Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS (updated and enhanced) - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 1936 Old 12-09-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Hence, when the color difference signals are bandwidth limited (as they are in all video systems through analog filtering or digital subsampling/filtering such as 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 digital formats) some of the high frequency luminance information is lost. I don't have time to read and comment on the document you refer to above, but that is the origin of high frequency luminance errors in our video systems. (Actually there is an additional reason in the case of Rec 601 systems because the wrong luma coefficients are also used, but that is independent of a non-constant luminance system.)

Thanks gregr for the info, I'm not clear on why the chroma channels are special, doesn't the luma channel likewise get attenuated at high frequencies?

Regarding 601 coefficients, even though they are wrong for anything other than NTSC primaries in Poynton's example (using magenta) he shows that this particular error using rec.601 is smaller than what you get using rec.709. I take it he was pretty strongly opposed to moving to rec.709 coefficients.

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post #512 of 1936 Old 12-09-2007, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks gregr for the info, I'm not clear on why the chroma channels are special, doesn't the luma channel likewise get attenuated at high frequencies?

The CbCr channels are sub-sampled to reduce the bit rate of digital signals. Professional video uses 4:2:2 signals where the CbCr signals are sub-sampled by a factor of 2 across each horizontal video line, i.e. there is only one Cb and one Cr pixel for every two Y pixels. Consumer video uses 4:2:0 signals where the Cb and Cr signals are also subsampled vertically, i.e. there is also only one line of Cb and one line of Cr pixels for every two lines of Y pixels. In order to prevent aliasing, the horizontal (for 4:2:2) and the vertical (for 4:2:0) bandwidth of the digital signals must be reduced by a factor of two. That is where the large loss of high frequencies occurs. The Y (luma) channel has twice the horizontal (and vertical in the case of 4:2:0 signals) bandwidth. If the digital signal information is converted to analog signals there is some additional (very minor when done properly) reduction in bandwidth, but the damage was done in the digital source signals. (For NTSC and PAL composite analog video signals a much greater reduction of the PbPr chroma signal bandwidth is used for broadcast transmission.)

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Regarding 601 coefficients, even though they are wrong for anything other than NTSC primaries in Poynton's example (using magenta) he shows that this particular error using rec.601 is smaller than what you get using rec.709. I take it he was pretty strongly opposed to moving to rec.709 coefficients.

I've never run those calculations, but I think the transference of luma information into the chroma difference channels probably increases the farther the primaries are from the reference white (i.e. D65 in our case) in the non-constant luminance system. So you would have to weigh that error vs the error created by using the wrong luma equation (i.e. using the original NTSC primary luma equation vs the Rec. 709 primary luma equation). Like I said, I've never done those calculations so I don't know how that tradeoff would come out. In any event, it's immaterial because Rec 709 standardizes on the correct luma equation (unlike Rec 601 which retained the original NTSC luma equation, instead of using the luma equation derived from the SMPTE C primaries).

Greg Rogers
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post #513 of 1936 Old 12-13-2007, 08:27 AM
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To Tom Huffman: Hi, with 10% window in yours instructions on setting of brightness you mean how big the window has to be yes? (still there is not such patternin HCFR patterns disc or ours)
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post #514 of 1936 Old 12-13-2007, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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No. I would have never imagined this issue would have resulted in so much confusion.

Gray scale patterns come in either windows or full fields. They offer input levels from 0% to 100% in (typically) 10% increments.

"Window" refers to the size. 10% refers to the input level.

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post #515 of 1936 Old 12-14-2007, 07:43 AM
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Hi Tom, i now actualy get what you wanted to say! I am not a englisch speaker and therefore it was little bit complicated to me, to understand . You mean that the 0.63 % should be the difference between the levels of gray!(say 100 and 90). Other thing is, that when i change brightness gamme curve naturaly changes too and when i correct her by darkening the gamma setting, i am there where i started...the gamma presets on TW1000 are not for much use, only with 2.4 i get something little bit similar to 2.2 gamma, but only at brightnes and contrast at -1, other than that,i need to set the gamma at custom )I am still not clear about the 15fL for setting contrast as with running TW1000 at low lamp and in the darkest color mode TB2 i get 7fL at most, naturaly when i choose bright mode like dynamic or living room, i get to 15fL, but this modes are unusable in darkened HT room. I naturaly use the moode with darkest blacks. Still i would realy needet to know how set contrast and brightness for once and all, as every small change in their settings realy changes the gamma curve , which creating is painfully slow process with HCFR and Spyder.
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post #516 of 1936 Old 12-14-2007, 08:21 AM
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when i use the wright brightness(in this case 3) and set the contrast at number that givest the highesst Y/fL(what was actualy arond 1-2), the gamma jumps to 1.9
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post #517 of 1936 Old 01-01-2008, 02:22 AM
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excellent thread.

