Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS (updated and enhanced) - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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Old 01-16-2008, 11:10 AM
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By the way if anybody wants to try out the spread sheet I did I would be interested to see what anybody thinks. I think the formulas all work out good. It is just a glorified excel spreadsheet that uses Toms numbers depending on what display you select. I think everything is correct. I am a beginner at this so if something isn't right please let me know.

UPDATE: SEE POST 574 FOR THE LATEST SPREADSHEET R3

Dave

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Old 01-17-2008, 02:44 PM
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Hi Tom,
in a couple days I'll go through my very first attempt to calibrate my TV set. I'll receive tomorrow my I1 Display LT sensor and hope to get through with HCFR + DVE and your patterns. I have some questions, though:

Does your patterns work on PAL systems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

[*]Select a target gamma. I cannot think of any reason to choose any gamma other than 2.2 or 2.5.*

My TV has 3 fixed gamma choices (1,2,3) and also color space (1 - Vivid,2 - Standard). Is there a way to check what is the right one?


Quote:


You can use 100% intensity windows if you prefer. Just make sure that whichever you use, you use the SAME intensity window for white AND red.

Should I always aim to 21% of white's Y?
Quote:


[*]Adjust the RGB Contrast controls until RGB is balanced at 90 IRE or until you read 0.313, 0.329.

My TV has 3 controls for R,G,B (low) and R,G,B (high). What criteria should I use to go for the proper grayscale? Change RGB values with same +/- (like R+1,G+1,B+1) or experimenting increasing/decreasing one color and then switch to the next one, then the next one, then back to the first one and so on?

Quote:


A full-featured CMS will have controls for Saturation, Tint, and Value (sometimes referred to as Lightness or Brightness) of RGBCYM.

My TV has controls for
R = (decrease closer to magenta, increase closer to yellow)
Y = (decrease closer to red, increase closer to green)
G = (decrease closer to yellow, increase closer to cyan)
C = (decrease closer to green, increase closer to blue)
B = (decrease closer to cyan, increase closer to magenta)
M = (decrease closer to blue, increase closer to red)

Should I use those for color decoding? With multiple attempts?

Quote:


Green tint adjusts the hue of yellow. Use these as enhancements to the main Color/Tint control to achieve virtually perfect color decoding.

My TV has a Tint control wereas a decrease means "skin tones become purplish", an increase means "skin tones become greenish". Should I use this control or simply ignore it?

Quote:


[*]Adjust the Saturation and Hue controls in the CMS until measured Red lines up as close as possible to the reference point for Red on the CIE chart

My TV missese hue and saturation controls...what could i Try?

Last question: instead of copying values (once got the proper ones) from one input (DVD) to another input (satellite) on my TV, can I make anything good out of my satellite provider's test pattern , very similar to this one:



Thanks
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnaylor View Post

By the way if anybody wants to try out the spread sheet I did I would be interested to see what anybody thinks. I think the formulas all work out good. It is just a glorified excel spreadsheet that uses Toms numbers depending on what display you select. I think everything is correct. I am a beginner at this so if something isn't right please let me know.

Dave

Maybe you could add an option to select Gamma 2.2 or 2.5 to make it more complete?
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Old 01-18-2008, 06:02 AM
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rickardl

I can look into adding that in. This was just something I put together in a few hours the other day. I am not sure how the multipliers and percentages would change though. Tom may be able to help us out with that.
I did everything using 100% windows since I only have the Avia disk. and it only has 100% patterns that I could find on it.

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Old 01-18-2008, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnaylor View Post

rickardl

I can look into adding that in. This was just something I put together in a few hours the other day. I am not sure how the multipliers and percentages would change though. Tom may be able to help us out with that.
I did everything using 100% windows since I only have the Avia disk. and it only has 100% patterns that I could find on it.

Well, I think it is only the Brightness setting:

Adjust the Brightness setting so that this test pattern measures as close as possible to 0.63% of peak white (2.2 gamma) or 0.32% (2.5 gamma).
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnaylor View Post

By the way if anybody wants to try out the spread sheet I did I would be interested to see what anybody thinks

Dave I was just looking at your spreadsheet as a useful resource for a quick setup. I was also thing about using it for satellite input calibration.

It looks like it's impossible to spot out from the satellite test pattern shown in this post the following:
- 10% black and grayscale adjust.

The pattern has some 6 gray-to-black areas but probably the grow in a 16,6 increments instead of 10.... how could I try to convert the 10-based IRE increments, trying to use that pattern for the grayscale?

