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post #151 of 178 Old 04-25-2007, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I think Bob's question was more geared towards "What's in it for me?"


Or, "Tell me what to do, guys"


bob
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post #152 of 178 Old 04-26-2007, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Or, "Tell me what to do, guys"


bob

have you tried using zoyd's offset matrix for the D2-LCD? Go back (last page?) to his excel file....on the bottom take the 3x3 matrix and put it in HCFR. Do this by going to Sensor->Configure->Sensor Matrix. Paste it in there.

Redo your grayscale, etc.
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post #153 of 178 Old 04-26-2007, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

have you tried using zoyd's offset matrix for the D2-LCD? Go back (last page?) to his excel file....on the bottom take the 3x3 matrix and put it in HCFR. Do this by going to Sensor->Configure->Sensor Matrix. Paste it in there.

Redo your grayscale, etc.


pdawg has the D2 that we are "sharing" so he's the guinea pig at the moment. I think I want to get my own probe and was hoping all this testing might reveal what the best bang for the buck plasma probe would be.


bob
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post #154 of 178 Old 04-26-2007, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

pdawg has the D2 that we are "sharing" so he's the guinea pig at the moment. I think I want to get my own probe and was hoping all this testing might reveal what the best bang for the buck plasma probe would be.


bob

ya....i knew both weren't all that great, so i went with the cheapo S2. I think a matrix-correction setup like this will suffice until they make cheap colorimeters suitable for plasma panel conditions...
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post #155 of 178 Old 04-26-2007, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

ya....i knew both weren't all that great, so i went with the cheapo S2. I think a matrix-correction setup like this will suffice until they make cheap colorimeters suitable for plasma panel conditions...

I'm going to work on the D2-CRT mode a bit more this weekend, in my initial tests it did better than LCD mode on the plasma but it's a pain to use because you have to pull some tricks with it to get it to work with HCFR. I've asked the HCFR folks to make it easier to use this mode with version 2 but I know they are getting ready to release it so this type of change probably won't make it in the new version.
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post #156 of 178 Old 04-26-2007, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

pdawg has the D2 that we are "sharing" so he's the guinea pig at the moment. I think I want to get my own probe and was hoping all this testing might reveal what the best bang for the buck plasma probe would be.
bob

I think the best low cost meter for plasma may be the DTP94 in CRT mode (aka Monaco Optix XR). Unfortunately, it is hard to find, since it is all but discontinued. And if you can find it, it's costs more than what I paid for it. It is fast, consistent, and has some kind of auto-exposure reading. If you pull the numbers from the CHC files I posted earlier, you'll see that it is x,y,Y are all in the ballpark of the i1:



Not too shabby!

-JD
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post #157 of 178 Old 04-26-2007, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

I think the best low cost meter for plasma may be the DTP94 in CRT mode (aka Monaco Optix XR). Unfortunately, it is hard to find, since it is all but discontinued. And if you can find it, it's costs more than what I paid for it. It is fast, consistent, and has some kind of auto-exposure reading. If you pull the numbers from the CHC files I posted earlier, you'll see that it is x,y,Y are all in the ballpark of the i1:

i1 vs DTP94 Variance
IRE x y Y
10 0.000 -0.003 0.015
20 0.000 0.003 -0.066
30 -0.001 0.002 -0.258
40 -0.001 0.003 -0.402
50 -0.001 0.003 -0.695
60 -0.001 0.003 -0.932
70 -0.001 0.003 -1.268
80 -0.001 0.003 -1.832
90 -0.001 0.004 -1.829
100 -0.001 0.003 -2.770

Not too shabby!

-JD

Thanks,

And it works with HCFR? CRT mode on a plasma? Require trickery like the S2 to do that?

thx

bob

pm if you know wher to get one
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post #158 of 178 Old 04-26-2007, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spongebob View Post

Thanks,

And it works with HCFR? CRT mode on a plasma? Require trickery like the S2 to do that?

thx

bob

pm if you know wher to get one

Yes, HCFR supports it, and the results from my plasma above were obtained in CRT mode. Keep in mind that that was one test, so more runs should be obtained just to be sure. And even though the x,y values are pretty close and the Delta E was between 2 and 4 across the gray scale from the i1 Pro reference, to me it was still visibly off. My guess is that I could see the small difference as the resulting calibration moved away from both Red/Blue towards Green, which might be more noticeable to the eye than moving towards Blue or Red. So it could still benefit from a sensor matrix, assuming it is consistent enough probe to probe. And if you have the D2, it may perform as well or better with the sensor matrix, that is if we are making the same assumption about probe consistency.

