AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 100 - AVS Forum
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post #2971 of 3986 Old 09-27-2011, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Regarding the APL Large and Small Gray Patterns, if you were to quantify the APL that each of these holds constant, what would that be? Basically, what would the equivalent percent stimulus for a full field pattern for each? I hope my question makes sense as I'm not sure exactly how to phrase it.

Good question; makes perfect sense to me.
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post #2972 of 3986 Old 09-27-2011, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Regarding the APL Large and Small Gray Patterns, if you were to quantify the APL that each of these holds constant, what would that be? Basically, what would the equivalent percent stimulus for a full field pattern for each?

It depends how you want to try to make an approximation. Just averaging the video levels doesn't make sense, because a white window clearly puts a lot more strain on plasma or CRT than a field of the same average. What I mean is that a 100% gray (reference white) window at 15% area would average to 15% gray, and I don't think many would argue that a white window is more difficult for plasma or CRT to produce than a 15% gray field. Probably a more reasonable thing to do is to gamma-adjust video levels before averaging, since in effect that's what the TV has to do with the light output. The 15% area white window would still have a gamma-adjusted average of 15%, but the matching field after a 2.2 gamma adjustment would be around a 42% gray field (.42^2.2~15%).

If I put a single-point curve adjustment on the image to approximate 2.2 gamma, here are the results:

Small APL -> gamma-adjusted average around 4.7%, which would be similar to a 25% gray field (.25^2.2~4.7%)

Large APL -> gamma-adjusted average around 24.7%, which would be similar to a 53% gray field (.53^2.2~24.7%)


As examples of random somewhat bright images (white in uniforms), here was the current headline from NFL.com http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...P11_cp#photo=1

If I convert the images to black and white and then follow the same procedure, here are the results:

Image 1 -> gamma-adjusted average around 17.6%
Image 2 -> gamma-adjusted average around 23.5%
Image 3 -> gamma-adjusted average around 21.6%
Image 4 -> gamma-adjusted average around 12.9%

For examples of random movie images, the Blu-ray posts from the Star Wars http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post20965206

Post #3 -> gamma-adjusted average around 15.7%
Post #4 -> gamma-adjusted average around 21.6%
Posts #5 & #6 -> gamma-adjusted average around 2.4%
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post #2973 of 3986 Old 09-28-2011, 04:08 PM
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Hi, I downloaded what I needed (HDMV (.exe)) and ended up getting a short video of a clip called A!!Hole wife on the DVD after burning it, I thought it was a porn at first LOL... Whats up with that? I tried the DVD in my panasonic BD-210 but it wouldn't work... Is there any other settings I need check off on IMGBURN to get it to work.
Thanks Andy
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post #2974 of 3986 Old 09-28-2011, 05:42 PM
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Nevermind... I downloaded the wrong file for the panasonic, next time I will take my time instead of rushing. (This file was needed AVCHD (.exe) But it is funny how the comical video got onto the DVD when trying to view it on the laptop. All is good and great DVD!! Thanks a bunch!!
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post #2975 of 3986 Old 09-29-2011, 01:14 PM
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Hello everyone,

Yesterday i came across this topic and decided to try calibrating my Samsung LE32A559P4F TV myself.
I read this page, Display Calibration - Part I and watched the HDnation movies.
When i want to adjust the brightness i only see 17-25 flashing. I know this is exactly how it must be. But when i turn the brightness to it's highest i still see 17-25 flashing. If i am right i have to see more flashing parts appear? According to the Patterns-Manual.pdf and the HDnation movies i have to see more flashing parts appear?
This also happen with the contrast, 230-234.
Is this normal or is my TV doing this?

My pc is connected to my TV with HDMI.
And i also tried it with my PS3 to TV.
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post #2976 of 3986 Old 09-29-2011, 01:56 PM
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Your devices are clipping at video levels or the TV is restricting the input signal. You will need to change their settings to enable an extended range.

