AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 104 - AVS Forum
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post #3091 of 4026 Old 12-22-2011, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyMastur View Post

eh, not technically true. if you have a media player, they'll "play" the ISO as if it were burnt to a disc - works just fine on my WD TV Live+.

I understood that, but my Onkyo 608 was in at repairers and I was hoping to play the ISO directly through the Panasonic from my network. I am getting an Onkyo 609 replacement tomorrow, so I can connect my Med8er back into it and the system and play the ISO directly off my network through that.
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post #3092 of 4026 Old 12-25-2011, 01:52 AM
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ok so i was able to save this one a SD disc for my ps3, but i need to use the windows media center to run it through my 360 but it doenst even show up. help =(
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post #3093 of 4026 Old 12-25-2011, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazinghellion View Post

ok so i was able to save this one a SD disc for my ps3, but i need to use the windows media center to run it through my 360 but it doenst even show up. help =(

you can download the mp4 version, extract to hard drive and copy the directory tree to USB thumb drive or leave on the hard drive. Some patterns are not on that version but the one you burn to dvd will only play in a BR player.

I use the USB in my BR player since it is easier to navigate than the DVD when using a meter and software.
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post #3094 of 4026 Old 12-25-2011, 10:33 AM
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HI,
I don't know much about white-balance but can you calibrate 10-points IRE white-balance using AVS HD709 disc without a meter? If yes then which patterns.
I've read manual many times but there're still alot of 'question marks' for me, especially white-balance calibration.
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post #3095 of 4026 Old 12-26-2011, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

Where can I get the blue filter glasses from? Thx wants like $14 for them.. Well they are like $1.99 but the shipping is crazy for something like that...


wow it pays to play with your TV.. I just found the setting on my Samsung LN40D550 It's under the RGB only mode.

Sweet stuff! My blues are so blown out it's not funny.

Ok odd I used this mode and adjusted the color up and down and the flashing part of the color bars never blend in at all.
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post #3096 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fallengt View Post

HI,
I don't know much about white-balance but can you calibrate 10-points IRE white-balance using AVS HD709 disc without a meter?

Here is a reply to a similar question
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post20732748
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post #3097 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

Ok odd I used this mode and adjusted the color up and down and the flashing part of the color bars never blend in at all.

I don't know what this means, and I would need a further explanation how what you're seeing differs from the instructions in the PDF.
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post #3098 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazinghellion View Post

i need to use the windows media center to run it through my 360 but it doenst even show up. help =(

I'm not familiar with Windows Media Center, but the Xbox doesn't play Blu-ray or AVCHD to my knowledge. The Xbox does play the MP4 download after an online update.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13250359984283
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post #3099 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 06:33 PM
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How did you generate the Color Saturation patterns? I'm trying to come up with them myself but failing. For instance,

25% Magenta
Hue: 201
Sat: 34
Lum: 141

50% Magenta
Hue: 200
Sat: 81
Lum: 146

I'm guessing 201 vs 200 is a mistake? I come up with 200 as the correct value. I'm not sure how you got those numbers at all.
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post #3100 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I don't know what this means, and I would need a further explanation how what you're seeing differs from the instructions in the PDF.

The part to adjust the color with the SMPTE color bars and it has the flashing boxes, from my understanding it should be adjusted in blue mode so you can't see the flashing boxes so they blend in.. Well in blue mode and adjusting the colors I can't get the flashing boxes to fully blend in.

If need be I can do a video of it.
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post #3101 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruB4 View Post

The part to adjust the color with the SMPTE color bars and it has the flashing boxes, from my understanding it should be adjusted in blue mode so you can't see the flashing boxes so they blend in.. Well in blue mode and adjusting the colors I can't get the flashing boxes to fully blend in.

If need be I can do a video of it.

It's not like you can't see where they are. It's that the lightness/darkness matches. Go higher and lower on your color setting and you can see where one box gets darker than the surrounding bar while the other box is getting lighter. Pick one extreme and work toward the "middle", and do the same from the opposite direction (high color going down; low color going up.) You usually get to a place where the sweet spot is one of two settings, and at that point you just have to pick ... A .... or .... B.
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post #3102 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

It's not like you can't see where they are.

