AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 130 - AVS Forum
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post #3871 of 4027 Old 04-09-2014, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5h4d0w View Post

I'm just preparing to calibrate two projectors and while trying out this disc on my PC monitor, I came across a curious issue.

No matter what I do, I can't get it to display values below 17. Even though e.g. in Photoshop, I am able to differentiate between 0 and 1. Same goes for the White Clipping test. Photoshop goes up to 254 but the White Clipping only to 234.

I've tried MPC-HC with CoreAVC and madVR, MPC with CoreAVC and VLC. madVR is set to 0-255 and I tried all possible combinations of input/output levels in CoreAVC.
Also, I have the video output range in my graphics card driver (AMD Catalyst) set to 0-255.
What else could be at fault here?

Sounds like it's working right for how you have it configured. When you are outputting PC Levels (aka 0-255, RGB Full, etc) for video, the standard Video Levels (aka 16-235, RGB Limited, etc) have to be expanded to PC Levels. This means mapping 16 and below to 0, 235 and above to 255, and finally 16-235 are scaled to 0-255. So when you're using PC Levels, the bars in the AVS HD 709 patterns don't contain the pixel values they're labeled with, and you will never see bars below 17 or above 234. Using "Full" loses the BTB and WTW values, and confusingly, it is "Limited" mode that outputs the video untouched, with the full range 0-255 that it might contain. The BTB values don't appear in real content, but WTW can and does. See the articles on Brightness and Contrast here for more:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/2nd-edition-articles/

As for viewing picture files in Photoshop, this expansion, of course, is not done. If you were to configure your video for the standard Video Levels, you could take a screenshot of Black Clipping and White Clipping and observe the full range of values, with the bars containing the pixel values they are labeled with.
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post #3872 of 4027 Old 04-09-2014, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

it is "Limited" mode that outputs the video untouched

I'm not familiar with the CoreAVC settings, but as noted by sawfish the Catalyst Control Center (CCC) setting for Limited (16-235) would be expected to output video black with RGB or luma values of 16 as indicated on the image. I think the CCC dynamic range setting shown only affects video levels, and I believe the computer will still typically use 0 for black in non-video applications. For most computer use it makes sense to have black at the same value regardless if you are watching video, so typically on computers video 16 is converted to 0 as noted to match the 0-255 range. The posted image indicates that the video has been expanded to the 0-255 computer range, as generally expected with the CCC full (0-255) dynamic range setting.

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The BTB values don't appear in real content, but WTW can and does.

While the standards do allow for darker than black and brighter than white information, video on commercial Blu-rays and DVDs appears to be commonly mastered to the 16-235 video range. I'm not sure if other video content, such as live television, makes whiter than white information any more common. The Blu-ray and DVD video examples I looked at where a channel clearly exceeded reference white appeared to be little more than artifacts from the encoding and decoding process, so personally I have not seen video examples to support the linked suggestion that modern displays are not contrast limited and should clearly be set to display all information above reference white.
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post #3873 of 4027 Old 04-10-2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Sounds like it's working right for how you have it configured. When you are outputting PC Levels (aka 0-255, RGB Full, etc) for video, the standard Video Levels (aka 16-235, RGB Limited, etc) have to be expanded to PC Levels. This means mapping 16 and below to 0, 235 and above to 255, and finally 16-235 are scaled to 0-255. So when you're using PC Levels, the bars in the AVS HD 709 patterns don't contain the pixel values they're labeled with, and you will never see bars below 17 or above 234. Using "Full" loses the BTB and WTW values, and confusingly, it is "Limited" mode that outputs the video untouched, with the full range 0-255 that it might contain..

Before discussing this further, I'd just like to mention that I got it working by setting the video output of my graphics card to 16-235. And in CoreAVC either input/output to the same range, doesn't seem to matter which. But "Auto" is a killer...
So - thank you very much! smile.gif

And I just realized - is it really true that VLC expands to 0-255, no matter what you do? At least I found this discussion here and was not successful in getting it to work myself.