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post #2977 of 3986 Old 09-29-2011, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baswazz View Post

Hello everyone,

Yesterday i came across this topic and decided to try calibrating my Samsung LE32A559P4F TV myself.
I read this page, Display Calibration - Part I and watched the HDnation movies.
When i want to adjust the brightness i only see 17-25 flashing. I know this is exactly how it must be. But when i turn the brightness to it's highest i still see 17-25 flashing. If i am right i have to see more flashing parts appear? According to the Patterns-Manual.pdf and the HDnation movies i have to see more flashing parts appear?
This also happen with the contrast, 230-234.
Is this normal or is my TV doing this?

My pc is connected to my TV with HDMI.
And i also tried it with my PS3 to TV.


For blu rays, via ps3 - I would set PS3 "RGB to limited"
Brightness Setting - I think the instructions are to lower brightness until flashing stopped at 17? And then increase a click or two back. It isn't essential to see 0-16 flashing, as video doesn't go so low.
Contrast - set this for 234 flashing, and personal taste for the brightest White you want to see, whilst maintaining pure White (no tint). After setting this, check brightness again, and then some of the other test patterns.

You will only see whites above 234 if you switch Superwhite On, on the PS3. This assumes your tv allows these too. But this isn't really require.
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post #2978 of 3986 Old 09-30-2011, 05:06 AM
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Thanks for the fast advice guys.
For my PS3 "SuperWhite - On" did the trick.
For my PC i have to check if i can find something like SuperWhite - On.
I don't think my TV is restricting the input signal because for the PS3 it does work now. Maybey ATI driver?
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post #2979 of 3986 Old 09-30-2011, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baswazz View Post

Maybey ATI driver?

No, madVR with Limited range RGB output (TV Levels) while the VGA driver setting is Full range RGB. (And set the TV to assume limited range RGB input if possible.)

"DIY certified hobby-calibrator" (based on ChadB's "warning signs" list
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post #2980 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

For blu rays, via ps3 - I would set PS3 "RGB to limited"
Brightness Setting - I think the instructions are to lower brightness until flashing stopped at 17? And then increase a click or two back. It isn't essential to see 0-16 flashing, as video doesn't go so low.
Contrast - set this for 234 flashing, and personal taste for the brightest White you want to see, whilst maintaining pure White (no tint). After setting this, check brightness again, and then some of the other test patterns.

You will only see whites above 234 if you switch Superwhite On, on the PS3. This assumes your tv allows these too. But this isn't really require.

Just to add, the PS3 won't pass BTB or WTW in any RGB mode, or for media in a non disk format (e.g. AVIs burned on a DVD).
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post #2981 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post


Just to add, the PS3 won't pass BTB or WTW in any RGB mode, or for media in a non disk format (e.g. AVIs burned on a DVD).

If you set your Ps3 to Y'CbCr on, RGB "limited" and super white "on" you will pass WTW + BTB.
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post #2982 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 11:10 AM
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hi, everybody , i'm frenchi select top menu on dvd and i have a problem when he go on hcfr windows not calman windows he play grayscale pattern all is ok and when he go to color red green blue cyan and magenta is ok but when arrive yellow he go a new time to the blue

can you help me please
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post #2983 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post


For blu rays, via ps3 - I would set PS3 "RGB to limited"
Brightness Setting - I think the instructions are to lower brightness until flashing stopped at 17? And then increase a click or two back. It isn't essential to see 0-16 flashing, as video doesn't go so low.
Contrast - set this for 234 flashing, and personal taste for the brightest White you want to see, whilst maintaining pure White (no tint). After setting this, check brightness again, and then some of the other test patterns.

You will only see whites above 234 if you switch Superwhite On, on the PS3. This assumes your tv allows these too. But this isn't really require.

