AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 127 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-27-2013, 08:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 412 Post(s)
Liked: 596
Your set would certainly benefit from some basic settings adjustments which can be accomplished with the disc. The motion blur issue is a little more problematic Not sure the disc would benefit you in that area. Have you tried the LCD forum there is probably a thread for your particular set ?

64F8500
55ST60
Harmony 650
Sony XT1 Soundbase
OPPO 103d
Calman Enthusiast/I1Pro/I1D3
chunon is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-27-2013, 09:08 AM
Member
 
galneon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edo Glvez View Post

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

Totally forgot about that site. Thanks!
galneon is offline  
Old 12-05-2013, 11:56 AM
Newbie
 
SeeNoWeevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10

This is a really well put together tool, thanks.

 

Has anyone tried it with the PS4 using a dvd? If I calibrate black level with the basic patterns I'm seeing very crushed blacks during gameplay. PS4 and TV are both set to Full RGB. Reverting back to limited RGB fixes this but it seems like a bug that the levels don't match between video playback and game. 

 

For now I'm using this image in the PS4's browser to calibrate black level

 

http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

 

EDIT: Well it seems my screen Sony KDL-40W2000 doesn't support full RGB (is there any way to confirm this?) Set the PS4 back to limited (or rather auto) and now the disc calibration gives better results. There's something very odd going on with the PS4's levels though. I calibrated with the image linked above, started a game, went back to the browser image and it was way too dark! I'm sure the console is switching levels on the fly.

SeeNoWeevil is offline  
Old 12-15-2013, 02:14 PM
Member
 
bombertodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: So Cal
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 24

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone that made/contributed to this calibration tool. It's made my TV's even better. 


Klipsch RF-82II, RC-62II
2x Dayton Ultimax 12, Behringer iNUKE3000DSP
Denon 2113ci
bombertodd is offline  
Old 12-15-2013, 07:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audioguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Not far from Atlanta - but far enough!
Posts: 3,994
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 803 Post(s)
Liked: 505
Anyone interested in burning and sending me a copy of the most recent version of this calibration disk. I am more than willing to pay for your effort, shipping and some profit. I don't want to buy a BD burner for just this disk.


If interested please PM me. Thanks

New Theater

Romans 10:9-10;17


Obsessed is just a word the ill-informed use to describe the dedicated
audioguy is online now  
Old 12-15-2013, 10:33 PM
Member
 
bombertodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: So Cal
Posts: 139
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 24

Do you have a receiver with USB support? You can put the files on flash drive and play them off of it. 


Klipsch RF-82II, RC-62II
2x Dayton Ultimax 12, Behringer iNUKE3000DSP
Denon 2113ci
bombertodd is offline  
Old 12-16-2013, 02:09 AM
Member
 
azyme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Any chance the HD-DVD version download is still available?
azyme is offline  
Old 12-16-2013, 07:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 412 Post(s)
Liked: 596
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Anyone interested in burning and sending me a copy of the most recent version of this calibration disk. I am more than willing to pay for your effort, shipping and some profit. I don't want to buy a BD burner for just this disk.


If interested please PM me. Thanks

You don't need a bd burner for the AVC-HD version will play on almost all bluray players.

64F8500
55ST60
Harmony 650
Sony XT1 Soundbase
OPPO 103d
Calman Enthusiast/I1Pro/I1D3
chunon is online now  
Old 12-16-2013, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
alluringreality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by azyme View Post

Any chance the HD-DVD version download is still available?

There are a couple links at the bottom of the release notes.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration/2340#post_19413135
azyme likes this.
alluringreality is offline  
Old 12-16-2013, 12:36 PM
Member
 
azyme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

There are a couple links at the bottom of the release notes.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration/2340#post_19413135

Thank you.
azyme is offline  
Old 01-01-2014, 08:02 AM
Newbie
 
crossfacebleu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Hi.

 

I'm using this disc in .MP4 format with my PS3. In Color Clipping, when very close to my television's screen, I can see noise (...lack of noise in reds' pattern lines elevates noise in greens' or blues', varying). After calibrating so, say, blue peaks at 235 without this noise, I will still see, past 235, hardly visible spaces between where the pattern lines would be (which may appear as noise or as 'dark', i.e. just darker). I've changed several settings including contrast but this doesn't decrease visibility. The issue is most clear with my reds; regardless of which settings I fiddle with, I can't seem to get my reds' peak at 235. I'm unsure of whether or not this is fine -- to be expected --, or something to fix.