Of course... looking at a video, it hit me that one obviously usually doesn't want to see the BTB values. As 16 is black in video, everything will look washed out on a display calibrated for full range. I think I'll have to meditate a bit on this. wink.gif


==== (... really just more thinking and rambling which may help somebody else who stumbles across this understand it as well ...) ====
I do understand the process of clipping during the scaling to 0-255. But I figured that if you set everything to full range in the player it doesn't get scaled and then... right. I guess the graphics card driver still sees the video as video and not full range, so IT does the scaling and the clipping happens.
And by the looks of it, it seems like "Auto" settings really aren't the HTPC user's friend? Because if I don't override the Dynamic Range (and set it to limited) in the AMD Catalyst, it seems to scale to full range automatically...
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post #3874 of 4027 Old 04-10-2014, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5h4d0w View Post

Before discussing this further, I'd just like to mention that I got it working by setting the video output of my graphics card to 16-235. And in CoreAVC either input/output to the same range, doesn't seem to matter which. But "Auto" is a killer...
So - thank you very much! smile.gif

Glad you got it working.

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And I just realized - is it really true that VLC expands to 0-255, no matter what you do? At least I found this discussion here and was not successful in getting it to work myself.

Don't know. I only ever used VLC on my PC monitor, which is at PC levels.

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Of course... looking at a video, it hit me that one obviously usually doesn't want to see the BTB values. As 16 is black in video, everything will look washed out on a display calibrated for full range. I think I'll have to meditate a bit on this. wink.gif

The value of BTB is in helping you set Brightness on your display when using test patterns. If the source and display are both at Video Levels, then for the AVS HD 709 Black Clipping pattern, Brightness is set by making Bar 16 invisible against the black background, with Bar 17 just visible. You should never see BTB in "real" content; if you do, that means Brightness is set too high.

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==== (... really just more thinking and rambling which may help somebody else who stumbles across this understand it as well ...) ====
I do understand the process of clipping during the scaling to 0-255. But I figured that if you set everything to full range in the player it doesn't get scaled and then... right. I guess the graphics card driver still sees the video as video and not full range, so IT does the scaling and the clipping happens.
And by the looks of it, it seems like "Auto" settings really aren't the HTPC user's friend? Because if I don't override the Dynamic Range (and set it to limited) in the AMD Catalyst, it seems to scale to full range automatically...

AMD cards have not been my friends in a long time. I don't know what the proper settings are for them. For Nvidia cards, I leave them at their defaults for use with WMC and XBMC. More on that here:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=180884

For a detailed discussion on setting up an HTPC, at least with Nvidia cards, see my messages in this thread and the post 10k quoted in his message:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1511558/reference-as-correct-as-possible-output-from-a-laptop#post_24209683
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1511558/reference-as-correct-as-possible-output-from-a-laptop#post_24208649

In particular, I have my HTPC output Video Levels for my TV which of course is also set for Video Levels, and that's perfect for video. It preserves BTB and WTW and is consistent with my other video devices. However, the trade-off is crushed blacks and whites for desktop programs. For what I use it for, that's not a problem at all. However, if I wanted to use it for critical photo viewing, games, etc, I would compromise and configure video for PC Levels, so that desktop and video would be consistent with each other.
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post #3875 of 4027 Old 04-10-2014, 08:42 PM
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How do you deal with an Intel Onboard Graphics Accelerator? when it comes to matching video levels , btb, wtw setting brightness properly.
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post #3876 of 4027 Old 04-11-2014, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

However, if I wanted to use it for critical photo viewing, games, etc, I would compromise and configure video for PC Levels, so that desktop and video would be consistent with each other.

And that's what I will do, as a friend wants to watch movies as well as play PC and 360 games on his projector. I figure the most sensible way to go about it is to configure it for full range and let the graphics card driver and the 360 do a limited to full range scaling for content that originally has a limited range.

Sure, I guess there might be slight banding issues or something due to the conversion and maybe some detail may be lost due to WTW clipping but... as long as the shadow detail is preserved and there is flexibility regarding the content displayed, while having the correct level of black most of the time, it's fine by me.