I agree with what kjgarrison wrote. There is a bit of a difference between the original image and the encoded video, which causes some variation at edges, so it may be possible to make out the box with a correct color setting. The general idea is to get the center of the box and the center of the bar approximately the same shade, when viewed through a blue filter.
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post #3103 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ams2990 View Post

How did you generate the Color Saturation patterns?

The calibration video was created from images. The saturation patterns simply used the values from ColorHCFR, which are based around a 2.22 display gamma. There may be a couple related threads, but I think the following one is on topic.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post15599685
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post #3104 of 4026 Old 12-27-2011, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The calibration video was created from images. The saturation patterns simply used the values from ColorHCFR, which are based around a 2.22 display gamma. There may be a couple related threads, but I think the following one is on topic.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post15599685

Never realized this much was involved in producing patterns.

Thanks for posting the link.

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post #3105 of 4026 Old 12-29-2011, 08:33 AM
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I just bought a samsung un55d8000 TV, and I would love to calibrate this TV to it true color.

My sources that connected to the Onkyo HTX-22HDX with built in HDMI switch are Xbox 360, HTPC, and a Samsung BD-D5500ZA player. And output of HDMI switch connect to the TV. So when I calibrate my HTPC in Movie mode of the TV, I'm guessing I have to calibrate my Xbox 360 as well, but am I still use the Movie mode, or other mode (standard, sport, dynamic)? And the same for my bluray player?
I know that I have to calibrate the TV with each different source, so if I use the Movie mode for all 3 sources, isn't I have to change the setting everytime I when I use different source?
Plus I have reading this thread for a while, and I try to calibrate my TV. But the problem that I have is when it come to calibrate the color and tint, I don't know what to do with it. I read the pdf manual, and it said I need to change the setting in blue mode so the flash box color (white & blue) should blend in with bar color. But do you guy know where is the blue mode in the UN55D8000 TV. Is it the RBG setting or other setting?
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post #3106 of 4026 Old 12-29-2011, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennisjyp View Post

still use the Movie mode, or other mode (standard, sport, dynamic)? And the same for my bluray player?

Typically it's possible to use the same mode setting, such as movie, for various sources.

Quote:
I know that I have to calibrate the TV with each different source, so if I use the Movie mode for all 3 sources, isn't I have to change the setting everytime I when I use different source?

It's a good idea to check each source, but personally my electronics allow me to run the same settings at the TV regardless which source I use. When you check each source you may find that they can output standard video levels and don't require separate settings, but on the other hand you may find some sources that don't match. For example the Xbox can output either standard video levels or computer levels, so depending how it is set it may or may not match a typical Blu-ray player output.

Quote:
I don't know what to do with it. I read the pdf manual, and it said I need to change the setting in blue mode so the flash box color (white & blue) should blend in with bar color. But do you guy know where is the blue mode in the UN55D8000 TV. Is it the RBG setting or other setting?

The HD Nation video, I think it's marked HDTV Calibation on the HDMV or AVCHD versions, has a demonstration of blue mode on a Samsung display. I would suggest watching the video and checking your TV manual for a similar option.
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post #3107 of 4026 Old 12-29-2011, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The calibration video was created from images. The saturation patterns simply used the values from ColorHCFR, which are based around a 2.22 display gamma. There may be a couple related threads, but I think the following one is on topic.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post15599685

So I've finally made it all the way through that thread and the various excel worksheets referenced. The numbers posted there agree with what I calculated myself...but they don't agree at all with the digital values I'm reading off of the saturation patterns. Admittedly, I'm reading them off the computer, so it's possible it's doing something screwy with limited vs full range, but I'd appreciate a hand in figuring out what's going on.