 

I'm wondering for some recommendation as to what I can do to resolve this, if needed.

 

Thank you.

crossfacebleu is offline  
Old 01-02-2014, 01:03 PM
VBB
Advanced Member
 
VBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 668
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by crossfacebleu View Post

Hi.

I'm using this disc in .MP4 format with my PS3. In Color Clipping, when very close to my television's screen, I can see noise (...lack of noise in reds' pattern lines elevates noise in greens' or blues', varying). After calibrating so, say, blue peaks at 235 without this noise, I will still see, past 235, hardly visible spaces between where the pattern lines would be (which may appear as noise or as 'dark', i.e. just darker). I've changed several settings including contrast but this doesn't decrease visibility. The issue is most clear with my reds; regardless of which settings I fiddle with, I can't seem to get my reds' peak at 235. I'm unsure of whether or not this is fine -- to be expected --, or something to fix.

I'm wondering for some recommendation as to what I can do to resolve this, if needed.

Thank you.

That's perfectly normal. On my TV (and probably most), blue also clips first, so as long as you don't see any of the primaries clip before 235 you're fine.

Henry
Sharp LC-70LE857U
Onkyo HT-RC360
Mede8er MED600X3D

DarbeeVision Darblet DVP-5000

Synology DS1813+

X-Rite i1Display Pro

VBB is offline  
Old 01-03-2014, 05:02 PM
Newbie
 
crossfacebleu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for replying, helped me out. Knowing this, I am now wondering how clear -- in clipping sections (including, e.g., 'Color' and 'White') of the disc -- the pattern lines should be. Is it ideal all -- red, green, and blue -- approach barely visible come 235, or remain and don't fade? I've calibrated clipping with the idea red, green, and blue should all have their lines go at least until 235 as instructed by the manual, this achieved by shifting contrast. I don't own tints, so am unable to calibrate colour levels, which seem key before calibrating clipping (especially since my colour levels appear dull); is there any considerably 'fine' way of calibrating colour degrees without using tints... or without them should levels remain manufacturer's default?
crossfacebleu is offline  
Old 01-04-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
alluringreality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by crossfacebleu View Post

Is it ideal all -- red, green, and blue -- approach barely visible come 235, or remain and don't fade?

The ideal is to show all video information above 235, but realistically displays have a limited amount of contrast between black and the brightest white. Since commercial video sources, like Blu-ray, do not appear to commonly use the video information above 235, it may be reasonable to ignore the ideal and come closer to 235, depending on how the display performs. Because various displays perform slightly differently, measurements are typically used for more precise information. Some displays may have irregularities near where the colors clip, so for people that do not have access to measurements, the manual suggests a slightly conservative setting that allows a few bars above 235 to flash. I'll assume many people prefer to ignore the ideal for a brighter reference white, so I merely caution that clipping patterns only provide a limited amount of information, and when using a high contrast setting it's a good idea to at least check the effects near 235 from other sources like Misc. Patterns A2 and A3.

Quote:
I don't own tints, so am unable to calibrate colour levels, which seem key before calibrating clipping (especially since my colour levels appear dull); is there any considerably 'fine' way of calibrating colour degrees without using tints... or without them should levels remain manufacturer's default?

From a calibration standpoint, the ways to set a color control are either with a color filter, a blue-mode on the TV, or with measurements. Personally I tend to question the accuracy of color filters on digital displays, but if your display does not offer a blue-mode, the THX glasses mentioned in the manual can be purchased from http://costore.com/thx/productthumbnails.asp As far as the accuracy of the default color setting that will probably vary to some extent depending on the TV model. The default color setting on my Sony happens to be very close to measurements, but unless you own a popular display that gets measured by a lot of people it might be difficult to guess at the typical accuracy of the default color setting.
alluringreality is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Question on source patterns.

I have multiple devices connected to my AVR, then the AVR is connected to the HDTV.

Instead of calibrating each devices to the HDTV, is it best to copy the MP4 files onto a USB stick and use the USB port on the HDTV to display patterns for calibration?

I am thinking this is probably the best option and you're truly calibration the picture on the HDTV, regardless of the source and its interference.

Besides, I have devices that won't be able to display the patterns such as the Roku and Wii.