I'll have a look at the service menu on the sony W2000 lcd panel and let you know what access it has.
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post #518 of 1936 Old 01-01-2008, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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No. The correct setting for brightness is when the 10% window is 0.63% as bright as the 100% window.

The gamma curve SHOULD change when you adjust brightness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talkron View Post

Hi Tom, i now actualy get what you wanted to say! I am not a englisch speaker and therefore it was little bit complicated to me, to understand . You mean that the 0.63 % should be the difference between the levels of gray!(say 100 and 90). Other thing is, that when i change brightness gamme curve naturaly changes too and when i correct her by darkening the gamma setting, i am there where i started...the gamma presets on TW1000 are not for much use, only with 2.4 i get something little bit similar to 2.2 gamma, but only at brightnes and contrast at -1, other than that,i need to set the gamma at custom )I am still not clear about the 15fL for setting contrast as with running TW1000 at low lamp and in the darkest color mode TB2 i get 7fL at most, naturaly when i choose bright mode like dynamic or living room, i get to 15fL, but this modes are unusable in darkened HT room. I naturaly use the moode with darkest blacks. Still i would realy needet to know how set contrast and brightness for once and all, as every small change in their settings realy changes the gamma curve , which creating is painfully slow process with HCFR and Spyder.


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post #519 of 1936 Old 01-02-2008, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I'd say worthless describes it pretty well. You can move the color points with it some, but it screws up the gray scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I take it you don't consider the pioneer elite CMS functional. Does it allow for any improvement in color or is it just worthless?

Tom:

Does this apply to the new Pioneer Kuro sets? In particular the PRO-110FD (the new 50" 1080p Kuro)?

If it is useless, how can they continually market the ISF CCC modes on the set. Isn't the point of that the ability to be calibrated?

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post #520 of 1936 Old 01-02-2008, 12:26 PM
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ISF CCC does not guarantee in any way that the display adhere to Video standards, or that it calibrates well for that matter. It only provide the means of locking in two memories (Day and Night) that can not be changed by a user (unless provided with the code to do so, or the software that supports it).

In the case of the Pioneer Kuro (G8), it actually calibrates very well - and is one of the few flatscreens that come close to the standards IMO. It has issues with overscan though.

The ISF CCC support for Pioneer G8 in Colorfacts is still in beta mode, but it works reasonably well - and knowing the pitfalls it can actually be used as is today. Except som enhanced gamma capabilities it does not provide any more parameters to adjust than the normal user menues - and of course the ability to lock two memories from the end user.

cheers

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post #521 of 1936 Old 01-03-2008, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I take it you don't consider the pioneer elite CMS functional. Does it allow for any improvement in color or is it just worthless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I'd say worthless describes it pretty well. You can move the color points with it some, but it screws up the gray scale.

Tom have you measured this effect and how large it is?

I have an NEC, which is the same panel and I believe the same electronics as the Pioneer Elites of a couple of years ago, and just did a quick experiment.

With a crossed greyscale ramp being displayed I moved the green primary control from it's normal position, which is normally pegged all the way to yellow, to the complete opposite end and did not see any difference in the ramps.

This was a quick test, so I didn't have a chance to do an actual greyscale measurement with a colorimeter but I would have expected to see some difference for such a drastic change.

Your thoughts?
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post #522 of 1936 Old 01-03-2008, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't have any numbers to share, only an anecdotal report. I spent quite a bit of very frustrating time on an Elite with the result I reported. However, another user reported that in the "Pure" mode this problem does not occur, a claim I have not been able to verify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

Tom have you measured this effect and how large it is?

I have an NEC, which is the same panel and I believe the same electronics as the Pioneer Elites of a couple of years ago, and just did a quick experiment.