For instance, 50% red sat has an RGB triplet of (203, 91, 92). I don't know why that doesn't agree with ANYTHING, whether you convert it to limited range or treat it as limited range already. I also don't know why the G and B are different. They definitely shouldn't be.
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post #3108 of 4026 Old 12-29-2011, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ams2990 View Post

For instance, 50% red sat has an RGB triplet of (203, 91, 92). I don't know why that doesn't agree with ANYTHING,

The original image is 190, 95, 95. An idealized expansion would be 202, 91, 91. Your stated values are essentially expected for video levels expanded to computer levels as RGB values.

Quote:


I also don't know why the G and B are different. They definitely shouldn't be.

The video is not RGB. The video is being converted to RGB. I think some of the comments by dr1394 toward the beginning of this thread go into the actual math, but for simplicity I just expect there can be plus or minus 1 in the conversion to RGB values due to rounding. For example display a commercial color bar pattern and you will see the same sort of variation.
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post #3109 of 4026 Old 12-30-2011, 12:05 AM
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When I decode the 50% red saturation pattern, I get the PC level RGB triplet of 203, 92, 92. But that corresponds to 55% saturation at 80% brightness.

The 75% red saturation pattern is actually 71% saturation at 91% brightness.

The 25% red saturation pattern is actually 35% saturation at 67% brightness.

Is this what was intended, or is it some error?

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #3110 of 4026 Old 12-30-2011, 12:15 AM
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BTW, to check things out with the saturation patterns, I downloaded the HDMV self-extracting file (HDMV-2d.exe) from the w6rz.net mirror. Unfortunately, it is corrupted. My apologies to anyone that wasted time downloading that file. Over the next day or two, I'll check all the files.

Also, since the AVS HS 709 files were generating more traffic than anything else on w6rz.net, I added direct links to the main page (back in July).

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #3111 of 4026 Old 12-30-2011, 05:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

Is this what was intended, or is it some error?

From my perspective, the original intent was simply to match the saturation patterns that ColorHCFR displays. When I added the saturation section for ChromaPure I asked Tom what he wanted to include, and he said to use the same patterns.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post15599685
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post #3112 of 4026 Old 12-30-2011, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The original image is 190, 95, 95. An idealized expansion would be 202, 91, 91. Your stated values are essentially expected for video levels expanded to computer levels as RGB values.



The video is not RGB. The video is being converted to RGB. I think some of the comments by dr1394 toward the beginning of this thread go into the actual math, but for simplicity I just expect there can be plus or minus 1 in the conversion to RGB values due to rounding. For example display a commercial color bar pattern and you will see the same sort of variation.

Gotcha, on both points. New question. In the thread you linked me to, you said you were trying to maintain constant Y. I assumed you meant constant Y with the color at 100%. Red's Y is at 0.213. With gamma of 2.22 applied, (190,95,95) is .209. I calculate (184,100,100) to have the proper brightness. Can you do the calculations and see if you get (190,95,95)?
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post #3113 of 4026 Old 12-30-2011, 02:54 PM
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I would love to see a sharpness pattern that was a little bit easier to see the changes. I remember when I had my projector calibrated the guy had a pattern that consisted of a single gray pixel on a lighter gray background, it was plain to see when the proper setting his hit.. one click either way and it was no longer a perfect gray pixel.

I would guess this would not work well on a flat panel since you can not zoom in to make it bigger but even some supper fine print and 1 pixel wide lines would be helpful. Seems like there is so much going on in most sharpness patterns it is hard to know what it should look like and shouldn't..
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post #3114 of 4026 Old 01-03-2012, 02:47 PM
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I have a hard time seeing sharpness changes as well and I'm 27 only when I max it out can I see the change but 90% and under I can't seem much change on my screen.
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post #3115 of 4026 Old 01-03-2012, 10:37 PM
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Sharpness settings seem to get little mention. The more I play around with sharpness, the more I learn. Just today ...

On my Samsung plasma there is a button on the remote called "Tools". With that button switching (and A/B testing!) of different Picture modes can be done. Basically immediate switching is what happens, just by hitting the up/down arrows.

