now.

Nice, that also matches the CIE I see on my panny with the exception of the magenta and yellow point, I tweak tint to nail magenta on target and dial down color a couple of ticks to get yellow less saturated. This puts the blue point slightly undersaturated but since we are much more sensitive to yellow than blue it's a worthwhile trade-off.

Actually colin, your results have given me another idea. This may be a better method for cross-calibration than trying to find the "average" probe response. If all the panny's have the same primaries then each user can create his own XYZ adjustments to get the correct primaries, gray scale follows from that. So as a test I will post my x,y,Y coordinates for 75% primaries from the i1pro, JD can do the same and we'll see how close they are. If they agree, then you guys can use them to program your own matrix corrections.
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post #105 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Nice, that also matches the CIE I see on my panny with the exception of the magenta and yellow point, I tweak tint to nail magenta on target and dial down color a couple of ticks to get yellow less saturated. This puts the blue point slightly undersaturated but since we are much more sensitive to yellow than blue it's a worthwhile trade-off.

Sounds like a decent trade-off (if you're not using RGB).

BTW - I played around with the Chroma toys...like the GUN modes to shut off all colors except blue, etc. Just to test the color decoding of the 9UK. When people say it's spot on, they're not kidding. It was perfection for all colors/intensities.

I tested both the component input (so I'd see the 9UK's decoding)...and the 360's decoding (since it already passes the 9UK RGB via VGA). The 360's was perfection too.....as you'd hope.
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post #106 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:54 AM
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post #107 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Actually colin, your results have given me another idea. This may be a better method for cross-calibration than trying to find the "average" probe response. If all the panny's have the same primaries then each user can create his own XYZ adjustments to get the correct primaries, gray scale follows from that. So as a test I will post my x,y,Y coordinates for 75% primaries from the i1pro, JD can do the same and we'll see how close they are. If they agree, then you guys can use them to program your own matrix corrections.

That's a fantastic plan. Our panels being the same gen, I can't imagine the green phosphers being different beyond small manufacturing variations. With this in mind, I might consider using avrev.com and cnet.com coordinates too. Or better yet....average those 2 and yours.

You'll have to enlighten me on getting x,y,Y transformed to the sensor correction matrix though...
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post #108 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

i1pro panny x,y,Y 75%

R:.655698,.330247,11.913
G:.272642,.628014,37.5
B:.146482,.065729,3.544

btw - here's my x,y,Y after your matrix correction:

R: .655, .331, 14.512
G: .270, .652, 39.019
B: .151, .069, 5.182

How did you get so many significant digits out of hcfr?
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post #109 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:10 AM
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So...I assume I'm going to take my 'non-corrected' x,y,Y measurements of RGB.....then take your x,y,Y (or from avrev.com/cnet.com) and apply 'something' to create the 3x3 correction matrix.....I don't know what that 'something' is though I'm afraid.
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post #110 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

btw - here's my x,y,Y after your matrix correction:

R: .655, .331, 14.512
G: .270, .652, 39.019
B: .151, .069, 5.182

How did you get so many significant digits out of hcfr?

I use the XYZ numbers and calculate xyY in a spreadsheet. x=X/(X+Y+Z), y=Y/(X+Y+Z)

Procedure for generating correction matrix:

1. Open two documents for the same probe, one will be for reference, the other for measurements.
2. Set one document as reference (window reference measure check "set")
3. Paste primaries target into reference Primaries window
4. Measure 75% primaries in the other doc.
5. Advanced->Adjust XYZ coordinates.

sensor matrix is now populated.
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post #111 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Does RGB adj. affect the points on the triangle (not the reference)?


Does Color & Tint move the points on the triangle?



I though the CIE readings just told how accurate a particular sets' colors (phosphors) were? IE, the Panny green will never be correct on the triangle?

lots to learn



bob





Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

I calibrated last night with zoyd's S2-LCD matrix.

It changed many things since the Y measurement was also so off.....I now have the picture cranked up a few notches to reach 100 cd/m2 (boy it's getting bright). Also, green turned out being my weakest color instead of red....so user menu calibration was possible if I really wanted to.

I don't know if anyone has heard me mention that my green coordinate never seemed to be the same as any of the pro-reviews of the 9UK (in fact, it was quite a ways off).....well....

take a look at my before/after CIE's....my green (and all coordinates for that matter) track pretty closely to the pro reviews now.

As for grayscale....if I absolutely HAD to complain about something before the matrix change, I would have said it was a tad green/yellow. I figured it was due to the oversaturated green/yellow on these pannys.....but sure enough, an immediate grayscale run of the old calibration showed too much green. go figure.