I mean if someone invented that pattern it means it can be used in some way.....
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Old 01-18-2008, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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There is more than one way to calculate gamma, but the easiest way, and the way I use, is to make the target gamma an exponent of the level of stimulus.

So, say the 100% output yields 135 nits and 2.2 is your target gamma. The output at 70% stimulus would be .7 to the 2.2 power, or 45.6%. Then just multiply 135 by .456 to get the output you should have at that level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpnaylor View Post

rickardl

I can look into adding that in. This was just something I put together in a few hours the other day. I am not sure how the multipliers and percentages would change though. Tom may be able to help us out with that.
I did everything using 100% windows since I only have the Avia disk. and it only has 100% patterns that I could find on it.


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Old 01-18-2008, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Does your patterns work on PAL systems?

The patterns are fine, but the DVD is authored according to NTSC standards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

My TV has 3 fixed gamma choices (1,2,3) and also color space (1 - Vivid,2 - Standard). Is there a way to check what is the right one?

Just measure each preset and see which has the best gamma curve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Should I always aim to 21% of white's Y?

No. Just when checking red.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

My TV has 3 controls for R,G,B (low) and R,G,B (high). What criteria should I use to go for the proper grayscale? Change RGB values with same +/- (like R+1,G+1,B+1) or experimenting increasing/decreasing one color and then switch to the next one, then the next one, then back to the first one and so on?

You measure white and adjust these controls accordingly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

My TV has controls for
R = (decrease closer to magenta, increase closer to yellow)
Y = (decrease closer to red, increase closer to green)
G = (decrease closer to yellow, increase closer to cyan)
C = (decrease closer to green, increase closer to blue)
B = (decrease closer to cyan, increase closer to magenta)
M = (decrease closer to blue, increase closer to red)

Should I use those for color decoding? With multiple attempts?

These look like Hue controls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

My TV has a Tint control wereas a decrease means "skin tones become purplish", an increase means "skin tones become greenish". Should I use this control or simply ignore it?

Measure the results. See if it helps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

My TV missese hue and saturation controls...what could i Try?

As I said, itm looks like it does have hue controls. If it doesn't have an adjustment, then it doesn't. You are out of luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Last question: instead of copying values (once got the proper ones) from one input (DVD) to another input (satellite) on my TV, can I make anything good out of my satellite provider's test pattern , very similar to this one:

Maybe. I haven't seen the patterns.

Tom Huffman
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Dave I was just looking at your spreadsheet as a useful resource for a quick setup. I was also thing about using it for satellite input calibration.

It looks like it's impossible to spot out from the satellite test pattern shown in this post the following:
- 10% black and grayscale adjust.

The pattern has some 6 gray-to-black areas but probably the grow in a 16,6 increments instead of 10.... how could I try to convert the 10-based IRE increments, trying to use that pattern for the grayscale?

I mean if someone invented that pattern it means it can be used in some way.....

I think the best thing to do would be to invest in an AVIA calibration disk. That will give you all the test patterns and windows you will need for color setting, grayscale adjustment, and you can even setup your audio as well with it.

Dave N
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Maybe you could add an option to select Gamma 2.2 or 2.5 to make it more complete?

I can see if I have some free time to add the 2.5 Gamma changes over the weekend to the spreadsheet. I can add another drop down box with a choice for 2.2 or 2.5 and use the two multipliers .63%, and .32%.

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Old 01-19-2008, 03:39 AM
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Tom, thanks for your answers, I'm investigating and will post my results when more confident about accuracy of my testing. Attaching the pattern for your thoughts.

dpnaylor I own a DVE DVD disc PAL region, but as the continuos debate shows, it looks like it would be better to have on opportunity to calibrate each input accordingly to it's signal insetad of copying DVD results everywhere... thats why I was insisting on the TV pattern. Certainly for DVD cal. I will use DVE.

Tom's patterns (I've played the DVD on my laptop) look more straightful but as they're encoded for a NTSC zone I'll have to use DVE and it's horrible menus
LL
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:06 AM
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How to measure and calculate contrast in HCFR, to get the 15fl ?
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Old 01-19-2008, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachmat-d View Post

How to measure and calculate contrast in HCFR, to get the 15fl ?

From TomHuffman's calibration guide:

Quote:
If you use HCFR, you can determine fL by multiplying the peak output (100% Y) by 0.29.

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Old 01-19-2008, 10:04 AM
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I assume, to get the Y value in the 100 IRE ?
I have the value of Y ( 19.016 ) and multiply by 0.29 is only 5FL .
It is very dim. Is it correct ?
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Old 01-19-2008, 10:16 AM
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Back again from little attempts.