With a crossed greyscale ramp being displayed I moved the green primary control from it's normal position, which is normally pegged all the way to yellow, to the complete opposite end and did not see any difference in the ramps.

This was a quick test, so I didn't have a chance to do an actual greyscale measurement with a colorimeter but I would have expected to see some difference for such a drastic change.

Your thoughts?


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post #523 of 1936 Old 01-03-2008, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I don't have any numbers to share, only an anecdotal report. I spent quite a bit of very frustrating time on an Elite with the result I reported. However, another user reported that in the "Pure" mode this problem does not occur, a claim I have not been able to verify.

Gotcha.

I'll do a quick measurement to confirm that the CMS doesn't change the grey scale for me and report back.
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post #524 of 1936 Old 01-10-2008, 08:29 AM
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Tom or anybody else that maybe able to help me out here. btw awesome job at what you are doing here Tom.

I went through and did a basic calibration last night using a spyder2pro sensor and using HCFR (using the steps Tom described in the first post. I think the display looks pretty good. I have a few questions concerning each section. I'll start off with the first one setting brightness....

These are the steps Tom describes to do.

1. Select a target gamma. I cannot think of any reason to choose any gamma other than 2.2 or 2.5.*
2. Measure the peak output if you have not already using a 100% white window or field.
3. Display a 10% window or field.
4. Adjust the Brightness setting so that this test pattern measures as close as possible to 0.63% of peak white (2.2 gamma) or 0.32% (2.5 gamma).

Step 2 If I have not adjusted the contrast yet, how can I take a good reading off a 100% white window to properly set brightness?

I decided to set contrast first using Tom's method. I didn't exactly know how to measure peak output on a 100% white window so this is what I did.
I set my HCFR software in the display box and checked XYZ. maybe I should of checked xyY???? right next to that in the Measures box I click the play button and read the Y Column, and adjust the Brightness on the TV until I get a continuous reading of about 175. (This is an LCD TV and I am shooting for 50FL according to Tom) so 175x.29 gives me 50.75. I think white looks pretty good, they are not crushedand it seems I am on the right track?????? Am I on the right track, and reading the proper info?

Okay back to Brightness now that I have my contrast set. Gamma is set at 2.2 and I am using standard REC 709 in my HCFR setup.
I now do my 100% white measure and get 175 then x by .0063 to get my percentage which comes out to be 1.1025. I change to a 10% window and measure like .350 and proceed to adjust the brightness up. I adjust the brightness all the way up as high as it can go and I am only measuring .7 something??? Am I doing something wrong or is it just the color sensor that is not accurate down to the 10% window?

I have more questions concerning the other adjustments buts lets see how this pans out as far as answers go. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This particular tv is just a Panasonic 720P LCD unit that only has basic color tint picture and brightness settings. I have a HD1000U which I did a gray scale setup on and it really looks nice. If this sensor is not ideal for what I am trying to do what would be recommended for a home user that is still cost effective?

Thanks, Dave

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post #525 of 1936 Old 01-10-2008, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

Gotcha.

I'll do a quick measurement to confirm that the CMS doesn't change the grey scale for me and report back.

Any results? Enquiring minds want to know.

So it is worth it to calibrate the Kuro (G8) panels? Or is it a waste of time and money. Sounds like perra1 has had some good success with doing it.

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post #526 of 1936 Old 01-10-2008, 09:27 AM
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Doh! Got sidetracked and forgot to do this. Will do and will update.
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post #527 of 1936 Old 01-10-2008, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnaylor View Post

I set my HCFR software in the display box and checked XYZ. maybe I should of checked xyY????

xyY is the correct mode. Everything else sounds fine.

What does the gamma curve (logrithmic) look like in HCFR? At 2.2 gamma, the Y values should track something like this:

100: 175
90: 139
80: 107
70: 80
60: 57
50: 38
40: 23
30: 12
20: 5
10: 1.1

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post #528 of 1936 Old 01-10-2008, 11:24 AM
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Tom

Thanks for the reply! I will change my setting to xyY and re-measure everything tonight if I get a chance. I will also check the gamma curve and see what the numbers are.

So should I be using the xyY setting in HCFR when I do the color and Tint adjustment as well? I was under the impression in the XYZ setting Y was the luminance or brightness of the color. What is the difference between the two settings?