Any feedbacks?

Thanks
smokarz is offline  
Old 01-11-2014, 07:55 AM
Newbie
 
HDandPAL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray player

 

I've downloaded and burnt the AVCHD format of  "AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration" onto a DVD+R. It works fine with the Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray player. Note: my BD-P1500 has the latest software S/W: 11125.01_063008-1_XEF and is Region B/2 (BD/DVD)

HDandPAL is offline  
Old 01-11-2014, 11:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 76
I downloaded the AVCHD (.7z) file.

Burn it onto the DVD disk, but I am unable to play it on my Sony BDP-S360

The Sony blu-ray player is compatible with AVCHD files.

But when I press play, I keep getting the message "Ext Memory in the rear of the unit not recognize".

I just don't understand the message. Anything I need to do on my Sonly blu-ray player settings?

Thanks
smokarz is offline  
Old 01-11-2014, 01:43 PM
Member
 
apannyvt60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: West Covina, CA
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11

First off, hats off to the guys for making this a possibility. I was on the verge of buying the WoW calibration disk then I found this link! Woohoo! Saved 30 bucks and won't have to explain to wifey why I bought a blu ray disk that we cannot watch. LOL.

 

Anyway, so whilst I was researching on ways to calibrate my Panny VT60, I came about HD Nation's vid about calibrating TV's (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xe8mdd_free-hdtv-calibration-part-1-hdmi-s_school) and they suggested to actually reset both TV and Blu-ray player to factory default settings before calibrating using the disk. I honestly didn't want to do it because I will probably have to redo the firmware updates to both my TV and blu-ray player and from what I read, you actually don't need to do it. Did anybody had to reset their TV's to factory default before using the disk?

 

Thanks!


Dattebayo!
apannyvt60 is offline  
Old 01-11-2014, 05:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I downloaded the AVCHD (.7z) file.

Burn it onto the DVD disk, but I am unable to play it on my Sony BDP-S360

The Sony blu-ray player is compatible with AVCHD files.

But when I press play, I keep getting the message "Ext Memory in the rear of the unit not recognize".

I just don't understand the message. Anything I need to do on my Sonly blu-ray player settings?

Thanks


Please ignore. It was due to my burning with Power ISO.

I burn another disk with Imgburn and it works beautifully.

Thanks for the disk guys.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk 2
smokarz is offline  
Old 01-12-2014, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
alluringreality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Instead of calibrating each devices to the HDTV, is it best to copy the MP4 files onto a USB stick and use the USB port on the HDTV to display patterns for calibration?

Besides, I have devices that won't be able to display the patterns such as the Roku and Wii.

If the USB stick is convenient it could be used, but if you watch other sources, it's preferable to test if the USB matches other devices. Ideally you would have patterns to test each device device or signal that you use, but I also realize that not all sources will be able to display test patterns. The basic idea of testing each device is that if one device is different you can set the display to account for the difference. Personally I cannot think of much inherent advantage of the USB stick, and to me it's just another possible video source.

As digital devices it is possible your equipment by default may simply output a limited (most video devices) or full range signal (computers), and as long as the HDTV is set correctly for the input type everything might match. The four devices that I happen to own, which will play video test patterns, all result in the same settings at the display, as long as the HDTV is correctly set for a limited or full-range input. Since the multiple devices I own result in the same settings at the display, I consider it reasonable to assume that the devices are outputting typical video or computer levels. I have checked my devices against a pattern generator to be absolutely sure, but for most people I would say that if you check two or three devices and get the same settings then it's probably safe to say that the devices are outputting typical levels. Since I'm under the impression that my TV settings are correct for a typical input, I just use the same TV settings for other signals that do no have a way to display test patterns.
alluringreality is offline  
Old 01-12-2014, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
alluringreality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,217
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 51 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by apannyvt60 View Post

they suggested to actually reset both TV and Blu-ray player to factory default settings before calibrating using the disk. I honestly didn't want to do it because I will probably have to redo the firmware updates to both my TV and blu-ray player and from what I read,

If the device has a way to reset settings, I don't have any reason to suspect such a thing might change the firmware. If you do not want to use an option to go back to default settings, I don't see a reason why it would be absolutely necessary. Many modern electronics do have settings that are generally best left at the default settings. so I sort of get the intent of what they were saying. Basically I can see some possible advantages of each viewpoint, and as long as the devices haven't been changed for things like mis-matched levels, the discussion isn't very important either way in my opinion.
alluringreality is offline  
Old 01-12-2014, 09:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 76
I doubt setting to defaults would change firmware.
smokarz is offline  
Old 01-12-2014, 10:16 AM
Newbie
 
Behemoth1702's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I just hopped in here to give a big THANK YOU to all AVS HD 709 contributors!