I can say subjectively that my image looks a bit better. I need more dvd time though.

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post #112 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:22 AM
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Ain't that fancy!

Hmm...how does our Y values play a roll in this though? For instance, your Y given to me is not necessarily the corrected version of mine, since I may simply have different luminance @ 75% intensity....

How do we get around that?
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post #113 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

Ain't that fancy!

Hmm...how does our Y values play a roll in this though? For instance, your Y given to me is not necessarily the corrected version of mine, since I may simply have luminance @ 75% intensity....

How do we get around that?

Yes, I have to think about that. It may require an extra step, matching the 75% Y value before measurement or maybe total X+Y+Z...
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post #114 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Does RGB adj. affect the points on the triangle (not the reference)?bob

The reason my CIE coordinates moved slightly was because of a correction applied to my S2-LCD mode. Not because they actually changed. If you're referring to RGB adjustments for grayscale....no they do not. That's a 'mixture' to obtain correct gray - D65.

Quote:
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Does Color & Tint move the points on the triangle?

Traditional Tint (blue Tint) adjusts the amount of blue present in Cyan and Magenta....one way will give more toward Cyan (less for Magenta), and the other way will do the opposite. So Tint will move your Cyan/Magenta. A correct decoder will have the same amount of blue in Cyan & Magenta.....hence why you view "Cyan/Magenta" through a blue filter to see how much blue is in each....they should be the same.

Color is a saturation of all colors in your gamut. It moves everything 'in or out'....saturated or less saturated. This is not a true color managment change....it's a decoding trick. Typically you use filter to measure the intensity of Blue versus the Blue in white. The intensity should be the same. Hence why you view a white/blue through a blue filter to observe the same amount of blue to set Color. This is a traditional way of setting saturation. Sometimes when there's heavy Red-Push, you could desaturate using red to 'tame it down'.


Quote:
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I though the CIE readings just told how accurate a particular sets' colors (phosphors) were? IE, the Panny green will never be correct on the triangle?
bob

You're correct for the most part. As long as your decoding is not desaturating or pulling anything, it will show you how your R, G, and B 'glows'. Remember - the change to my green was due to my sensor reading it differently....not because my green actually changed.

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lots to learn
bob

It's fun though ain't it?
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post #115 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:36 AM
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post #116 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Yes, I have to think about that. It may require an extra step, matching the 75% Y value before measurement or maybe total X+Y+Z...

Hmm....did you mention that you had observed a 22% higher Y via LCD than CRT? If that's the case....and you can confirm that this didn't fluctuate around the 75% range.....then perhaps I could simply say, (correctedY = 1.22*oldY) ?

EDIT: OOPS...that equation is wrong...but you know what i mean....
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post #117 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdawg17 View Post

Looks like I have another late night coming tonight ...any ideas how to improve the 60 and 70 points (try to "warm up" the IRE80 reading a little? What I don't understand is I would think to bring 60 and 70 in line I would be making the grayscale bars and things like snow for that matter more reddish than it already is...). I don't know how many people with 9UKs have been able to get IRE10 very accurate...I haven't been able to get one even close...

I'll do one without the matrix and post it tonight so some comparisons can be made...

btw - if you look at the cnet.com review...you'll notice the following:

Before grayscale variation: +/- 97K
After grayscale variation: +/- 278K

Looks like it's the price you pay to have an accurate grayscale on this unit.
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post #118 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 10:02 AM
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I pulled the primaries from the i1 Pro measure file I posted earlier - I assume HCFR View Images runs 75% for the primaries, but my Y values seem high.??

Red 0.659, 0.329, 24.842
Green 0.279, 0.646, 72.805
Blue 0.155, 0.074, 10.353

How are you getting to six decimal places? And you lost me, how do we create a sensor matrix from this - divide the actual by the reference probe for x,y, and Y?

Also, I will check my S2 against standard PC direct view CRT and LCD monitors using the i1 Pro as reference. That should tell me if my S2 is out of whack or not.

EDIT: I see you already answered my questions above!

-JD
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post #119 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 10:20 AM
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x,y are independent of intensity so I'm guessing that this technique will be able to fix primary/secondary location and gray scale measurements but it won't fix any offsets in total luminance. I'll do some tests later and check this out.
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post #120 of 178 Old 04-24-2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

I pulled the primaries from the i1 Pro measure file I posted earlier - I assume HCFR View Images runs 75% for the primaries, but my Y values seem high.??

-JD

Looks like 100% to me. If you have fully saturated primaries Yr+Yg+Yb=Yw
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