And... yeah, I guess the BTB values can help a bit but... you have to dial down the brightness until 16 isn't visible anyway and 17 is only faintly visible. So with clipped values, you only have the faintly visible 17 as a reference... meh. Besides, as it is a CRT projector, chances are that he wants to take advantage of the possibility of having rich blacks while crushing the darkest couple of values anyway. At least I would. There's nothing more awesome than e.g. that one scene in Equilibrium where you suddenly sit in a pitch-black room and only hear whispering... wink.gif
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post #3877 of 4027 Old 04-11-2014, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by hungro View Post

How do you deal with an Intel Onboard Graphics Accelerator? when it comes to matching video levels , btb, wtw setting brightness properly.

My only experience with Intel graphics is the i5-4670 Haswell graphics on my Z87 system that powers my PC monitor, so it's at PC Levels, auto-calibrated with Calman. I leave the Intel driver at its defaults, and it works fine with the programs I use, WMC, XBMC, and PotPlayer. I have an Nvidia GT430 in the same system that powers my TV, and it also is at its defaults; the TV, however, is at Video Levels. I only ever view PotPlayer on the monitor. WMC adjusts to whichever display it's on, using PC Levels on the monitor and Video Levels on the TV. For XBMC Gotham, I set up XBMC profiles to use 16-235 on the TV and 0-255 on the monitor; I can switch between them by pressing a button on my remote. YMMV. I have no knowledge of LAV filters, codec packs, etc and no desire to get into all that; from skimming discussions, they introduce their own complications, and I've found plenty to satisfy me already. smile.gif
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post #3878 of 4027 Old 04-11-2014, 02:43 PM
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Sawfish,

How does that GT 430 work? I have a media PC with Intel HD 4000 graphics, and have HDMI sync issues. I never really spent any time working out issues, but if a separate card would help, that might save me some time.

Thanks for any insight.

Mark
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post #3879 of 4027 Old 04-13-2014, 11:59 AM
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Dark rainy Sunday... movie excuse!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5h4d0w View Post

Of course... looking at a video, it hit me that one obviously usually doesn't want to see the BTB values. As 16 is black in video, everything will look washed out on a display calibrated for full range. I think I'll have to meditate a bit on this. wink.gif
During my non-expert attempt at improving my TV picture using the AVS HD-709 calibration files/disc I too noticed the washed out color using RGB-Full from sources. Doing the "wrong" thing by setting my TV's color gamut to WIDE helped and then when checking with AVS HD-709's #4 flashing color bars (TV's blue-only mode), the blue is completely solid without flashing with both color and tint. When the TV is selected to color gamut BT709, the blue boxes (color side) have a slight outline (embossed center box). It appears that using gamut WIDE on my TV gives better flashing color bar results. I also notice that with movies, using WIDE does change the shade (darkening?) of colors; this may not be technically correct, but colors are more vibrant using RGB-Full.

I need to reread sawfish's response again after more coffee ; P
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post #3880 of 4027 Old 04-13-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kele View Post

Dark rainy Sunday... movie excuse!
During my non-expert attempt at improving my TV picture using the AVS HD-709 calibration files/disc I too noticed the washed out color using RGB-Full from sources. Doing the "wrong" thing by setting my TV's color gamut to WIDE helped and then when checking with AVS HD-709's #4 flashing color bars (TV's blue-only mode), the blue is completely solid without flashing with both color and tint. When the TV is selected to color gamut BT709, the blue boxes (color side) have a slight outline (embossed center box). It appears that using gamut WIDE on my TV gives better flashing color bar results. I also notice that with movies, using WIDE does change the shade (darkening?) of colors; this may not be technically correct, but colors are more vibrant using RGB-Full.