Thanks,

Dave

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post #529 of 1936 Old 01-10-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzzdoc View Post
Any results? Enquiring minds want to know.
OK, got around to doing it today.

Here are the two results. There's definitely a difference in the greyscale when measured but I honestly couldn't tell a difference by eye.

In retrospect I should have probably not moved green by so much. Whether it would have made a difference in the change in the greyscale I'm not sure.

 

HTPC.zip 1.869140625k . file
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post #530 of 1936 Old 01-10-2008, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnaylor View Post

So should I be using the xyY setting in HCFR when I do the color and Tint adjustment as well? I was under the impression in the XYZ setting Y was the luminance or brightness of the color. What is the difference between the two settings?

The Y in XYZ and xyY are the same. However, you need xy coordinates for the chromaticity diagram and most other commonly used calibration measurements.

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post #531 of 1936 Old 01-11-2008, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

xyY is the correct mode. Everything else sounds fine.

What does the gamma curve (logrithmic) look like in HCFR? At 2.2 gamma, the Y values should track something like this:

100: 175
90: 139
80: 107
70: 80
60: 57
50: 38
40: 23
30: 12
20: 5
10: 1.1

Tom

Here is what I came up with last night. I changed the Temp to Warm in my TV
I checked my Color temp histogram in HCFR and that brought it down from 8000K right in line with 6500. Doing that made all the difference in the world. Keeping in mind this is just a HD 720P LCD TV with just standard adjustments available to me. I think it looks great.
Having the color closer to 6500 allowed me to get my brightness setting up from .3 to the target point of 1.1 with a 10% window. I'm not sure why that is but I was reading the 10% window when I switched it over from Standard to Warm and the number jumped up considerably.

Gamma curve My top and bottom numbers are right on but the middle numbers are off compared to yours Tom. I'm not sure how close they are suppose to be or if that was just an approximation.

100: 176
90: 173
80: 137
70: 101
60: 72
50: 47
40: 28
30: 13
20: 4.7
10: 1.1
0: .8

Gray scale: I have no way of adjusting unless I had the service menu available to me.
I did a gray scale tracking across the board to see how close it was after I went through all my setups, and this is what I got

x from 30 to 100 lowest number was .311 highest was .314 shooting for .313
y from 30 to 100 lowest number was .325 highest was .330 shooting for .329

looking at the RGB histogram after doing my grayscale readings the chart looks perfect at 30 to 100. red and green are really close, but blue starts at 180% and dips quickly until it gets to 30% and then is almost perfect across the board. Probably not much I can do without any more adjustments available to me.

I also made an excel spreadsheet using your numbers Tom. It made going through setup very easily. You select your display type from a drop down menu then the spreadsheet calculates what you should be shooting for as far as all your measurements go for brightness, contrast, color & tint. It almost makes it fool proof, and gave me a quick window I could switch to behind HCFR, and not have to use a calculator in the dark to figure out all the percentages you mention.

I tried to attach it but it wont let me attach Excel Files. I guess they think it could be a security risk. If you are interested in seeing it I could email you a copy directly just PM me.

Thanks for your help Tom

Regards,

Dave

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post #532 of 1936 Old 01-13-2008, 10:27 AM
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DPnaylor -

you can always ZIP the file and post it..

Rich L

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post #533 of 1936 Old 01-15-2008, 08:46 AM
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Okay, got a problem I ran into. I have a friend of mine that has a Plasma TV. What setting would I use in the HCFR software for my calculations. LCD, CRT, Would I use the filter on the front of the Spyder2 pro for a plasma??

This is what I tried. At first I did a continuous reading on a 100% white screen to see what the color temp of his set was. Cool was 8k, Standard was 7k and Warm was 5k or something. Nothing was close to D65..... It had a user setting for color so I went into that. All it has is 3 sliders for Red, Green, and Blue, How would I go about measuring and adjusting those 3 sliders? If I did a gray scale reading, its not like there is a brightness and contrast slider for each color. Would I do a 50% window and adjust the sliders to that?? I would think if I made an adjustment to the slider say and bumped red up a bit it would ultimately affect the Red contrast level at say 10% 20%, and 30%.
Any tips. This is a 60" LG Plasma screen. I also set the color using the method Tom recommended, and it looked very over saturated. It could be I have CRT selected when it should be LCD, or maybe I cant do Plasma with this sensor/software??? HELP

Thanks!