Anyway, I leave you a PM with some possible sources and price information.

-JD
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post #159 of 178 Old 04-28-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I use HCFR and sync it to a spare CRT monitor just to get the CRT cal table loaded. After that it works just fine on the plasma as you can see from the measurements. I think this works because the effective "scan rate" of a plasma is much greater than a 60 Hz CRT so that many on/off cycles happen during the D2 integration time and it won't matter much what rate the D2 is synced to. Btw, plasmas are inherently bi-level devices, the pixel is either on or off. The intensity is varied using pulse width modulation.

Here are the chc files if anyone is interested.

Zoyd,

I had an idea (uh-oh). You were able to get the D2-CRT mode working on a PDP by syncing it with a 60Hz CRT prior to the measurements, but it returned inconsistent results. I am assuming that it uses that 60Hz value for the rest of the measures, otherwise it might return an error. Well, what if 60Hz isn't the magic number to make the D2 sync correctly on a PDP? What if it might work better at some other frequency? Through trial and error, you might be able to find the best rate to use if you set your CRT monitor to 70, 75, 85Hz, etc, and try to sync the D2 to those values before a measurement. Or maybe you tried that already?

-JD
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post #160 of 178 Old 04-28-2007, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

Zoyd,

I had an idea (uh-oh). You were able to get the D2-CRT mode working on a PDP by syncing it with a 60Hz CRT prior to the measurements, but it returned inconsistent results. I am assuming that it uses that 60Hz value for the rest of the measures, otherwise it might return an error. Well, what if 60Hz isn't the magic number to make the D2 sync correctly on a PDP? What if it might work better at some other frequency? Through trial and error, you might be able to find the best rate to use if you set your CRT monitor to 70, 75, 85Hz, etc, and try to sync the D2 to those values before a measurement. Or maybe you tried that already?

-JD

hey JD,

The D2 worked fine at 60 Hz, the results weren't inconsistent, just noisy, so to get good results you have to average a series of measurements manually. The errors using CRT mode were a bit smaller than LCD mode, but it wasn't a huge improvement. The D2 will never sync to a plasma because a plasma's effective scan rate is in the kHz range due to pulse width modulation.
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post #161 of 178 Old 04-28-2007, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

hey JD,

The D2 worked fine at 60 Hz, the results weren't inconsistent, just noisy, so to get good results you have to average a series of measurements manually. The errors using CRT mode were a bit smaller than LCD mode, but it wasn't a huge improvement. The D2 will never sync to a plasma because a plasma's effective scan rate is in the kHz range due to pulse width modulation.

In spite of PWM, the S2 somehow reads 59.65Hz from my PDP, and jumps to ~107Hz at higher IRE, and that value is multiplied by some fixed value programatically to arrive at a "Frame" rate which is passed to the the sensor when it calls for a XYZ measure. And that Frame rate parameter effects the timing of the measurement, and possibly the accuracy. I believe the DTP94 also works this way. So my idea is that the D2 CRT mode might provide better results if the 'sweet spot' of the sync/Frame rate is found to set it's timing correctly. And the odds are good that I am totally wrong and the results would be the same and this would be a waste of time, .
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post #162 of 178 Old 05-02-2007, 08:29 PM
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post #163 of 178 Old 05-02-2007, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

For JD, here are the i1pro/S2 comparison files.

Thanks!
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post #164 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 08:51 AM
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zoyd - what do those files represent? was one run reference and the others the same-settings readings?
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post #165 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

zoyd - what do those files represent? was one run reference and the others the same-settings readings?

yes, i1pro reference, s2 lcd/crt readings at same settings.
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post #166 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

yes, i1pro reference, s2 lcd/crt readings at same settings.

I'm curious about your matrix offset for S2-LCD....it's different than the one you've published.

Also....wow....your S2-LCD is basically spot on! .....the difference in 10step/20step between the two is misleading....but the 10step comparison makes them almost identical! (except 10ire)

also...do you saturation knocked down a few clicks?
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post #167 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 09:21 AM
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post #168 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

ack, I think I uploaded the wrong files, they should all be 20 step. Let me check it out and fix.