I need to reread sawfish's response again after more coffee ; P

Using color gamut Wide over saturates your colors appearing more bright , vivid and lively but this is not accurate to where content is mastered which is the Rec 709 colorspace. You can get accurate colors to the Rec 709 standards if you use the appropriate color patterns and an accurate meter. If your Tv has CMS settings then use these instead of your color control and dial in the colors that way. If you only have color controls and no CMS then use the blu-only mode , this is as accurate as your going to get without the use of a meter . I am not quite sure what your situation is so I am just giving a few pointers based on what you said above. RGB Full, you should be using YCbCr instead seems like there is an issue with using RGB , a mismatch perhaps from one source to another. I don't quite understand what could be happening or even explaining it properly, so I won't.
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post #3881 of 4027 Old 04-13-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Sawfish,

How does that GT 430 work? I have a media PC with Intel HD 4000 graphics, and have HDMI sync issues. I never really spent any time working out issues, but if a separate card would help, that might save me some time.

Thanks for any insight.

Mark

The GT430 has been great the past three years. No HDMI issues, but I connect it directly to my TV for video and use motherboard S/PDIF to the AVR for audio. It works seamlessly alongside the Haswell graphics with the Z87 chipset. My understanding is that earlier CPUs and other Haswell chipsets require additional software to use a second card.
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post #3882 of 4027 Old 05-08-2014, 10:59 AM
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Great tool, thank you AVS! Now after reading through most of this thread over the last few days, I still have a question someone might be able to help me with. I have an Optoma HD65, and I've been able to get a pretty good picture with this calibration tool. But, this projector does not have a Tint control, I have Red Bias, Gain, etc, etc. I have the THX Blue glasses. I've been able to adjust the blue pretty well with them, but not the other colors easily.
Does anyone have some suggestions I can use to dial these setting in better without the need to buy additional filter glasses? There must be some rule-of-thumbs or something I could try as a guide to set them a bit better.
I know this projector is limited so I'm not expecting a miracle, but to get it closer to optimal would be great.
Thanks,
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post #3883 of 4027 Old 05-12-2014, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mychaelp View Post

this projector does not have a Tint control

Personally I'm not a fan of color filters for digital displays, based on comparisons against meters. Using color filters to set color is an accepted practice, but the displays I've looked at generally happened to have the default color setting closer to the meter result than what the color filter produced. Without knowing details of projection setups and that projector model, my initial reaction is that not having a tint control might not be a big deal.

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I have Red Bias, Gain, etc, etc. I have the THX Blue glasses.

Bias and Gain are grayscale controls. Those controls are generally intended to change the amount of red, green, or blue in the grayscale to adjust the shade of gray. Typically the idea is to have some sort of a reference for gray and then you use those controls to try to produce that gray. Often people use meters when setting those controls. The other reference for gray typically brought up on the forum is a gray card and a light, which can also be used for comparison, but the sorts of recommended combinations may cost as much as some of the cheapest meters. If the display is far off you might be able to adjust the controls to make it produce a more uniform gray between dark and bright scenes, but generally most people don't have a reference for D65 gray, so many times the easiest way is to use a meter for a reference in adjusting gray.

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There must be some rule-of-thumbs

A quick Google search indicates the projector has a color temp setting. If you don't want to purchase a new meter or to pay someone with equipment and experience for adjusting Bias and Gain, then I would suggest reading feedback from other owners on what might be the most accurate color temp setting for your setup and just use that while leaving the Bias and Gain at the defaults. There is some "steaming rat" calibration discussion online, where I think the general idea is to somewhat arbitrarily choose settings to make images look more "real", but personally I doubt if that sort of thing necessarily results in anything more uniform than trying to learn about the projector's settings from other owners that may have measured their own displays.
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post #3884 of 4027 Old 05-12-2014, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mychaelp View Post

. I have an Optoma HD65, and I've been able to get a pretty good picture with this calibration tool. But, this projector does not have a Tint control,

Page 20 of the owner's manual shows a tint control:

 

http://marketing.optomausa.com/PDFs/usermanuals/Optoma_HD65_Manual.PDF

 

In this digital world we live in with digital signal transfer, I'm not sure it is even necessary when using HDMI cords, at least if you have a truly neutral white/gray screen. It may only be necessary for analog inputs.


