Basic Guide to Color Calibration using a CMS (updated and enhanced) - Page 59 - AVS Forum
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post #1741 of 1936 Old 03-15-2012, 05:12 AM
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Tom what about projectors? And how far do you place your meter off the screen?

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post #1742 of 1936 Old 03-15-2012, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Even the SpectraCal test showed that the fluctuation of a UHP bulb is tiny after the first couple of minutes of turning it on, hovering between 41 and 42 nits in their example.

Regarding distance the meter should be placed from the screen, this is one of the most common questions I am asked. In one sense the correct answer is, "It doesn't matter." The reason for this is that as you pull the sensor back from the screen the intensity of the light hitting the sensor decreases. However, the size of the reading area on the screen increases. These two cancel each other out. So, it really doesn't matter how far the probe is from the screen.

However, there are some practical constraints guiding meter placement. The most important one is that you don't want the size of the measurement area to be larger than the test pattern. This is especially important if you use window patterns. It makes getting a good aim point harder. For this reason, I generally recommend using full field test patterns for front projectors.

You also don't want the meter reading its own shadow, so you have to angle the meter a little. For high gain screens, such as the HP High Power, this is a problem because they color shift off axis. So you have to be very careful with screens like this to keep the angle as small as possible.

SMPTE recommends taking readings from the viewing position, but that will not be practical for most consumer probes. You need a professional tool with a good aiming system and narrow viewing angle for this. Readings from a couple of feet away should be fine in most cases.

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Originally Posted by breadvan View Post

Tom what about projectors? And how far do you place your meter off the screen?


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post #1743 of 1936 Old 03-15-2012, 12:42 PM
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I have posted this in other places but will do it again since it really does work work with the HP 2.8 screen.

Obviously not everyone has their projector table mounted so please just use this as a guide.

I place the meter directly over the projector about 6" above (table mount) this is just below my eye level when seated. If it is shelf mounted then just under it so you have no shadow to deal with.

I then put up a pattern 80% or higher is fine.
Do a continuous read and look at the gray scale. You want to adjust the angle of the meter so red in the RGB mix is at it's lowest and the luminous is at it's highest. You will find very small amount of movement are required.

The reason you look at red is because the screen shifts red off angle so by adjusting the meter so the red is at it's lowest you will be as on axis as you can possibly be.

You will find that if you sit on axis this will provide the best possible calibrated image. Also, when you come back to tweak in 500 or 1000 hours, you will know that you are in exactly the same spot.

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post #1744 of 1936 Old 03-31-2012, 03:34 AM
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post #1745 of 1936 Old 03-31-2012, 04:36 AM
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I suspect its got to do with the age of your TV, showing signs of retirement..
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post #1746 of 1936 Old 04-26-2012, 10:39 AM
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Tom,

I just found your topic. Very good indeed.

Please I just have a comment/question:

I have my display calibrated (Panasonic GT30 brazilian model) using Gamma 2.45 and found it more pleasure and good for the eyes than the 2.2-2.35 range. My room is fully dark. Source is blu-ray movies only.
I have contrast calibrated at default (50) and brightness at default either (0). Color and Tint have a few notches below from the default point (calibrated using a colorimeter - math graphics and not using the blue filter). Sharpness down to the minimum (0).
Grayscale is linear (RGB at 100% with Delta average under 4).

Now my question is... Once I had Gamma = 2.35 I didn't have the "pop" effect that I have now when using 2.45 value. Would I be running "off" using that Gamma valuefor my specific environment? I see it's been a long debate debate between Gamma 2.2 and 2.5 tough.... I just want to have my picture similar as the theater.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and best regards,

Marcos
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post #1747 of 1936 Old 04-26-2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebox View Post

Tom,

I just found your topic. Very good indeed.

Please I just have a comment/question:

I have my display calibrated (Panasonic GT30 brazilian model) using Gamma 2.45 and found it more pleasure and good for the eyes than the 2.2-2.35 range. My room is fully dark. Source is blu-ray movies only.
I have contrast calibrated at default (50) and brightness at default either (0). Color and Tint have a few notches below from the default point (calibrated using a colorimeter - math graphics and not using the blue filter). Sharpness down to the minimum (0).
Grayscale is linear (RGB at 100% with Delta average under 4).