Clipping the white at 234 generates an image way too bright (if you like to strain your eyes until they bleed go for it) 234 is not recommended follow the instructions to the "T" here:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/artic...stcontrol.html
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post #2984 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 02:13 PM
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"Contrast - set this for 234 flashing, and personal taste for the brightest White you want to see"

I dont think I suggested he set 234 for clipping, but for the brightest White he wanted to see, whilst 234 was flashing. So we probably agree, bleeding eyes would add an undesirable red tint!

Thanks for your link, I had not see that one.

"If what you want is the punchiest possible video, or you routinely watch video in a room with a significant amount of light, you may want to consider deliberately calibrating to maximize reference white and clipping the above-reference range."
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post #2985 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _thx1138_ View Post

If you set your Ps3 to Y'CbCr on, RGB "limited" and super white "on" you will pass WTW + BTB.



YCbCr and RGB are mutually exclusive, but yes, YCbCr and superwhite indeed passes BTB and WTW.
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post #2986 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babar710 View Post

when arrive yellow he go a new time to the blue

No one has reported chapter issues, so I will guess computer problems. Maybe bad memory or storage could alter the playlist file. I would suggest downloading and burning from a different computer. Otherwise if you don't think the problem is from the computer that created the disc, you can also check if the md5 matches. ImgBurn can create an md5 if you check the settings shown under "EXAMPLE FOR WINDOWS COMPUTERS" item 4 and run the verify disc option.
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post #2987 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Gálvez View Post

YCbCr and RGB are mutually exclusive

Not on a PS3.
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post #2988 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Not on a PS3.

Well mine can output either YCbCr or RGB at one time.

Which is fortunate as my TV also can only take one type of signal at a time.
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post #2989 of 3986 Old 10-01-2011, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wl1 View Post

"Contrast - set this for 234 flashing, and personal taste for the brightest White you want to see"

I dont think I suggested he set 234 for clipping, but for the brightest White he wanted to see, whilst 234 was flashing. So we probably agree, bleeding eyes would add an undesirable red tint!

Thanks for your link, I had not see that one.

"If what you want is the punchiest possible video, or you routinely watch video in a room with a significant amount of light, you may want to consider deliberately calibrating to maximize reference white and clipping the above-reference range."

I agree... my cinema picture settings are at one contrast level for blurays and my custom picture settings are another for cable hd/day viewing..my grey scale calibration is identical for both though (same off sets) SD/HD matrixes ...though my gamma curve in custom is questionable.
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post #2990 of 3986 Old 10-02-2011, 04:18 AM
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Thanks for that post, very useful information. I see that average video levels for the material you analyzed are all near or below the large APL pattern. Was that intentional or coincidence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

... because a white window clearly puts a lot more strain on plasma or CRT than a field of the same average. What I mean is that a 100% gray (reference white) window at 15% area would average to 15% gray, and I don't think many would argue that a white window is more difficult for plasma or CRT to produce than a 15% gray field.

If by strain you mean power limiting, this is purely a digital function on plasmas. The voltage used to break down the gas and create the plasma discharge for each of the pixels is constant and independent of the video level. What changes is the duty cycle, and whether you have 2073600 pixels running 15% of the time or 311040 pixels running 100% of the time makes no difference at the pixel level. The power draw in both cases is identical and will be limited (or not) independent of the pattern size. CRTs are completely different in that the voltage varies with video level to increase/decrease light output, in that case you may be correct if the light output is not linear with voltage.
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post #2991 of 3986 Old 10-02-2011, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

I see that average video levels for the material you analyzed are all near or below the large APL pattern. Was that intentional or coincidence?

The pictures I used were entirely random. During the week I had watched Star Wars and an NFL game. Except for the last two Star Wars images, the results were similar to other images I had looked at previously.

Quote:


If by strain you mean power limiting, this is purely a digital function on plasmas.

