Color Decoder Questions – SXRD Inaccurate Primaries - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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- Do inaccurate primaries affect how to set the color decoder?
- Because of inaccurate primaries, will secondary colors be something other than 50% of the related primaries (ex. Cyan – 50% green and 50% blue)? If so, how would I calculate percentages to try to get for the secondaries?
- Is there a flashing test pattern for setting the color decoder like the Avia or GetGray color/hue patterns? I’m thinking something where you have the primary, related secondaries and gray next to each other like http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Ma...y/image007.gif
- Is there any way to change the primaries on an A2000 SXRD?
- Can colors be shut off on SXRD instead of using filters?

I used color filters to get the secondaries close and set the Y values of 75% red, green, and blue relative to gray as has been discussed on this forum. On HD DVD/Blu-ray it looks fine, but on ATSC there clearly seems to be too much color. I turned down the ATSC color control which helped so that red didn’t glow, but still green seemed too high with glowing Gatorade cups and yellows for TV.

How would you deal with this? I think there’s only one set of color decoder settings, so would reducing green saturation (and maybe red saturation) in the color decoder be the way to deal with this? The TV offers a Live Color user control that I believe can increase the saturation of red, but I can’t think of a way that would help.

Primaries measured with HCFR and Display LT:
Red 0.684, 0.312
Green 0.284, 0.704
Blue 0.138, 0.053

Set with Rec. 709:
Gray: 100%
Red: 21.3%
Green: 71.5%
Blue: 7.2%
LL
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post #2 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 01:05 PM
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Download Greg Rogers' luminance calculator.

http://www.accupel.com/HDG3000_manuals.html

Yes, uncorrectable inaccurate primaries will change the desired color decoding targets, but not by a lot. For example, with your reported numbers:

R: 0.219
G: 0.710
B: 0.070

would be the correct values. These are not different enough to reliably measure, much less worry about.

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post #3 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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100% white (0.312, 0.330) in the calculator shows almost the same as the standard. A bit more green and a bit less red but very close. I plugged my 75% values (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...0&d=1190877413) into the calculator and got completely different results though. If I leave gray Y at 1 and click compute it shows me:

Red Y 0.215
Green Y 0.658
Blue Y 0.128

The difference in green and blue is rather large. Any comments?
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post #4 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

100% white (0.312, 0.330) in the calculator shows almost the same as the standard. A bit more green and a bit less red but very close. I plugged my 75% values (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...0&d=1190877413) into the calculator and got completely different results though. If I leave gray Y at 1 and click compute it shows me:

Red Y 0.215
Green Y 0.658
Blue Y 0.128

The difference in green and blue is rather large. Any comments?

That's odd, I got different values when I used the numbers in your link. Are you sure you entered them into the calculator correctly?
LL

-Greg
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post #5 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Those are the 100% values. Here are the 75% gray, red, blue, green numbers that I don't understand. The only thing I can think of is that the calculator expects primaries (100%) to be entered. So are the results incorrect unless 100% values are entered? The impression I got from discussions on the forum was that percent stimulation was immaterial as long as all the levels were common, so I had expected to see similar numbers with 75% but that was not the case. If the 75% result is clearly incorrect, can someone give me a clue why?
LL
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post #6 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 02:49 PM
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Oh. Sorry about that. I am affraid I might be stumped. What was your source for the patterns? I use the getgray patterns which are 75 percent amplitude. I am not sure if that is the same as 75 percent saturated. I will bow out now and wait for the experts.

-Greg
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post #7 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been using an Nvidia 8600GTS video card over HDMI and have made a few checks against DVE HD from my XA2 over HDMI. The computer does introduce some variables, but Sony Studios Blu-ray, w6rz, and DVE HD are the only HD calibration disks I have and none really interfaces with HCFR's requested patterns. I'm not sure how the percentages are calculated, so I really can't come up with anything to explain the difference of over 5% because the sources have shown less than 1% difference on the items I've checked.