I was wondering how that worked. Thanks.
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post #169 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbimmer View Post

I was wondering how that worked. Thanks.

ok, correct ones are in the zipfile. sorry for that, it was late. The corrections you get from these runs are slightly different than the ones in the excel file, let me know if they are significant and I can go back and dig those out too.
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post #170 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

ok, correct ones are in the zipfile. sorry for that, it was late. The corrections you get from these runs are slightly different than the ones in the excel file, let me know if they are significant and I can go back and dig those out too.

those are very interesting, thank you.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the 'current' consensus:

S2-CRT - great for accurate luminance reads on plasma, but can vary too much from sensor to sensor, etc.

S2-LCD - terrible for accurate luminance, but consistently 'ok' for grayscale....reading possibly too much blue, or less red.

Current methods of compensation:

1. Use S2-CRT to establish luminance/gamma. Use S2-LCD to balance grayscale while possibly aiming for a cooler white point.

2. Use the offset matrix for S2-LCD and balance grayscale & luminance...
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post #171 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

those are very interesting, thank you.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the 'current' consensus:

S2-CRT - great for accurate luminance reads on plasma, but can vary too much from sensor to sensor, etc.

S2-LCD - terrible for accurate luminance, but consistently 'ok' for grayscale....reading possibly too much blue, or less red.

Current methods of compensation:

1. Use S2-CRT to establish luminance/gamma. Use S2-LCD to balance grayscale while possibly aiming for a cooler white point.

2. Use the offset matrix for S2-LCD and balance grayscale & luminance...

good summary, although the S2-CRT variation statement was only based on the fact that JD's S2/i1pro match-up did not agree with mine. He has since said that there may have been a problem with his 1st run and he will retest to confirm.
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post #172 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

good summary, although the S2-CRT variation statement was only based on the fact that JD's S2/i1pro match-up did not agree with mine. He has since said that there may have been a problem with his 1st run and he will retest to confirm.

Well...I know this isn't a scientific contribution (i have no i1pro).....but I can subjectively tell you that my original runs using S2-CRT resulted in a grayscale that was slightly green.

This would line up perfectly with your findings that CRT mode sees too much red/blue....which would cause one to increase green. How much, I of course don't know....
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post #173 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colin6969 View Post

those are very interesting, thank you.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the 'current' consensus:

S2-CRT - great for accurate luminance reads on plasma, but can vary too much from sensor to sensor, etc.

S2-LCD - terrible for accurate luminance, but consistently 'ok' for grayscale....reading possibly too much blue, or less red.

Current methods of compensation:

1. Use S2-CRT to establish luminance/gamma. Use S2-LCD to balance grayscale while possibly aiming for a cooler white point.

2. Use the offset matrix for S2-LCD and balance grayscale & luminance...

where does that leave the D2?
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post #174 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffche View Post

where does that leave the D2?

The error in the D2 with plasmas is not really that bad, I measured a deltaE of 3 between the D2 and the i1pro and Tom Huffman gets similar results. It's better than the S2 in terms of low light sensitivity so you'll get better measurements 0%-10%. You can try it both with and without the corrections to see if you prefer one over the other but you should get a good cal either way.
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post #175 of 178 Old 05-03-2007, 08:45 PM
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Is this deltaE of 3 in LCD or CRT mode?
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post #176 of 178 Old 05-04-2007, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDholic View Post

Is this deltaE of 3 in LCD or CRT mode?

LCD mode, CRT mode did a little better but is a pain to use with HCFR. Also note that this is deltaE in u*v* space and for the white point. The error in measuring the location of the red primary was 10. The plot is on the 1st page of this thread.
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post #177 of 178 Old 05-04-2007, 11:09 AM
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Yea the way CRT mode works is if it does not find a scan sync while reading it goes into some odd default mode and the results can be inconstant, the reading times can be anywhere from 0.5 to 5 seconds, when they should be 1.5 to 2 in CRT mode. I have not given up on this task and am still working on a solution for the D2 and Plasma. In fact we now have x-rite/GMB working with us on this as well. Our goal is to have the D2 perform as well on Plasma as it does with all the other types of displays.

Derek

CTO / Founder - SpectraCal Inc.
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post #178 of 178 Old 05-04-2007, 06:56 PM
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It's great to have the makers helping out! Please, keep us updated on any advances.
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