I was just talking about the sort of power draw likely required to produce different images. I had assumed a perfect power supply, and hadn't including anything like power limiting. I have a tendency to think that a real-world measurement of power draw on plasma is not likely to be similar when showing a 15% area white window and a 15% gray field. I could be entirely wrong, but your measurements don't seem to indicate that a 15% gray field introduces power limiting in the same way that a 15% area white can on plasma.

Quote:


What changes is the duty cycle

From what I've read about plasma, I agree that how long the pixel is running (duty cycle) appears to be the primary way to produce different on-screen brightness levels.

Quote:


whether you have 2073600 pixels running 15% of the time or 311040 pixels running 100% of the time makes no difference at the pixel level. The power draw in both cases is identical

If I take this entirely at face value, I will agree.

In order to put it more into context:
  • If white is represented by the pixel running 100% of the time, how long does the pixel need to run to produce light that measures about 1.5% of the brightness of white? (15% gray at 2.2 gamma)
  • How long does the pixel need to run to produce light that measures about 15% of the brightness of white? (42% gray at 2.2 gamma)

Quote:


CRTs are completely different in that the voltage varies with video level to increase/decrease light output

I may have been wrong for lumping CRT with plasma. Since CRT tends to have a natural non-linear relationship between the input and light output, I suppose it's possible a simple average might be a better comparison for similar images on CRT.
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post #2992 of 3986 Old 10-02-2011, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The pictures I used were entirely random. During the week I had watched Star Wars and an NFL game. Except for the last two Star Wars images, the results were similar to other images I had looked at previously.



I was just talking about the sort of power draw likely required to produce different images. I had assumed a perfect power supply, and hadn't including anything like power limiting. I have a tendency to think that a real-world measurement of power draw on plasma is not likely to be similar when showing a 15% area white window and a 15% gray field. I could be entirely wrong, but your measurements don't seem to indicate that a 15% gray field introduces power limiting in the same way that a 15% area white can on plasma.

I would have to do more measurements comparing fields to windows with the same average, but I haven't seen anything yet to indicated that APL depends on which pixels are stimulated.
Quote:


From what I've read about plasma, I agree that how long the pixel is running (duty cycle) appears to be the primary way to produce different on-screen brightness levels.



If I take this entirely at face value, I will agree.

In order to put it more into context:
  • If white is represented by the pixel running 100% of the time, how long does the pixel need to run to produce light that measures about 1.5% of the brightness of white? (15% gray at 2.2 gamma)
  • How long does the pixel need to run to produce light that measures about 15% of the brightness of white? (42% gray at 2.2 gamma)

Perceived brightness on plasmas depends mostly on pixel duty cycle (also called pulse width modulation PWM - time averaging) and secondarily on spatial averaging (dither). Neglecting dithering 15% and 42% brightness level grays will simply have the pixels running 15% and 45% of the each frame. Those on-times will be further broken up into separate pulses for each of the RGB sub-pixels depending on the white balance distribution.
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post #2993 of 3986 Old 10-02-2011, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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If the "power draw in both cases is identical" then I figure that something like a Kill-A-Watt meter would report similar numbers for a plasma TV when displaying either the white window or the 15% field from this project. If I still lived in Denver, where the public library rents power meters, I would probably test the idea myself. Off hand I can't think of a way to reconcile such behavior with light measurements that seem to indicate power limiting on the white window pattern, unless somehow the 15% field is also power limited.

If an an average is all that's needed, here are approximate averages for the APL patterns.