In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #3885 of 4027 Old 05-14-2014, 05:52 PM
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Hi. I am looking to calibrate my htpc with this tool. I have an e450 apu (so amd).
I was reading the latest comments where someone wrote that with the rgb full output this tool won't work. is the case also if my tv supports pc levels (wide) or in that case i can enable the option and it works? Because actually rgb full should be the best output setting even for YCbCr output since it is all converted to rgb anyway from the gpu internally so it will save a useless conversion. ..
Thanks in advance for the help
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post #3886 of 4027 Old 05-14-2014, 10:30 PM
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I would really like to try this disc out on my two new Sony TVs but the download links seem to be dead.

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post #3887 of 4027 Old 05-16-2014, 06:54 AM
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AVS HD 709 downloads - http://color.spectracal.com/downloads/calibration-discs

Download and burn with ImageBurn.

A search led me to this vid where I found the link above. They cover cal basics with the AVS HD 709, starts at 13:42.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG0Xgpqk7EY
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post #3888 of 4027 Old 05-16-2014, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ronstang View Post

I would really like to try this disc out on my two new Sony TVs but the download links seem to be dead.

I can't seem to get access to the Wuala files, so I moved the w6rz links to the first page. I think the downloads should now work.
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post #3889 of 4027 Old 05-16-2014, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I was reading the latest comments where someone wrote that with the rgb full output this tool won't work.

The calibration video will go through the same processing as other video sources. From a calibration standpoint, the ideal recommendation is to output video as a limited range, which retains the extra video information beyond reference white and black. In the video area of Catalyst Control Center there is a Limited (16-235) option, but generally non-video applications will still be output as full-range. Most people don't want to deal with having different black and white levels depending if they are watching video or using other computer applications, so usually either video or the computer range is scaled to fit a full or limited range. By default most computers will scale video to full-range, which introduces some grayscale banding in video. Most video images are not made of primarily gray values, and most commercial discs do not seem to be mastered to include the range beyond reference black and white, so realistically most people will not notice how video grayscale has some 2 bit steps when converted to full-range and the extended information is cut off. The pixel format option in Catalyst Control Center can output the desktop as a limited range, but video seems to go from limited to full-range and back to limited, so the limited pixel format option could have its own video alterations. Whatever you choose to do with the video playback on a computer, that's generally how the disc is expected to also play.
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post #3890 of 4027 Old 05-16-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

The calibration video will go through the same processing as other video sources. From a calibration standpoint, the ideal recommendation is to output video as a limited range, which retains the extra video information beyond reference white and black. In the video area of Catalyst Control Center there is a Limited (16-235) option, but generally non-video applications will still be output as full-range. Most people don't want to deal with having different black and white levels depending if they are watching video or using other computer applications, so usually either video or the computer range is scaled to fit a full or limited range. By default most computers will scale video to full-range, which introduces some grayscale banding in video. Most video images are not made of primarily gray values, and most commercial discs do not seem to be mastered to include the range beyond reference black and white, so realistically most people will not notice how video grayscale has some 2 bit steps when converted to full-range and the extended information is cut off. The pixel format option in Catalyst Control Center can output the desktop as a limited range, but video seems to go from limited to full-range and back to limited, so the limited pixel format option could have its own video alterations. Whatever you choose to do with the video playback on a computer, that's generally how the disc is expected to also play.
The point of my question was: I can set limited range easily and force the software to output limited range (the software allows it). But the gpu works in rgb full so i don't loose anyway the accuracy?
Btw correct me if i'm wrong. I get a cut off of information converting from limited to full scale only if i watch it with a tv set to limited range. If the tv supports the full range i don't get crushed blacks and the flickr should work ok..
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post #3891 of 4027 Old 05-16-2014, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by phate89 View Post

The point of my question was: I can set limited range easily and force the software to output limited range (the software allows it). But the gpu works in rgb full so i don't loose anyway the accuracy?

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Generally video is expected to be output as a limited range. The limited range can fit within the full range, and if you do that there isn't necessarily any loss of accuracy from the original video information. The Dynamic Range Limited setting will output video as a limited range, while the computer still operates with a full range signal. Most people don't do that, since black and white levels are not consistent for video and the computer desktop.