I definitelly have big problems when reading with the sensor, sometimes when moving from one color to another in continuos mode, nothing happens, as if the sensor is not reading anymore... dunno if it is the sensor or HCFR or Windows vista....it's impossible to set color amount using the 100% red pattern. Too high.

Dunno if the satellite pattern is too bulky to be used... maybe I should go for a proper DVD cal. with DVE patterns and see what happens then compare results with satellite's calibration.

When dealing with hue I'm unable to push green in it's proper position on the CIE graph....and very funny notice that yellow looks out of the white line going from red to green... how is it possible?

I'm attaching before/after graphs (remember it is a first ever cal. with Sky's satellite's pattern, using SCART/SD input)
LL
LL
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

it's impossible to set color amount using the 100% red pattern. Too high.

No, it isn't. I'll bet that you are comparing a 75% pattern with a 100% pattern. That's the only scenario in which this would appear too high.

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Old 01-19-2008, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rachmat-d View Post

I assume, to get the Y value in the 100 IRE ?
I have the value of Y ( 19.016 ) and multiply by 0.29 is only 5FL .
It is very dim. Is it correct ?

This only really works with direct view/flat panel. For front projection, you really need to take illuminance readings directly from the lamp. I'll update the tutorial to explain this.

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Old 01-19-2008, 12:06 PM
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Ok Tom,
I wil wait for update.
Thanks.
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Old 01-19-2008, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The update is complete.

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Old 01-19-2008, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

No, it isn't. I'll bet that you are comparing a 75% pattern with a 100% pattern. That's the only scenario in which this would appear too high.

Sorry, I've messed up what I wanted to say: the problem is that to set the color control at the point where Red measures closest to 21% of the white reading, I have to push color control to about the maximum value (too high, imagine color set to maximum value)

Edit: I've read that eyeone LT has some glitches when reading reds from plasmas....

Edit 2: I've also just read about D-Nice complaining about Kuro's color spaces and how Red and Green, in "color space 1"will never fit into the cie chart....maybe I should have a go with "color space 2" and see what happens....
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:07 PM
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Some thoughts & questions for Tom!

I'm very excited cause once changed the color space it looks like I've tweaked correctly my TV and reached the optimal CIE values!!! Arrr......how do I know I'm on the right way? Is there a way to be sure about a correct calibration, knowing that it has been used an entry level tool like Display LT?

Moreover:

1) In your opinion, does it make sense at all to try to calibrate satellite input using the test channel/pattern?

2) Is there an effective way to calibrate using that pattern, that is missing proper grayscales? Unfortunatelly your instructions demand some 10 IRE and 90 IRE areas that are missing in the satellite pattern... how to bypass that limitation?

3) As I've wrote in the previous message I have some difficulties when reading red to set proper color amount, due to quite low Y values on red... how can I solve this problem? Could it be a sensor limitation/damage?( Display LT + HCFR on a plasma screen)

4) Back to satellite: my provider (SKY Italy/Murdoch) broadcasts SD/HD contents within the same decoder; I'm currently using two different TV inputs from the decoder for SD/HD contents, each one with different settings; now to the question: as the test channel/pattern is broadcasted with a SD/PAL signal, does it makes any sense to calibrate the TV input used for HD contents (that would require a rec.-something reference), using such a signal/pattern?
This tought brings us to another consideration: what if we use a DVD player with HD capabilities? We're probabily using the same cable/input to connect the player to the TV set....and should we calibrate that input using the SD patterns/reference or the HD???

Hope not bothering too much with all those questions, but probabily the whole community will benefit from your answers!
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Old 01-20-2008, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Just use the Continuous read mode for the levels you do have and use whatever gray scale controls the display provides to adjust.

I can't comment on the details of satellite test patterns I've never seen.

The only way to check your work is with your eyes or a much more expensive reference grade sensor.

Sounds like your display has a large error in red and/or a non-functional Color control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

I'm very excited cause once changed the color space it looks like I've tweaked correctly my TV and reached the optimal CIE values!!! Arrr......how do I know I'm on the right way? Is there a way to be sure about a correct calibration, knowing that it has been used an entry level tool like Display LT?

Moreover:

1) In your opinion, does it make sense at all to try to calibrate satellite input using the test channel/pattern?

2) Is there an effective way to calibrate using that pattern, that is missing proper grayscales? Unfortunatelly your instructions demand some 10 IRE and 90 IRE areas that are missing in the satellite pattern... how to bypass that limitation?