Now my question is... Once I had Gamma = 2.35 I didn't have the "pop" effect that I have now when using 2.45 value. Would I be running "off" using that Gamma valuefor my specific environment? I see it's been a long debate debate between Gamma 2.2 and 2.5 tough.... I just want to have my picture similar as the theater.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and best regards,

Marcos

What is the black level and peak white of this TV at current settings (Y readings in fL for 0% black and 100% white)?

The real (measured) contrast ratio of the TV will determine whether you can use very dark gammas without crushing shadow details together near black.


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post #1748 of 1936 Old 04-26-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

What is the black level and peak white of this TV at current settings (Y readings in fL for 0% black and 100% white)?

The real (measured) contrast ratio of the TV will determine whether you can use very dark gammas without crushing shadow details together near black.

Hi PlasmaPZ80U !

Sorry- I should mentioned that. The contrast ratio mensured was about 3000:1 (not sure on top of my head now). Black Level was 0.02 cd/m2 and Luminance (peak white) was about 20 ftl (70-80 cd/m2).
I used Spears & Munsil, DVE and AVSHD 709 calibration disks.

Thanks!
Marcos
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post #1749 of 1936 Old 04-26-2012, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebox View Post

Hi PlasmaPZ80U !

Sorry- I should mentioned that. The contrast ratio mensured was about 3000:1 (not sure on top of my head now). Black Level was 0.02 cd/m2 and Luminance (peak white) was about 20 ftl (70-80 cd/m2).
I used Spears & Munsil, DVE and AVSHD 709 calibration disks.

Thanks!
Marcos

seems like you probably have enough CR to avoid losing shadow detail with the higher gammas but I personally wouldn't go past 2.35-2.4 and something in the 2.2 to 2.3 range might be best

ultimately, there is no one correct answer and you should use whichever gamma looks best to you within the recommended range (which probably is between 2.2 and 2.4 for a dim or dark room)


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post #1750 of 1936 Old 04-26-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebox View Post

Hi PlasmaPZ80U !

Sorry- I should mentioned that. The contrast ratio mensured was about 3000:1 (not sure on top of my head now). Black Level was 0.02 cd/m2 and Luminance (peak white) was about 20 ftl (70-80 cd/m2).
I used Spears & Munsil, DVE and AVSHD 709 calibration disks.

Thanks!
Marcos

Given a peak white of 75 cd/m^2 and gamma 2.4 you will hit your mll floor at video code 23 so if you were to set your black level there you would crush levels 17-23. Most people don't calibrate that way though and if you follow the typical method of getting level 17 to be the first level to show some response the effect is actually to lower near-black gamma. So if you follow this method for setting brightness you don't have to worry about crushing near-black levels and if 2.4 is appropriate for your viewing environment you should be ok.

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post #1751 of 1936 Old 04-26-2012, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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In other words, you cannot run a 2.45 gamma at the low end without crushing black.

Also, 70 nits is also a much lower peak output than I would generally hope to see on a flat panel. SMPTE recommends 120. You might try higher light output with a lower gamma and see if you can't get the pop you are looking for.

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post #1752 of 1936 Old 04-27-2012, 04:57 AM
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The instructions and images here may help:

http://www.lightillusion.com/display_calibration.html

This is an example of the process used to set initial display set-ups for professional post-production operations, where films and TV programs are graded, etc.

Film and TV post-production is Light Illusion's main market area, and we have calibrated - both directly and through our systems - many of the major post facilities around the world.

The initial display set-up outlined on the above page is a key step in accurate calibration.
The following profiling and LUT management finalises the calibration as accurately as possible.

The test images use in the above process can be downloaded FOC from the above link. Then follow the associated instructions.

