AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 105 - AVS Forum
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post #3121 of 3995 Old 01-06-2012, 08:27 AM
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I've been using the I guess pretty original version of this disk for almost four years, just downloaded the latest version in anticipation of getting an 8350, and wow, this is much more complete than it used to be.

Thank you to all the contributors, the best disk has become even better!
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post #3122 of 3995 Old 01-06-2012, 08:42 AM
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Can I ask what may be an obvious question to many of the experts here?

After spending countless hours reading the differences between RGB, YCbCr, 16-235 & 0-255...

If I have a new LED TV, a PS3 for Games & Bluray Playback, and an XBOX360 for Games, NetFlix, & MediaCenter HDTV Playback...

If I want to set my tv so that I can have one input, one display setting mode (on the TV) w/o screwing up my blacks & whites, I should set the PS3 & XBOX360 to force RGB & Full/Expanded everywhere, then set the TV's HDMI Level to "Normal", then simply tweak the brightness & contrast using the 1-Basic Levels MP4 (ie, the Brightness 0-255 calibration video)?

It seems to me this will provide the most accurate display across all source types w/o having to constantly switch modes.

Is this correct?

Thanks!
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post #3123 of 3995 Old 01-06-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

It will fit on a single layer DVD. Can you burn one of those yourself? Else some players support the AVCHD version on a USB stick.

-Bill

Ok, so I REALLY tried following this thread to figure out and perhaps I am close.

I want/need to check some of the test patterns against my to be newly installed 6010.

But I don't have a Blue Ray Burner, nor do I know anyone that does. However I can burn to DVD and I do have a PS3 (FAT)

Will that allow me to "use" this disc ? Then confused to WHAT I am burning to the DVD to play in the PS3?

Thanks in advance!
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post #3124 of 3995 Old 01-06-2012, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post

Ok, so I REALLY tried following this thread to figure out and perhaps I am close.

I want/need to check some of the test patterns against my to be newly installed 6010.

But I don't have a Blue Ray Burner, nor do I know anyone that does. However I can burn to DVD and I do have a PS3 (FAT)

Will that allow me to "use" this disc ? Then confused to WHAT I am burning to the DVD to play in the PS3?

Thanks in advance!

Yes, get the AVCHD version. Burn to DVD, and play on PS3. I have a slim PS3 and it played well. Your fat version should work too.
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post #3125 of 3995 Old 01-06-2012, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osburnfamily View Post

If I want to set my tv so that I can have one input, one display setting mode (on the TV) w/o screwing up my blacks & whites

The answer to this somewhat depends on chosen priorities, and it may be debatable if you can really calibrate for games. My personal interest is primarily Blu-ray playback, so for that the general recommendation would be to use standard video levels for all sources. I don't remember what the Xbox calls video levels (should be default setting), but http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post13955243 has video level settings for the PS3.
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post #3126 of 3995 Old 01-06-2012, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

What Sharpness setting do you end up with if you do the same from your normal viewing position?

Sorry I haven't responded to this question sooner. I have actually been working on the answer.

So, with my Samsung plasma, and standing close to the screen so that individual pixels can be seen, the sharpness setting I arrive at, and the point as sharpness is decreased where vertical and horizontal black lines have no zone of lighter pixels, is ~10.

From my normal viewing position, which is ~10 feet away, the setting is ~ 20-25.

I get these same results with the AVS disc and the S&M disc. When viewing programming, especially football games, the sharpness setting of 10, as I have already posted, is significantly blurred compared to the setting of 20. Higher settings up to around 40 look even sharper, but there is something about them that's "too sharp" and the white halo in the test patterns is easily visible from my normal viewing position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Certainly it's possible to change an image to make text easier to read at times, but I'm not sure how that qualifies as calibration. It sounds like your setting may also fail to fit with the recommendations from other sources, such as Digital Video Essentials.

I don't have the DVE disc to see what the recommendations you are referring to are. The S&M instructions do not specify what viewing distance to do the sharpness adjustment from, and neither does your manual as of August 13, 2011. If the DVE disc specifies, then I apologize for not knowing, but I can say that there is a significant difference in the setting on my plasma depending on how close I am to the TV when looking for the lighter halos.
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post #3127 of 3995 Old 01-07-2012, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

I can say that there is a significant difference in the setting on my plasma depending on how close I am to the TV when looking for the lighter halos.