Dave

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post #534 of 1936 Old 01-15-2008, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnaylor View Post

It had a user setting for color so I went into that. All it has is 3 sliders for Red, Green, and Blue, How would I go about measuring and adjusting those 3 sliders? If I did a gray scale reading, its not like there is a brightness and contrast slider for each color. Would I do a 50% window and adjust the sliders to that?? I would think if I made an adjustment to the slider say and bumped red up a bit it would ultimately affect the Red contrast level at say 10% 20%, and 30%.
Any tips. This is a 60" LG Plasma screen. I also set the color using the method Tom recommended, and it looked very over saturated. It could be I have CRT selected when it should be LCD, or maybe I cant do Plasma with this sensor/software??? HELP

One of the points I had hoped to get across with the tutorial was that one simply cannot refer to the "color" on a display, because there are different aspects of color performance that need to be adjusted separately.

Thus, when you refer to "a user setting for color. . .[that has] 3 sliders for Red, Green, and Blue" I can't really give any advice because I can't tell from your description what type of color adjustments these are. Gray scale, color decoding, gamut perhaps? If you don't know what they do, just measure a white test pattern and then a red test pattern in real time as you adjust the red slider. What changes?

If you used the method I described, the plasma will not look oversaturated.

Finally, I have recommended in this thread and elsewhere about a gazillion times now against using the Spyder2 probe, but I suppose because of low cost people keep using it anyway. You get what you pay for.

Tom Huffman
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post #535 of 1936 Old 01-15-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Finally, I have recommended in this thread and elsewhere about a gazillion times now against using the Spyder2 probe, but I suppose because of low cost people keep using it anyway. You get what you pay for.

Somebody should start a sticky where we can document probes and their abilities...

Mark

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My kit: 15' 2.35:1 Screen Research CP2 4-way mask, Sony vw1000es, Lumagen 2144, Meridian 861/621/7x5500/2xSW5500

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post #536 of 1936 Old 01-15-2008, 11:20 AM
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I think Tom's meter shootout thread does that.
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post #537 of 1936 Old 01-15-2008, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jvincent View Post

I think Tom's meter shootout thread does that.

Yep.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=958099

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
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post #538 of 1936 Old 01-16-2008, 08:57 AM
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I think I will replace my spyder 2pro. Where can I find the i1-pro? I don't even see it listed on the X-rite website. Did they change the name? All I can find info on is the i1 display 2 pro... Is this acceptable?

Dave N
Joppa, Maryland
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post #539 of 1936 Old 01-16-2008, 09:39 AM
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I think I will replace my spyder 2pro. Where can I find the i1-pro? I don't even see it listed on the X-rite website. Did they change the name? All I can find info on is the i1 display 2 pro... Is this acceptable?

A new i1 pro is probably going to run you a minimum of $700 (http://calman.tv/html/contact.html OEM version with no software) unless someone comes through with a link to better deal. You can find the i1 pro elsewhere, but it comes in various bundles with different software and periphral options (and costs more). There is also ebay, but when I was looking there, it was running about $400 to $500 for a used i1 pro.

The display 2 you were looking at is considered more accurate then the spyder 2. Short of spending $700 for an i1 pro, it's probably the best option. If you look around, you can probably find a display 2 for around $120.
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post #540 of 1936 Old 01-16-2008, 10:05 AM
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Sperron

Thanks. I didn't realize that the cost of the i1pro was that much. I will probably go with the Display 2. This is frustrating. I was hoping the spyder2 pro that I have was going to be at least better than my eye as far as calibrations go. It seemed very accurate with my LCD TV. After doing my friends Plasma tv it didn't come out the same.
Reading Toms Sensor shootout. It seems it is probably the sensor itself. I should of also Used the LCD setting with the filter instead of the CRT setting with no filter. I'm sure that screwed my measurements up more.

Thanks for the tip!

Dave N
Joppa, Maryland
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Reply Display Calibration

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X Rite Eodis3 I1display Pro , X Rite Cmundis Colormunki Display , X Rite Eye One Display Lt , Calman 4 0 Calibration Software Home License , Aemc Ca813 Peak Function Lightmeter 200 000 Lux Range 0 01 Lux Resolution 3 Accuracy
Gear in this thread - Ca813 by PriceGrabber.com

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