If I use 75% patterns to set the color decoder, should I use the percentage results I get from the 75% values entered into the calculator? I can use either the computer or GetGray to take a full set of grayscale measurements and provide all 75% patterns. The w6rz website does have the full set of patterns, but they don't seem to be on the HD DVD iso disk.
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post #8 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 04:00 PM
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I really don't know what you are doing. The xy values for RGB you provided in the HCFR file are:

R: 0.683, 0.312
G: 0.284, 0.703
B: 0.138, 0.052

If you use the 75% white point of
0.314, 0.330 (I hadn't put a custom white point in before)

the calculator returns

R: .221
G: .711
B: .068

which, as I wrote below, is a very small deviation from the expected standard.

But in your screen shot of the calculator, you show COMPLETELY different xy points for the primaries. Where did those come from? Yes, if you measure blue at 0.171, 0.103, then the decoder values will be very different because that's a HUGE primary error.

To use the Luminance calculator,

1. Click Rec. 709 or Rec. 601.
Standard xy values will appear.
2. Type your measured xy values into the boxes.
3. Click Compute Y.
Correct Luminance values will appear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Those are the 100% values. Here are the 75% gray, red, blue, green numbers that I don't understand. The only thing I can think of is that the calculator expects primaries (100%) to be entered. So are the results incorrect unless 100% values are entered? The impression I got from discussions on the forum was that percent stimulation was immaterial as long as all the levels were common, so I had expected to see similar numbers with 75% but that was not the case. If the 75% result is clearly incorrect, can someone give me a clue why?


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post #9 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

To use the Luminance calculator,

1. Click Rec. 709 or Rec. 601.
Standard xy values will appear.
2. Type your measured [primary] xy values into the boxes.
3. Click Compute Y.
Correct Luminance values will appear.

Thanks.

I suppose the only line of question I can't seem to figure out is, what sort of effects does the primaries being outside the gamut have? Is there a way to somewhat offset those effects? For example if I was to fill in the 'Gray Y' box with a value less than one, might those settings get rid of the day-glo green Gatorade cups, too-bright Packers helmets, and un-naturally glowing Nascars on HDTV yesterday? Turning down the color control to correct for those items didn't seem to keep colors around green in balance with red and blue.
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post #10 of 36 Old 10-01-2007, 06:38 PM
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Without a CMS, there is nothing you can do. The SXRDs are notorious for their uncorrectable oversaturated primaries. Turning down the Color control just a little might help, but not much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I suppose the only line of question I can't seem to figure out is, what sort of effects does the primaries being outside the gamut have? Is there a way to somewhat offset those effects? For example if I was to fill in the 'Gray Y' box with a value less than one, might those settings get rid of the day-glo green Gatorade cups, too-bright Packers helmets, and un-naturally glowing Nascars on HDTV yesterday? Turning down the color control to correct for those items didn't seem to keep colors around green in balance with red and blue.


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post #11 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 05:45 AM
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Ordered a ~$5 attenuator yesterday, hoping to finally resolve a minor 'red-push' decoder problem with my CRT RPTV. It's a RCA-type fixture, fixed resistor (1 dB in line attenuator from parts-express.com) that I'll plug into the RPTV's YPbPr red input, then plug the Pr cable from my Zektor switcher into the attenuator. Someone, uncovered with a Google search, found 1 dB worked but 3 dB was too much for their different display model. Really just tinkering since I've had relatively good images for years, but have had to crank my tint control way toward green to achieve normal flesh tones. But the excessively purple/maroon tints of blue uniforms in last week's Presidents Cup golf match (too much red altering blues, I concluded) prompted this decoder-output fix attempt. The red uniforms were really RED in bright sun.

Measured about -20% for the red decoder Avia bar several years ago. If the guesstimate 1-dB red component input attenuation won't help, perhaps I'll try this variable RF attenuator approach (from a Google search) for greater flexibility (attenuators on all YPbPr inputs). My CDROM service disc lists service adjustments but nothing for red decoding immediately jumps out, and some recent glitch is preventing a service mode selection anyway. -- John
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post #12 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

Ordered a ~$5 attenuator yesterday, hoping to finally resolve a minor 'red-push' decoder problem with my CRT RPTV.

Interesting approach. I've never heard of this. Keep us posted.

-Greg
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post #13 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Interesting approach. I've never heard of this. Keep us posted.

These were very popular a few years ago among Mitsubishi owners who hung out on another forum. One of the members was building them for sale at the time. Unfortunately, this solution works only on component inputs. It's far better if your set's service menu contains controls for color decoder setup. That way you can get the decoder correct for all input types.