Perception is the only thing I can think of that generally tends to change with distance. The topic is basically being discussed at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1385212
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post #3128 of 3995 Old 01-08-2012, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The topic is basically being discussed

There's no discussion there. Just trolls and nonsense. Although I'm surprised to find myself in agreement with Doug but not suprised to disagree with Michael.
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post #3129 of 3995 Old 01-11-2012, 03:18 PM
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Now that I have calibrated my PJ with PS3 (thread here), I need to do the same with my HTPC. Is it advisable to do a separate calibration for the HTPC with the PJ, or should I use GPU for tweaking the picture? ATI's control panel has some settings, although I haven't tried how useful they are.
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post #3130 of 3995 Old 01-12-2012, 07:35 AM
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I read through the patterns info pdf but the meter aiming patterns are not covered.

Anyone know how those patterns are used?

I assume you just put them up and take readings and try to determine if the meter is aimed correctly but ... I'm not sure how that would really work.
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post #3131 of 3995 Old 01-12-2012, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post

meter aiming patterns

They're just included for trying to place contact meters in the middle of the related patterns, for example in the center of the window.
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post #3132 of 3995 Old 01-12-2012, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jouko342 View Post

Is it advisable to do a separate calibration for the HTPC with the PJ, or should I use GPU for tweaking the picture?

It's generally preferable to make most changes at the display, but there may be reasons for making changes elsewhere. Personally I consider video from the computer as less-critical than video from the Blu-ray player, so I let my computer expand video to computer levels and have the Blu-ray player output standard video levels. My TV has settings for choosing between a computer and a standard video input, so that's the only thing I change between my computer and Blu-ray player.
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post #3133 of 3995 Old 01-12-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

They're just included for trying to place contact meters in the middle of the related patterns, for example in the center of the window.

Thank You.
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post #3134 of 3995 Old 01-13-2012, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

It's generally preferable to make most changes at the display, but there may be reasons for making changes elsewhere. Personally I consider video from the computer as less-critical than video from the Blu-ray player, so I let my computer expand video to computer levels and have the Blu-ray player output standard video levels. My TV has settings for choosing between a computer and a standard video input, so that's the only thing I change between my computer and Blu-ray player.

I couldn't get 0-16 or anything above 235 to show up from my HTPC, no matter how I set my ATI GPU's control panel. So I'm guessing they are not sent at all or clipped by my Onkyo 705. How do I fix that?

BTB and WTW show up correctly with PS3.
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post #3135 of 3995 Old 01-14-2012, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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You can test the Onkyo by feeding the PS3 through it. By default most computers expand video to computer levels. I could force my ATI to output video at 16-235 with Levels Wizard from http://www.upsilonsoftware.com/
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post #3136 of 3995 Old 01-14-2012, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

You can test the Onkyo by feeding the PS3 through it. By default most computers expand video to computer levels. I could force my ATI to output video at 16-235 with Levels Wizard from http://www.upsilonsoftware.com/

The PS3 is going through the Onkyo, and I get video levels with BTB/WTW.

After reading up on this it looks like my old ATI X1950 doesn't have video levels output in Catalyst software, it's locked or not at all available on it. So I have to live with possibly crushed blacks and whites.

I tried the Levels Wizard, but it did nothing.

edit: did calibration over the weekend with my PC from scratch after I finished with PS3. I somehow managed to mess up my first calibration run with bad clipping in the highlights. On second run I got almost as good results with the PC as with PS3, although I had to go from 16-252, and gamma dropped (too bright) steeply after 70 IRE.

edit2: I re-calibrated with 16-235, and as expected whites are now brighter, there's no clipping of colors according to the color gradients, and the calibration required less tweaking. Calibrating to 16-235 instead of 16-25x should also improve contrast. I'm going to keep using this calibration instead of the 16-252.
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post #3137 of 3995 Old 01-20-2012, 11:12 PM
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im sorry to ask this so far into the thread, but i got the disc to load and i dont know how to calibrate correctly as in im not sure if im going through the process accurately. i have the patterns/user guide pdf, but i'm still confused with all the options, idk where to begin, where to go, and where to end....

would someone be so kind and patient as to briefly explain how you used it (order, which windows, patterns, etc....).

im using the second version (AVCHD burned to a dvd) on my panasonic 210..

thank you
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post #3138 of 3995 Old 01-21-2012, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by un55d6000 View Post

im sorry to ask this so far into the thread, but i got the disc to load and i dont know how to calibrate correctly as in im not sure if im going through the process accurately. i have the patterns/user guide pdf, but i'm still confused with all the options, idk where to begin, where to go, and where to end....

would someone be so kind and patient as to briefly explain how you used it (order, which windows, patterns, etc....).

im using the second version (AVCHD burned to a dvd) on my panasonic 210..

thank you

It's confusing, and it takes quite a bit of reading to wrap one's head around what's needed. Just be patient, read through a guide or two once or twice, and take your time. Curt Palme's unfortunately named guide is the best one I've seen, although I've read through the guide here several times.