Commercial video is mastered to a limited range, which means reference black is represented as 16 and white is 235, and there is some extra information beyond black and white in 1-15 and 236-254. Computers typically use the full range, where 0 is black and 255 is white, and there is no extra information beyond black and white. The limited video range can essentially be output within the full range (Dynamic Range Limited setting), but then the computer desktop (0-255) and video (16-235) have non-matching black and white levels. If you retain the limited range in this sort of way there isn't any expected loss in accuracy, but generally it's not convenient, due to the non-matching levels. In order to get around the black and white levels not matching, the default settings (Dynamic Range Full) scales video to the full range, where video 16 goes to 0 and video 235 goes to 255. Scaling video to full range introduces some gray banding, as 220 gray levels are converted to 256 levels, and the extra video information beyond reference black and white (1-15 & 236-254) is thrown away.

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Btw correct me if i'm wrong. I get a cut off of information converting from limited to full scale only if i watch it with a tv set to limited range.

The default settings intend to convert video from a limited range to a full range, so that black and white levels from the video will match the computer desktop. The extra information (1-15 & 236-254) from the video is removed in this process. While the extra information is not necessarily intended to be displayed, it was intended to be passed to the TV. Regardless how your TV is set, the computer is removing part of the video information when it scales video to a full range. Converting video to a full range for computer use is very practical, since it makes black and white video levels match typical computer levels, but it's not necessarily ideal from a calibration standpoint. From a calibration standpoint, the ideal recommendation is to output video as a limited range (16-235), which isn't very practical for computers, since they typically use the full range for black to white.
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post #3892 of 4027 Old 05-17-2014, 09:57 AM
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I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Generally video is expected to be output as a limited range. The limited range can fit within the full range, and if you do that there isn't necessarily any loss of accuracy from the original video information.
my point is this:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271418#post1271418
Actually all gpu elaborate data in rgb only internally. I know that the optimal value is the same as the video i'm going to watch but with a gpu is not possible because even if i play Ycbcr 4:2:0 and i output Ycbcr 4:2:0 the gpu still go Ycbcr 4:2:0 -> RGB 4:4:4 -> Ycbcr 4:2:0. Output rgb full avoid the 2nd conversion limiting the damage.
Obviously the conversion to full rgb still adds some problem but there's no way to avoid it in a pc as far as I am aware
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Originally Posted by phate89 View Post

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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. Generally video is expected to be output as a limited range. The limited range can fit within the full range, and if you do that there isn't necessarily any loss of accuracy from the original video information.
my point is this:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271418#post1271418
Actually all gpu elaborate data in rgb only internally. I know that the optimal value is the same as the video i'm going to watch but with a gpu is not possible because even if i play Ycbcr 4:2:0 and i output Ycbcr 4:2:0 the gpu still go Ycbcr 4:2:0 -> RGB 4:4:4 -> Ycbcr 4:2:0. Output rgb full avoid the 2nd conversion limiting the damage.
Obviously the conversion to full rgb still adds some problem but there's no way to avoid it in a pc as far as I am aware

My understanding is that TVs ultimately convert to RGB, so "the damage" is going to occur somewhere. Patterns like the Spears and Munsil 2nd ed Color Space Evaluation pattern can help one determine the best choice.

Note that RGB Limited and RGB Full are both RGB 4:4:4, and I'm not aware that "outputting RGB Full limits the damage" compared to outputting RGB Limited. In fact, RGB Limited is the one that corresponds to what is encoded in video. That is, conversion from 4:2:0 to RGB Limited preserves what is in the video, including BTB and WTW. It's faithful to the video, while RGB Full stretches 16-235 to 0-255 and discards BTB and WTW in the process.