3) As I've wrote in the previous message I have some difficulties when reading red to set proper color amount, due to quite low Y values on red... how can I solve this problem? Could it be a sensor limitation/damage?( Display LT + HCFR on a plasma screen)

4) Back to satellite: my provider (SKY Italy/Murdoch) broadcasts SD/HD contents within the same decoder; I'm currently using two different TV inputs from the decoder for SD/HD contents, each one with different settings; now to the question: as the test channel/pattern is broadcasted with a SD/PAL signal, does it makes any sense to calibrate the TV input used for HD contents (that would require a rec.-something reference), using such a signal/pattern?
This tought brings us to another consideration: what if we use a DVD player with HD capabilities? We're probabily using the same cable/input to connect the player to the TV set....and should we calibrate that input using the SD patterns/reference or the HD???

Hope not bothering too much with all those questions, but probabily the whole community will benefit from your answers!


Tom Huffman
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Sorry, I've messed up what I wanted to say: the problem is that to set the color control at the point where Red measures closest to 21% of the white reading, I have to push color control to about the maximum value (too high, imagine color set to maximum value)

Edit: I've read that eyeone LT has some glitches when reading reds from plasmas....

Edit 2: I've also just read about D-Nice complaining about Kuro's color spaces and how Red and Green, in "color space 1"will never fit into the cie chart....maybe I should have a go with "color space 2" and see what happens....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

No, it isn't. I'll bet that you are comparing a 75% pattern with a 100% pattern. That's the only scenario in which this would appear too high.

I made the same experience, it could be that I used the wrong window patterns.
On the DVD linked from the first post, what Title and chapter numbers show
a 75% White and 75% Red Window?
Any chance of enhancing it with a small text in one corner, labelling the pattern?
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Sounds like your display has a large error in red and/or a non-functional Color control.

Couldn't be the sensor having problems reading reds?

About the pattern: I'll PM to you a screenshot
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:36 AM
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I'm posting here the values obtained with my first attempts done on my Pioneer PDP 508XD (Elite for US).

- HCFR + X-rite Display LT sensor under Windows Vista
- Satellite pattern SD/PAL, using a SCART cable
- Followed Tom's sequence, using Dave's spreadsheet for calculations, with some limitations due to pattern constrains: particullarly I had to set color amount using my eyes because the sensor was reading quite a low red Y and couldn't reach the target Y without crushing colors. Also brightness has been set to a tipical value for my TV set because a 10 IRE pattern is missing.

I did my first attempts in a "color space 1" (it's a TV setting) domain, but as I couldn't get red and green into the CIE chart, I've switched to "color space 2" getting better results.

Attempts 01 & 02 are in "color space 1" and 03 & 04 in "color space 2". Attempt 03 it's a "before CMS", but probabily getting benefits from 01 & 02.

Last CIE charts shows some problems with red and yellow. As I had to apporximate color amount and brightness I'm wondering if wrong settings of the above can change to position of red and yellow on the chart.

One strange think is how the yellow measurement is outside of the triangle.... how is it possible?

The pattern used (click on thumbs to enlarge)



CIE charts, before/after in "color space 1"



CIE charts, before/after in "color space 2"



Attaching CHC files and awaiting for your comments

 

HCFR.zip 11.2001953125k . file
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Old 01-21-2008, 06:35 AM
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Blutarsky

I had the same problem when setting color on my friends Plasma TV. I think it has to be a setting or something in HCFR. I used the CRT setting without the filter on my spyder2 pro. Yes I realize now there maybe an issue with my sensor, but maybe thats not the case if your having the same problem I was. I wouldnt think it could be off that bad. The sensor worked great to setup my LCD TV.. what setting do you have HCFR on. Eye one display CRT or LCD?? I think for plasma your suppose to be using the LCD setting. Can anyone confirm this. I think it is at least true for the spyder2 sensor.

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Old 01-21-2008, 07:09 AM
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I had to go for LCD...
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:30 AM
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can someone help me ?
What is wrong with this calibration ?
I can get good result with 0- 40 Ire.
LL
LL
LL
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:03 AM
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rachmat-d

Your gray scale doesn't look to bad. Your sensor maybe off a bit at the lower end. What are your actually numbers for x & y from 20-100?

Can you chane the gamma setting in the projector. I am not familiar with the RS1. I'm pretty sure you can..

Blutarsky: Does that mean you did use the LCD setting when taking your measurements? Hummm

Dave N
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Maybe you could add an option to select Gamma 2.2 or 2.5 to make it more complete?

I added the option for the Gamma of 2.2 or 2.5 to the spreadsheet. I also added what you should be looking for as far as a Y reading when setting up contrast. This made it much quicker to dial things in, than having to constantly enter in your Y value. Thanks for the feedback!

Dave N
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