Brief sequence of how I do it: first you need to figure out what are the proper settings for your TV or projector, BD player or video source, and AV amp if you use one. You should google that or ask in the appropriate forum as it's beyond this brief guide.

Pop the disc in, and use the 1st and 3rd patterns at "Initial Setup" (I think it's called, upper left corner of the main menu) to set your black and white points with Brightness and Contrast sliders. Set your black so that reference black marked on the screen is truly black, ie. 0-16 is indistuingashable from the background. Set white so that 235-255 is indistuingashable from the background, or so that only 255 is, but 245-254 are levels of grey. I use the former method for improved contrast at the expense of theoretically clipping some colors. I believe that's pretty much all you can do if you don't have a calibration puck.

If you do have one, then use 80% (aka IRE) and 30% grey windows from any "windows" menu to set both of them to grey using Brightness and Contrast settings in RGB controls for each of the three main colors. Use grey figures as reported by ColorHCFR or a commercial calibration software.

After that I set Saturation level by writing down the Y-value of 100% (aka IRE) white window as reported by ColorHCFR, and tweaking Saturation control until 100% red window's Y is 21% of that value.

Then I run greyscale test with 10% increments to confirm my grey levels are neutral, and see how my gamma is. If I need to tweak gamma, I do so using this guide. It's for Epson projectors, but it should be easily adaptable to any PJ or TV.

An (advanced) step is using the same guide to set up color saturation. Don't underestimate the impact of this step (color saturation), as that can have a big impact, and the approach in the linked guide is much better than usually used (which is to set saturation with 100% colors instead of 75%).

Finally I re-run greyscale test and saturation tests at 0%, 25%, 50%, 75% and 100% for each of the main and secondary colors to see if there's anything I need to tweak further.

It will take probably 10+ hours of reading, calibrating and tweaking to get to a final pleasing result. I can now do a full calibration in 60-90 minutes, but that's after investing tens of hours to reading the guides, poring through forums, and asking questions here. So it's quite an investment in time. And the software and especially the puck is not cheap if you don't have one. But I guarantee you will be very pleased with the results.
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post #3139 of 3995 Old 01-21-2012, 05:23 AM
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Just want to say thanks for this superb disc/files for free. Really great that you guys have done this and made folders for chromapure/calman/HCFR.

Hat off to you!

(my plasma picture is now good enough to eat) .....*licks it*

I'm detective John Kimball!!
I'm a cop you idiot!!
Now, I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions... and I want them answered immediately.
-What's your question Sir?
-Who is your daddy, and what does he do?
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post #3140 of 3995 Old 01-21-2012, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by un55d6000 View Post

i'm still confused with all the options, idk where to begin, where to go, and where to end....

Start by watching the HDTV Calibration video. It will generally show how to use the Basic Settings section. If you still have questions on setting the primary TV controls after watching the HDTV Calibration video and reading the Basic Settings portion of the PDF, then go ahead and ask them here.

For most people learning how to use the Basic Settings section by watching the HDTV Calibration video and reading the PDF is the end. Other people may go a step further and also try to figure out how their TV works with a few of the patterns in Misc Patterns. The rest of the disc is for measurements, which relatively few people get into.
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post #3141 of 3995 Old 01-21-2012, 03:51 PM
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well thanks jouko342 n reality, i tried and the calibration didnt work...or i should say the way i did it made it look a lot worse than outta the box. so i rreset defaults, took some ideas from the calibration and now i kinda like pq, but ill keep tryin
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post #3142 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 06:15 AM
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OK new calibration question...

So my new Onkyo 809 has this ISF Calibration setup...where on the AVR itself you can adjust nearly everything like contrast, brightness, saturation, red, green, etc.

Then it has similar modes like my projector ISF Day, ISF Night, Cinema then it has "Direct" that does NOTHING.

So help me understand IF I should be using any of this and then how. I guess the IDEA is that based on the INPUT signal I could adjust my "projector" or TV etc ?

If that is the case...do I first calibrate the RAW device, i.e. projector and THEN I go in make additional changes based on the input ? Does the AVR changes ACTUALLY really change things or does it just PROCESS changes, thus destroying the picture quality ?

Or is this really a gimmick and I should avoid it ?