I've heard it claimed that video cards first convert to RGB Full and then convert back to RGB Limited, somehow preserving BTB and WTW, but when I asked for a way to objectively demonstrate this, I didn't get an answer. So I don't know what the truth is. What I do know is that I've had two TVs, a Panasonic ST60 plasma and Sony LCD, that calibrated better for RGB Limited. When I configured for RGB Full, I had to go into the Nvidia Control Panel and adjust Brightness there to get RGB 17 to show up in Black Clipping patterns such as AVS HD 709. However, when I use RGB Limited, I have no such problems, and my calibrations are consistent with my BD player. Note that I'm not changing any settings in the Nvidia Control Panel but "letting the applications decide"; WMC uses RGB Limited by default, and I configure XBMC Gotham to use it thanks to its new feature for this. I explained why I stopped using the Nvidia Control Panel for this purpose here, along with why I needed to move to Gotham:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=180884

Using RGB Limited and Nvidia cards does mean I accept crushed black/white for the desktop, but it doesn't matter in the slightest bit for my HTPC, which I use only for video. I have a separate gaming machine configured for PC Levels, and for it, I do configure video for RGB Full.
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My understanding is that TVs ultimately convert to RGB, so "the damage" is going to occur somewhere. Patterns like the Spears and Munsil 2nd ed Color Space Evaluation pattern can help one determine the best choice.

Note that RGB Limited and RGB Full are both RGB 4:4:4, and I'm not aware that "outputting RGB Full limits the damage" compared to outputting RGB Limited. In fact, RGB Limited is the one that corresponds to what is encoded in video. That is, conversion from 4:2:0 to RGB Limited preserves what is in the video, including BTB and WTW. It's faithful to the video, while RGB Full stretches 16-235 to 0-255 and discards BTB and WTW in the process.

I've heard it claimed that video cards first convert to RGB Full and then convert back to RGB Limited, somehow preserving BTB and WTW, but when I asked for a way to objectively demonstrate this, I didn't get an answer. So I don't know what the truth is. What I do know is that I've had two TVs, a Panasonic ST60 plasma and Sony LCD, that calibrated better for RGB Limited. When I configured for RGB Full, I had to go into the Nvidia Control Panel and adjust Brightness there to get RGB 17 to show up in Black Clipping patterns such as AVS HD 709. However, when I use RGB Limited, I have no such problems, and my calibrations are consistent with my BD player. Note that I'm not changing any settings in the Nvidia Control Panel but "letting the applications decide"; WMC uses RGB Limited by default, and I configure XBMC Gotham to use it thanks to its new feature for this. I explained why I stopped using the Nvidia Control Panel for this purpose here, along with why I needed to move to Gotham:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=180884

Using RGB Limited and Nvidia cards does mean I accept crushed black/white for the desktop, but it doesn't matter in the slightest bit for my HTPC, which I use only for video. I have a separate gaming machine configured for PC Levels, and for it, I do configure video for RGB Full.
Ok i see where was the error of my thinking. I mixed 2 different suggestions from 2 entirely different things and i kept thinking about ycbcr and not simply to rgb limited.
I actually set it to rgb limited and blacks and whites are fine. But i have a problem. Change white level doesn't affect the clipping. Even at higher levels i still get the clipping.. Is this normal?
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post #3895 of 4027 Old 05-17-2014, 03:08 PM
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I think I am in desperate need of configuring my settings for my JVC LCD. Maybe I am am just going crazy trying to get it "perfect" or maybe the settings are off but if anyone can offer some tips on how to make the picture better, that would be great! I've listed what I have it set as right now and also included a few photos. The camera made them look a little brighter than what it really is. The main problem I keep running into is that the skin tones tend to look a little more red than I want it to or when I finally get the color temperature to something I'm something happy with, tv looks like either too much red or blue is popping out. Trying to find something in the middle to where I'm about to watch it both during the day and night. The only lighting I have in the room is the open window blinds during the day and then when they are closed at night, the table lamp is on. I hope I've given enough info for someone to possibly help me. Thanks~ 

 

Movie:

Backlight 75
Contrast 75
Brightness 48
Color 55
Tiny 0
Sharpness 8

Natural
Red Gain 30
Green Gain 40
Blue Gain 70
Red Offset 30
Green Offset 40
Blue Offset 45

 

 

 

 