Just today I was doing A/B comparison of Standard and Movie modes with all other settings equal (cell light, contrast, brightness, color, tint, WB, etc.) except for color temperature settings (I thought.) I was curious to see how sporting events looked with cooler color temperature settings and was using this A/B test to see how Standard mode/Cool compared to my calibrated Movie mode/Warm2. I noticed that my Movie/Warm2 image was blurred compared to Standard/Cool. They had different Sharpness settings.

The program had some relatively static background signs to read making the difference easily seen. It was also easy to see the difference in facial lines of the guy talking on the show.

The Sharpness setting for (the slightly blurred) Movie mode was 10 and for (significantly clearer) Standard it was 50 (the halfway point of the slider.) So I increased Sharpness in Movie mode 10 points at a time and little by little the image got clearer until when it got to 50 it matched clarity with Standard using the A/B testing.

I also set the color temp settings the same- testing both on Cool and both on Warm2. Color temp didn't matter for this sharpness issue, as expected.

The setting of 10 wasn't just a guess either. Or at least I didn't think it was. I had previously set the Sharpness to 10 by adjusting it while standing close to the TV and looking at a test pattern on the AVS Rec709 disc. There is a lighter ghost image adjacent to dark lines at higher sharpness settings, so I turned sharpness down until the ghost disappeared. This is how I set my Sharpness.

That was 3 months ago.

And I haven't given it a thought as I enjoyed my TV's picture. The best TV I've owned. (plasma: Samsung PN51D8000).

So, while I thought the picture was close to as good as it can get for all these months, and while I was looking at something else, I noticed how blurry the picture is with such a low Sharpness setting.

I don't know if 50 is the best setting, but I know for sure it isn't 10. It will take awhile to see what looks best for a sharpness setting, and I know that looking at test patterns up close to the TV doesn't get it right.

Look at something with fine detail at normal viewing distance and do A/B testing if your TV has the ability. Sharpness, I am finding out, has a much bigger impact on the picture than some of these little errors in grayscale or color calibration.
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post #3116 of 4026 Old 01-04-2012, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

The setting of 10 wasn't just a guess either. Or at least I didn't think it was. I had previously set the Sharpness to 10 by adjusting it while standing close to the TV and looking at a test pattern on the AVS Rec709 disc. There is a lighter ghost image adjacent to dark lines at higher sharpness settings, so I turned sharpness down until the ghost disappeared. This is how I set my Sharpness.

What Sharpness setting do you end up with if you do the same from your normal viewing position?
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post #3117 of 4026 Old 01-04-2012, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

The program had some relatively static background signs to read making the difference easily seen.

Certainly it's possible to change an image to make text easier to read at times, but I'm not sure how that qualifies as calibration. It sounds like your setting may also fail to fit with the recommendations from other sources, such as Digital Video Essentials.
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post #3118 of 4026 Old 01-04-2012, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I would love to see a sharpness pattern that was a little bit easier to see the changes.

No further changes are planned. If you think it might be worth it to invest time in creating your own patterns, there's a post in the thread for how the patterns are authored.

Quote:


I remember when I had my projector calibrated the guy had a pattern that consisted of a single gray pixel on a lighter gray background

There are black pixels surrounded by white pixels in the resolution section.
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post #3119 of 4026 Old 01-04-2012, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ams2990 View Post

Can you do the calculations and see if you get (190,95,95)?

My major gripe with calibration has to do with just how much gamma variation there may be between various displays that measure similarly, and since the test relies on a non-varying gamma, I'm not sure I agree with the premise. I know it would take me some reading to do the math, but I think they got the math right toward the end of the linked thread. I would suggest checking your math against the chart that TomHuffman posted.
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post #3120 of 4026 Old 01-06-2012, 06:16 AM
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I prefer the Spears and Munsil sharpness pattern on my (plasma) display. I also check it right at the screen since I consider right to be right. I find it makes ringing obvious and I set sharpness one click below the point of ringing.

Last I heard D-Nice preferred the AVS HD709 pattern.
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