If you all have more questions, I will do my best to clarify.
Thanks in advance!
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post #3143 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 08:21 AM
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Just an update to my blu-ray player the Philips BDP3020/F7, the newest firmware 1.026 seems to have killed the ability of it to read any of the burned AVS HD 709 calibration discs. I tried the HDMV and the AVCHD both burned to DVD media and they will not play. I verified the discs are good as I played them and calibrated some TV's for family using different LG blu-ray players.

If I could roll back the firmware I would, but alas I don't know if simply flashing the player to an older firmware will work fine.

For reference, the previous version that worked which I was using was v1.019 and the new version that broke compatability is 1.026

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

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post #3144 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 09:10 AM
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In a pinch if the player is capable of playing video from USB, put the mp4 version on a thumb drive and see how it works. I like using this since it is faster to navigate than than the DVD on my Samsung. However this version is missing some of the patterns ..
Good luck!
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post #3145 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 09:29 AM
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For setting brightness aka black level one method that I found that seemed to help me visually better tell when there was no pixel activity not even the slightest on the 16 stripe black pattern is to use the Color HCFR Near Black Window patterns on the AVS 709 disk. If black level is still too high after setting it initially with the black clipping pattern, turn the brightness control down to the point where the Color HCFR Near Black Pattern 0 IRE black has no pixles firing i mean none at all then go back and verify that 17 on the black clipping pattern is barely visible and you have the right brightness setting. I do not want to mislead people if this is a method that doesn't help in setting the black level easier or correctly. I just thought it might help. I have a pn51d6500 and my brightness ended up at 57 no pixel activity on the Color HCFR near black pattern 0 IRE but 17 barely visible on the Black Clipping pattern. If anyone can explain this more clearly, then please go right ahead, i don't want to confuse anyone.
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post #3146 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

In a pinch if the player is capable of playing video from USB, put the mp4 version on a thumb drive and see how it works. I like using this since it is faster to navigate than than the DVD on my Samsung. However this version is missing some of the patterns ..
Good luck!

Thanks for the suggestion, but my player doesn't have USB, only an SD slot for BD Live 2.0 content and it doesn't play mp4/avc encoded files so that's out unfortunately.

I tried to revert the firmware but the player refuses to downgrade/update to an older firmware so I guess I'm stuck for now. I contacted their support but I'm not holding my breath in that regards.

My only option at the moment is to either pick up another blu-ray player or a BD-ROM. Looking at a newer Sony BDP-S185 player but it's not on the list so not sure if the safest route would be just to get a BD-ROM drive.

Sony 32" EX400 calibrated settings

Panasonic 50" S60 calibrated settings

HTPC/Sony S5100 to Sony HT-CT150 to Panasonic 55" VT60, Sony 32" EX400, Panasonic 50" S60

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post #3147 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fairchild99 View Post

My only option at the moment is to either pick up another blu-ray player or a BD-ROM. Looking at a newer Sony BDP-S185 player but it's not on the list so not sure if the safest route would be just to get a BD-ROM drive.

DVD media playback can be a bit hit or miss, since HDMV on DVD isn't standardized and the AVCHD version comes from modified HDMV files. It's hard to say if BD-RE media would work, but if playback is listed in the player's manual the expectation would be for it to play. It's possible that a future firmware could restore DVD media playback, which eventually happened with TotalMedia Theatre.

If a player doesn't appear in the list it just means no one has replied. Except for the PS3, I'm not aware of any Sony players that are picky about the authoring.
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post #3148 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post

the AVR itself you can adjust nearly everything like contrast, brightness, saturation, red, green, etc.

Typically it's preferable to send the video to the display without any changes, and then to do the calibration at the display. If another device (ex. receiver) has features that the TV doesn't have, for example a way to alter gamma, then it may be reasonable to use those features. If the display's controls are flawed and the external device works better, that might be another reason for using a device besides the TV controls, but for simplicity the general recommendation would be to modify the signal as little as possible and make changes at the display.
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post #3149 of 3995 Old 01-22-2012, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

Typically it's preferable to send the video to the display without any changes, and then to do the calibration at the display. If another device (ex. receiver) has features that the TV doesn't have, for example a way to alter gamma, then it may be reasonable to use those features. If the display's controls are flawed and the external device works better, that might be another reason for using a device besides the TV controls, but for simplicity the general recommendation would be to modify the signal as little as possible and make changes at the display.

Ok thanks much!
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post #3150 of 3995 Old 01-23-2012, 06:16 AM
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The patterns are awesome!!!
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