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post #1753 of 1936 Old 04-27-2012, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

seems like you probably have enough CR to avoid losing shadow detail with the higher gammas but I personally wouldn't go past 2.35-2.4 and something in the 2.2 to 2.3 range might be best

ultimately, there is no one correct answer and you should use whichever gamma looks best to you within the recommended range (which probably is between 2.2 and 2.4 for a dim or dark room)

Right, thank you.
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post #1754 of 1936 Old 04-27-2012, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Given a peak white of 75 cd/m^2 and gamma 2.4 you will hit your mll floor at video code 23 so if you were to set your black level there you would crush levels 17-23. Most people don't calibrate that way though and if you follow the typical method of getting level 17 to be the first level to show some response the effect is actually to lower near-black gamma. So if you follow this method for setting brightness you don't have to worry about crushing near-black levels and if 2.4 is appropriate for your viewing environment you should be ok.

Yes, I'm not crushing any blacks starting at level 17. Gamma 2.45 is very pleasant to me now.
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post #1755 of 1936 Old 04-27-2012, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

In other words, you cannot run a 2.45 gamma at the low end without crushing black.

Also, 70 nits is also a much lower peak output than I would generally hope to see on a flat panel. SMPTE recommends 120. You might try higher light output with a lower gamma and see if you can't get the pop you are looking for.

Actually Panasonic Plasmas can`t go beyond 100 nits (when using THX, Pro or Cinema mode). I still think it's accurate a peak white of 70 nits based in a darker room. Punching Gamma to 2-2.1 makes the picture washed out, unfortunely.
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post #1756 of 1936 Old 04-27-2012, 08:34 AM
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Thanks Steve, I'll give a try.
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post #1757 of 1936 Old 04-27-2012, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebox View Post

Yes, I'm not crushing any blacks starting at level 17. Gamma 2.45 is very pleasant to me now.

one thing worth mentioning is that while the black clipping pattern may show 17 flashing [if your contrast ratio/dynamic range is not sufficient for a 2.45 gamma], the levels near black will get compressed together and will end up all looking the same, effectively creating black crush

I'm not saying that is happening on your set, just that it's something to watch out for when using very dark gammas. If you are happy with the shadow detail while using 2.45 gamma, then I wouldn't worry about it.


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post #1758 of 1936 Old 04-28-2012, 03:37 AM
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Please do watch out for Plasma 'power save' operation when measuring DR (white point specifically). If using full screen patches the power save mode will cut-in, and reduce the power to the screen, dropping the measured output, to a point that 100% white can be lower than 75% white...

You need to use small patch sizes, about a 6th screen area to avoid this.

But, if viewing real material that is very bright overall this effect will still occur - it can't be turned off on any plasma.

One client who was using plasmas to grade material suffered this on a project that was a wildlife program shot in a desert.

The end result looked very different on lcd (or any non-plasma) displays, as during grading the power save mode kept kicking in, causing some serious problems.

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post #1759 of 1936 Old 04-28-2012, 03:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebox View Post

Actually Panasonic Plasmas can`t go beyond 100 nits (when using THX, Pro or Cinema mode). I still think it's accurate a peak white of 70 nits based in a darker room. Punching Gamma to 2-2.1 makes the picture washed out, unfortunely.

Why throw away 30% of the panel's output? Yes, I suspect a gamma of 2-2.1 would be suboptimal.

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post #1760 of 1936 Old 04-28-2012, 04:30 AM
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@Tom, can you comment on this set of measurements? I don't believe the numbers for i1pro unit variability (dE2000 = 2) or mean accuracy (dE2000 = 4.4). Based on specifications and what I've read this is a factor of 4 greater than what these probes should provide.

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post #1761 of 1936 Old 04-28-2012, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

@Tom, can you comment on this set of measurements? I don't believe the numbers for i1pro unit variability (dE2000 = 2) or mean accuracy (dE2000 = 4.4). Based on specifications and what I've read this is a factor of 4 greater than what these probes should provide.

This is roughly consistent with what I have seen, especially on wide gamut flat panels. They do better measuring off projector screens. A CIEDE2000 variation of 4.4 would be about a 0.006 deviation from a reference instrument, and an i1Pro can easily be that far off. Also, like colorimeters, they degrade with age, so unit-to-unit variation of 2 could easily occur comparing older units with newer ones.