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post #3896 of 4027 Old 05-18-2014, 10:57 AM
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Personally I'm not a fan of color filters for digital displays, based on comparisons against meters. Using color filters to set color is an accepted practice, but the displays I've looked at generally happened to have the default color setting closer to the meter result than what the color filter produced. Without knowing details of projection setups and that projector model, my initial reaction is that not having a tint control might not be a big deal.
Bias and Gain are grayscale controls. Those controls are generally intended to change the amount of red, green, or blue in the grayscale to adjust the shade of gray. Typically the idea is to have some sort of a reference for gray and then you use those controls to try to produce that gray. Often people use meters when setting those controls. The other reference for gray typically brought up on the forum is a gray card and a light, which can also be used for comparison, but the sorts of recommended combinations may cost as much as some of the cheapest meters. If the display is far off you might be able to adjust the controls to make it produce a more uniform gray between dark and bright scenes, but generally most people don't have a reference for D65 gray, so many times the easiest way is to use a meter for a reference in adjusting gray.
A quick Google search indicates the projector has a color temp setting. If you don't want to purchase a new meter or to pay someone with equipment and experience for adjusting Bias and Gain, then I would suggest reading feedback from other owners on what might be the most accurate color temp setting for your setup and just use that while leaving the Bias and Gain at the defaults. There is some "steaming rat" calibration discussion online, where I think the general idea is to somewhat arbitrarily choose settings to make images look more "real", but personally I doubt if that sort of thing necessarily results in anything more uniform than trying to learn about the projector's settings from other owners that may have measured their own displays.
Thank you for your comments. I may try to find a meter on ebay and give it a shot. Can you or anyone recommend a type or specific affordable meter for a beginner as myself? Something new to learn how to do and when I upgrade in the future to a new 1080P or 4K I can use it as well. Thanks
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post #3897 of 4027 Old 05-18-2014, 12:10 PM
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Anyone got a link to some blue filter calibration glasses that work with this disc? Hopefully from somewhere like Amazon.
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post #3898 of 4027 Old 05-18-2014, 12:13 PM
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Anyone got a link to some blue filter calibration glasses that work with this disc? Hopefully from somewhere like Amazon.

Hi, ask to a local photographic store for a Kodak Deep Blue Tricolor #47B filter, but I think that is more expensive, or get the DVE HD Basics Blu-Ray Disk, it will give you a red,green,blue filter inside the case.

But Blue filters are working only with CRT displays, it's a waste of money / time to use it to any other display technology.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #3899 of 4027 Old 05-18-2014, 12:58 PM
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I actually set it to rgb limited and blacks and whites are fine. But i have a problem. Change white level doesn't affect the clipping. Even at higher levels i still get the clipping.. Is this normal?

Are you saying you're unable to see any bars above 235 when using the AVS HD 709 White Clipping pattern? Decreasing Contrast should bring them out unless something is limiting their display. For Nvidia cards, taking screenshots and examining pixel values works, in that the bars contain the values they are expected to, and measurably as well as visually, my PC output is consistent with my BD player. I don't use codec packs or renderers and don't know if they can act on the image between the time it's in the video buffer for the screenshot and the time it's output onto the wire, but for my system, I would examine a screenshot. If I found bars 235 and above to contain 255, which is what happens when RGB Full is in effect, that would be the answer. However, if they contain the expected values, that would indicate something else is limiting their display.
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post #3900 of 4027 Old 05-18-2014, 01:14 PM
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Are you saying you're unable to see any bars above 235 when using the AVS HD 709 White Clipping pattern? Decreasing Contrast should bring them out unless something is limiting their display. For Nvidia cards, taking screenshots and examining pixel values works, in that the bars contain the values they are expected to, and measurably as well as visually, my PC output is consistent with my BD player. I don't use codec packs or renderers and don't know if they can act on the image between the time it's in the video buffer for the screenshot and the time it's output onto the wire, but for my system, I would examine a screenshot. If I found bars 235 and above to contain 255, which is what happens when RGB Full is in effect, that would be the answer. However, if they contain the expected values, that would indicate something else is limiting their display.
I'm saying that ALL the bars are clipping and changing the white level doesn't affect them. the black level is ok and works well. I set my ati gpu to limited rgb (always, no dynamic range), i used xbmc and i enabled limited range in xbmc settings. How is that possible?
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