Small APL about 7% gray
Large APL about 36% gray

Here are averages for the Star Wars Blu-ray images that I used before http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post20965206

Post #3 about 33% gray
Post #4 about 41% gray
Post #5 about 9% gray
Post #6 about 13% gray

Considering the averages for #5 & #6, I would tend to think that most video I watch likely has a higher overall average than the statement "Television program material is said to have a 15% APL over a long period of time" from http://www.videoessentials.com/glossary.php I also question the statement "The Window patterns used for setting gray scale in all three titles have a 16% APL so that they will closely represent normal program material in their current drain on the high voltage power supply.", unless they meant to only refer to the white window with 16%.
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post #2994 of 3986 Old 10-03-2011, 11:08 AM
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I can setup the brightness now.
With the contrast i see 230-252 flashing. My contrast is by default 95 where 0 is minimum and 100 is max. So it looks like i can't set the contrast high enough to let 235-253 disappear. Any tips?
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post #2995 of 3986 Old 10-03-2011, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baswazz View Post

I can setup the brightness now.
With the contrast i see 230-252 flashing. My contrast is by default 95 where 0 is minimum and 100 is max. So it looks like i can't set the contrast high enough to let 235-253 disappear. Any tips?

Why would you want to? Set contrast so that light output is what you want, it doesn't clip, and there is no color shift.

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post #2996 of 3986 Old 10-04-2011, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Why would you want to? Set contrast so that light output is what you want, it doesn't clip, and there is no color shift.

I turned on super-white on my ps3. So i can setup the brightness and contrast properly. For the brightness it works. But for the contrast not.



The default contrast is 95 on my TV, i can set it between 0 and 100 i think that would be in the most cases if not all.
By default i see bar 230-252 flashing, this has to be 230-234. But when i move the contrast slider to the left or right i can't get it done.
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post #2997 of 3986 Old 10-04-2011, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baswazz View Post

By default i see bar 230-252 flashing, this has to be 230-234. But when i move the contrast slider to the left or right i can't get it done.

No, it does not. There is information above 234, Rec. 709 or not, so if your display handles it without clipping (it obviously isn't clipping), without color shifts, and without being so bright that it stresses your eyes and brain, so be it. It's head room - let it happen.

Read this.

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post #2998 of 3986 Old 10-04-2011, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

No, it does not. There is information above 234, Rec. 709 or not, so if your display handles it without clipping (it obviously isn't clipping), without color shifts, and without being so bright that it stresses your eyes and brain, so be it. It's head room - let it happen.

Read this.

I think you don't understand my problem. Or i don't understand you.
Regarding to my PS3:
I use "1-Black Clipping" and "3-White Clipping" from the AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration.

With 'super-white' turned off (ps3), i don't see any bars flashing below 17, when i turn brightness to it's maximum. It stays totally black.
With the contrast it is the same, i don't see any bars flashing 235 and up when i lower the contrast. It is totally white.

So that result, that there isn't anything to calibrate because it already looks like it suppose to be regarding to the manual and the other links.
That must be incorrect?


Then i turned on the "super-white" (ps3). This results in flashing bars below 17 when i turn brightness to it's maximum. And i also see the contrast bars flashing 230 up to 252.

So i now i edit the brightness correctly regarding to the pdf manual and the supplied link.

But then the contrast. by default as i mention above i see 230-253 flashing.
Regarding to the manual i have to change this, so i only see 230-234 flash.
But this i can't accomplish.

Quote:


With the pattern, adjust the contrast control such that levels 240 and lower are visible. At a bare minimum, levels 234 and lower must be visible as detailed in the image below.

So this is my question how do i accomplish this?
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post #2999 of 3986 Old 10-04-2011, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baswazz View Post

But then the contrast. by default as i mention above i see 230-253 flashing.
Regarding to the manual i have to change this, so i only see 230-234 flash.
But this i can't accomplish.

So this is my question how do i accomplish this?

Obviously on your display you can't, and there is nothing wrong with that no matter what the manual says.

Adjust contrast to provide the desired light output, PROVIDED:
1. No clipping
2. No color shift
3. No eye fatigue

Those are the rules.

Buzz
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post #3000 of 3986 Old 10-04-2011, 07:40 AM
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Edit to embellish:

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

1. No clipping - No WHITE clipping
2. No color shift - Discoloration - you only want to see shades of neutral gray
3. No eye fatigue - 35 foot Lamberts in a dim room.


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