My own view is that the virtues of the i1Pro have been somewhat oversold. I would much rather use a tristimulus that has been corrected by a reference instrument.

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post #1762 of 1936 Old 04-29-2012, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I would much rather use a tristimulus that has been corrected by a reference instrument.

Wouldn't we all... at least until we woke up from that dream

The real question here is would you rather use an i1Display Pro (i1Pro corrected) or just the i1Display Pro by itself?

As I recall others have mentioned that they have yet to see/measure an out of spec i1Pro (other than one that was plain broken inside and must have been dropped). But if the Display Pro is claimed to be more accurate (at least initially when new) which instrument should we trust?

Maybe we should all be using the i1Display Pro to correct our non-reference spectros.

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post #1763 of 1936 Old 04-29-2012, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

This is roughly consistent with what I have seen, especially on wide gamut flat panels. They do better measuring off projector screens. A CIEDE2000 variation of 4.4 would be about a 0.006 deviation from a reference instrument, and an i1Pro can easily be that far off. Also, like colorimeters, they degrade with age, so unit-to-unit variation of 2 could easily occur comparing older units with newer ones.

My own view is that the virtues of the i1Pro have been somewhat oversold. I would much rather use a tristimulus that has been corrected by a reference instrument.

Thanks for the feedback. Have you seen 0.006 deviations between the i1pro and reference instruments on plasmas where field-of-view matching is less critical? Also, wouldn't that kind of shift be flagged in the i1pro's white tile calibration check?

Regarding a reference corrected i1d3, how well does it perform over the entire gamut after a 6-point based correction (again for plasmas)?

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post #1764 of 1936 Old 04-29-2012, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks for the feedback. Have you seen 0.006 deviations between the i1pro and reference instruments on plasmas where field-of-view matching is less critical? Also, wouldn't that kind of shift be flagged in the i1pro's white tile calibration check?

Regarding a reference corrected i1d3, how well does it perform over the entire gamut after a 6-point based correction (again for plasmas)?

I have recently measured a 0.003-0.004 deviation on a brand new i1Pro. For an older one, 0.006 would be unsurprising. No, this is a function of the i1Pro's 10nm resolution.

It performs quite well.

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post #1765 of 1936 Old 04-29-2012, 08:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

The real question here is would you rather use an i1Display Pro (i1Pro corrected) or just the i1Display Pro by itself?

Unclear. There is some unit-to-unit variation with the D3. Some of them are incredibly accurate out of the box and would not benefit from an i1Pro correction. Others would. On average, probably yes.

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post #1766 of 1936 Old 04-29-2012, 10:28 PM
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What's the commont name for Color 'Lightness' Control ? Adjusting the main Color 'll change Luminance and also Saturation, I have 2 HDTVs with different CMS but none of them have specific Lightness controls.
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post #1767 of 1936 Old 04-30-2012, 12:13 AM
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What's the common name for Color 'Lightness' Control ?

"Gain", "Color," perhaps "Intensity"

If you have a true 3D CMS, one control will be labeled "tint" or "hue," one will be labeled "Saturation," and the other will be your "Lightness" control.

If you have a 2D CMS, there will probably be one control for "tint" or "hue" and the other one will mostly likely affect both saturation and "lightness."
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post #1768 of 1936 Old 04-30-2012, 08:53 AM
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What's the commont name for Color 'Lightness' Control ? Adjusting the main Color 'll change Luminance and also Saturation, I have 2 HDTVs with different CMS but none of them have specific Lightness controls.

which brands and models? Samsung uses a RGB interface, while most others use HSL.


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Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

which brands and models? Samsung uses a RGB interface ...

Good grief ... we wouldn't want the controls to make sense ... or be easy to use.

Suddenly, I'm appreciating our "crippled" 2.5D LG's even more.
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post #1770 of 1936 Old 04-30-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

What's the commont name for Color 'Lightness' Control ? Adjusting the main Color 'll change Luminance and also Saturation, I have 2 HDTVs with different CMS but none of them have specific Lightness controls.

Some use terms like "brightness" or "luminance"
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Reply Display Calibration

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