What brand of set do you have, John?

...Royce...

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post #14 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce View Post

These were very popular a few years ago among Mitsubishi owners who hung out on another forum. One of the members was building them for sale at the time. Unfortunately, this solution works only on component inputs. It's far better if your set's service menu contains controls for color decoder setup. That way you can get the decoder correct for all input types.

What brand of set do you have, John?

Yes, the 'spot' is where I came across this approach (component input attenuation) for certain Mits models. My year-2000 Philips 64PH9905 only has YPbPr inputs (plus built-in HD and NTSC tuners). not DVI/HDMI, and at the moment am mostly using only 1080i from my cable HD converter. -- John
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post #15 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 10:53 AM
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I used the I2C setup to balance the color decoder on my 2000/2001 Mits 46807 instead of the attenuator. Haven't seen a day-glo red traffic light on my TV in years!

...Royce...

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post #16 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 11:08 AM
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you mean the I2C HACK!!! ;0)..I was one of the original people who had one..55807 Mits..

Rich L

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post #17 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 12:16 PM
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Here is another color decoding spreadsheet that you may find useful. Greg Rogers' application will give a more accurate number, but the difference will be very small unless the primaries are extremely inaccurate.

 

color_decoding.zip 4.6474609375k . file

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post #18 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 01:29 PM
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Pretty slick, Tom. Now I have about 3 or 4 ways to determine how screwed up my decoding is. Is it better to focus on the error in the luminance error per your spreadsheet or the dE (Luv)?

-Greg
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post #19 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 02:17 PM
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They are different. The dE spreadsheets show overall deviations from a color reference and then break out what part of that is based on luminance error.

The decoding spreadsheet in much simpler. It just shows a % deviation from expected luminance value. This would be the more straightforward way to show a color decoding error. The other spreadsheet is for color accuracy in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Pretty slick, Tom. Now I have about 3 or 4 ways to determine how screwed up my decoding is. Is it better to focus on the error in the luminance error per your spreadsheet or the dE (Luv)?


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post #20 of 36 Old 10-02-2007, 10:39 PM
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I have heard of a way to "calculate the value" for the color/tint adjustments when you should use the blue filter playing with DVE. Is this the right thing you are talking about here?
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post #21 of 36 Old 10-03-2007, 06:14 AM
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I highly recommend that my users who are looking to do this with an instrument do this by using dE '94. If your primaries are off of the standard, the luminance method can introduce more error, rather than less, unless you correct for where your primaries are actually located (Greg Rogers' applet; or you use Progressive Labs or our upcoming Pro version).

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post #22 of 36 Old 10-03-2007, 10:32 AM
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The moral of the story, aside from "eat your vegetables", is that you are rarely going to fix color inaccuracies by tweaking a color decoder control. You can mitigate some objectionable colors, but you are most likely not going to do so with an overall improvement in color accuracy.

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post #23 of 36 Old 10-03-2007, 10:42 AM
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A quick run through the original questions:
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

- Do inaccurate primaries affect how to set the color decoder?

The physical location of the primaries affects the mix of them needed to hit a white point. That mix will also determine the location of the secondaries. A correctly-decoded Component video signal should show-up precisely on these points.

Quote:


- Because of inaccurate primaries, will secondary colors be something other than 50% of the related primaries (ex. Cyan - 50% green and 50% blue)? If so, how would I calculate percentages to try to get for the secondaries?

No, in non-linear light, the secondaries are always going to be an even mix of the primaries. In linear light, this is never the case, strictly speaking, for any standards-accurate device, e.g., green will always dominate in raw photons.
Quote:


- Is there a flashing test pattern for setting the color decoder like the Avia or GetGray color/hue patterns? I'm thinking something where you have the primary, related secondaries and gray next to each other like http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Ma...y/image007.gif


This question seems to ask an answer itself.
Quote:


- Is there any way to change the primaries on an A2000 SXRD?

Some upcoming Radiance functionality should do this. The VP costs more than the TV, though.
Quote:


- Can colors be shut off on SXRD instead of using filters?

Not to any positive effect.

One thing to keep in mind is that Sony's RCP is somewhere in between a set of color decoder controls and a real CMS. If you play with it enough, you may get positive results out of it. However, these will invariably require tradeoffs, many of which make the set less accurate, rather than more.