 

I used the mp4 version to calibrate my HDTV and now it looks gorgious! I love the natural colors, great blacks, detailed whites. I could not have done it without the great folks from AVS.

 

Thanks! :)

Behemoth1702 is offline  
Old 01-12-2014, 05:07 PM
Member
 
apannyvt60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: West Covina, CA
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post


If the device has a way to reset settings, I don't have any reason to suspect such a thing might change the firmware. If you do not want to use an option to go back to default settings, I don't see a reason why it would be absolutely necessary. Many modern electronics do have settings that are generally best left at the default settings. so I sort of get the intent of what they were saying. Basically I can see some possible advantages of each viewpoint, and as long as the devices haven't been changed for things like mis-matched levels, the discussion isn't very important either way in my opinion.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I doubt setting to defaults would change firmware.

 

Thanks for your replies. I used the AVS Calibration disk without resetting both my TV and blu-ray to default settings.

 

I downloaded the AVCHD format, used a DVD-RW and burnt the .iso image using Power ISO. Worked perfectly on my LG BP530 blu-ray player.

 

However, I think I'm a little bit off on my calibration because I had to set my Contrast to 100 (max setting) just to set my white levels correctly as suggested on the document using the slide in chapter 3 - Basic Setting.

 

Here are my settings as follows:

 

 

Anyone with almost the same numbers as mine? I have a Panny VT60 and I calibrated the TV in a bright room.

 

Thanks!


Dattebayo!
apannyvt60 is offline  
Old 01-14-2014, 11:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mbroadus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Austin, TX & Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,100
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Instead of burning a disk, would it be possible or has anyone used their laptop that has HDMI output to run test patterns?

Panasonic P60VT60 Calibrated by Chad B / Marantz NR-1504 / SVS PC-2000 / Velodyne CHT Front Row / AppleTV 3 / Sony PS4
mbroadus is offline  
Old 01-14-2014, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chunon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wilmington Ohio
Posts: 5,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 412 Post(s)
Liked: 596
I have never tried that but would the resolution be correct ? You can download the MP4 files to a USB stick and play them that way. Burning the disc is very easy if you have a dvd burner.

64F8500
55ST60
Harmony 650
Sony XT1 Soundbase
OPPO 103d
Calman Enthusiast/I1Pro/I1D3
chunon is online now  
Old 01-14-2014, 12:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post

Instead of burning a disk, would it be possible or has anyone used their laptop that has HDMI output to run test patterns?



I have downloaded the MP4 files and feed them to my projector via my HTPC.
smokarz is offline  
Old 01-14-2014, 01:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mbroadus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Austin, TX & Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,100
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Liked: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

I have downloaded the MP4 files and feed them to my projector via my HTPC.

I would love to build a HTPC but don't know where to start.

Panasonic P60VT60 Calibrated by Chad B / Marantz NR-1504 / SVS PC-2000 / Velodyne CHT Front Row / AppleTV 3 / Sony PS4
mbroadus is offline  
Old 01-14-2014, 01:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
smokarz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hartford, CT USA
Posts: 3,291
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Look in the HTPC forums. Lots of great info in there
smokarz is offline  
Old 01-14-2014, 01:56 PM
Newbie
 
Behemoth1702's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbroadus View Post

Instead of burning a disk, would it be possible or has anyone used their laptop that has HDMI output to run test patterns?

The problem here is that you have a middleman - the PC. You are not getting honest output from the HDMI output when playing the files on a PC media player.

I for instance lack the detail above 234 and below 16 when playing the files with VLC player or media player classic. That is not ideal when you're looking for perfect levels of black & white.

Get a USB stick if you can. Or make sure you're getting the most honest output from your PC/player.

I made a thread on this problem here, no replies yet. frown.gif
Behemoth1702 is offline  
 

Tags
Lcd Hdtv , Led Hdtv , lg bp530
Gear in this thread - bp530 by PriceGrabber.com
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off