Bill

Color accuracy evangelist and CalMAN insider
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post #24 of 36 Old 10-03-2007, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Is the dE(uv) column in the original KRAS Muzik spreadsheet Delta E (CIE 1994) as shown on http://brucelindbloom.com? I'm not familiar with anything besides xyY, so I'm merely guessing that maybe the CIE calcs is simply using something other than Lab as explicitly shown on the website. I suppose I could back check things using the calculator there, but i figured maybe someone here instead would know.
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post #25 of 36 Old 10-03-2007, 11:06 AM
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I do not use LAB as it is for textiles and paint - not light displays. Light display perception is different than surfaces - which is why CIE could not agree on one standard back then. LUV has not been updated since 1976 as far as I am aware - which is what I used. In the 1976 version the LUV and LAB dE is simply the vector magnitude of its component space errors - as it is with the derived LCH space from either. Later LAB versions have added perceptual tweaks for different surfaces and industries - but I have not seen anything in those tweaks that apply to light displays. Reading references are posted in the spreadsheet. In general later versions tighten up the error on imperceivable differences (but required accuracy in paint/textiles) by sacrificing perceptual error accuracy on differences greater than 5dE - they are not recommended for the large perceivable errors - the kind you might have when profiling a video display.

Read the references closer - the dE based on LUV is documented in Poynton - but is basically the same being a vector magnitude of component differences - it is only the components that differ between LAB and LUV.
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angryht

If you are going to modify my spreadsheet - at least have the courtesy to add your name in the revisions at the bottom. I don't want people bugging ME when they find a bug in YOUR spreadsheet. The reason I did not post it with charts to begin with is - my charts are way too fancy to give away (too fancy even for Excel) - and if you want a spreadsheet with charts - it is not that hard to find someone else selling them for a modest fee that supports a sensor you likely have The spreadsheet is strictly for educational purposes for those reading the references and find it easier to play with the numbers in Excel. If you want to calibrate your display - then there are several softwares at various budgets you can use.
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post #27 of 36 Old 10-03-2007, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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In my measurements, the primary colors seem to be at the same location regardless of the color, hue, GYR, GYB, RYR, RYB. In my quick looks at the spreadsheets I've downloaded it appears that with fixed primary locations lowering green saturation (default setting for the TV) will reduce the deltaE for green that I had a problem with when I set color saturation to match white. I figure it's quite possible that blue and possibly red error might also increase by lowering saturation. I suppose at this point I'll see what generally happens with deltaE in the spreadsheets on the primaries as I unsaturate the colors.
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post #28 of 36 Old 10-03-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik View Post

angryht

If you are going to modify my spreadsheet - at least have the courtesy to add your name in the revisions at the bottom. I don't want people bugging ME when they find a bug in YOUR spreadsheet. The reason I did not post it with charts to begin with is - my charts are way too fancy to give away (too fancy even for Excel) - and if you want a spreadsheet with charts - it is not that hard to find someone else selling them for a modest fee that supports a sensor you likely have The spreadsheet is strictly for educational purposes for those reading the references and find it easier to play with the numbers in Excel. If you want to calibrate your display - then there are several softwares at various budgets you can use.

Point taken. I have removed the post and the modified spreadsheet. Thanks again for providing the original and I would encourage others to use it educationally. For those who are interested it is here.

-Greg
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post #29 of 36 Old 10-09-2007, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht View Post

Interesting approach. I've never heard of this. Keep us posted.

The phone-ordered part, a small 1 dB line level attenuator arrived from parts-express.com today. Took a few seconds to plug (as outlined earlier above) and seems to have cured my red push. Only had to crank my tint control from far left (full green) back toward center (about halfway).

As mentioned , the earlier tint setting seemed to provide suitable flesh tines, but deep blue clothing colors were sometimes too purplish from the red decoder push (-20% with the Avia test DVD). Might go back to check with Avia, but happy with this simple fix just by looking at the Presidents Cup golf 1080i segment I DVRed and observing the purple in dark blues is gone and flesh tones are still okay, too. -- John
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post #30 of 36 Old 10-09-2007, 01:05 PM
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Thanks for the update. Just so I'm clear, you're describing this part, right?

-Greg
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