AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 131 - AVS Forum
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post #3901 of 4106 Old 05-18-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

I don't know what "ALL the bars" means. They're numbered, so please give the numbers. I asked about "bars above 235", and when you reply "ALL the bars" instead of confirming it's the ones above 235, it just continues the ambiguity.

Also, I don't know what "white level" and "black level" mean, or where you're setting them. If you are talking about a TV, the controls are usually called Contrast and Brightness, respectively. Not to imply you're making this mistake, but if "white level" is "backlight" on an LCD, adjusting it would not affect the visibility of the bars.

Beyond this, I don't know anything about ATI cards. For my Nvidia cards, I don't need to change anything in the Nvidia Control Panel. Setting the TV and XBMC to limited range is all I need to do. I don't need to do anything for WMC, as it uses limited range by default. If it were my system with its Nvidia card, I would do the things I described in my last message, and if the bars contained the values they're labeled with, I'd chalk it up to the display being the culprit. There's nothing that says a display can't clip above 235 and pass through BTB, and for my system, I'm not aware there could be another culprit. So, I'd see how it works with a BD player as the source or google it to see if anyone else has talked about it.

I guess you could also experiment with other software players as well as the XBMC options for Hardware Acceleration and Render Method.
white level -> contrast, black level -> brightness (i was using the disc manual naming).
With all bars i actually mean all. 230 to 255 clips. contrast doesn't change the situation even at maximum..
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post #3902 of 4106 Old 05-18-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by phate89 View Post

white level -> contrast, black level -> brightness (i was using the disc manual naming).
With all bars i actually mean all. 230 to 255 clips.

Thanks.

If 230 is missing, then something is wrong. At the least, you should be seeing up to 234, with 235 being whitest white, which is the case when all of WTW is being clipped, as with RGB Full.
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contrast doesn't change the situation even at maximum..

It is decreasing Contrast that would reveal the higher-numbered bars. I'm pretty much out of ideas. If you haven't seen it, Spears and Munsil have a good guide to Contrast:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/setting-the-contrast-control-2/
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post #3903 of 4106 Old 05-18-2014, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mychaelp View Post

Thank you for your comments. I may try to find a meter on ebay and give it a shot. Can you or anyone recommend a type or specific affordable meter for a beginner as myself? Something new to learn how to do and when I upgrade in the future to a new 1080P or 4K I can use it as well. Thanks

I haven't kept up with current devices, but you might see what CalMAN or ChromaPure is currently selling, or what works with the current version of ColorHCFR. Some devices are better than others at lower-light measurements and having a smaller field of view that might work better for projection measurements, so even if I was in your situation I would have to do some reading on what device I might consider. The main reason I replied is to discourage buying something like a used colorimeter, since they tend to degrade over time, the measurements on older devices may not be able to be trusted. There is a certain learning curve to taking measurements and making adjustments, so hiring a professional may be a reasonable option.
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post #3904 of 4106 Old 05-18-2014, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Amandarenee84 View Post

The main problem I keep running into is that the skin tones tend to look a little more red than I want it to or when I finally get the color temperature to something I'm something happy with, tv looks like either too much red or blue is popping out.

You don't say how you're arriving at the color setting, but I'm assuming the default is 50. Basically I'm thinking maybe dialing back the color control might help, but I don't know anything about the display, so I'm mainly just guessing.
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post #3905 of 4106 Old 05-18-2014, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by phate89 View Post

I actually set it to rgb limited and blacks and whites are fine. But i have a problem. Change white level doesn't affect the clipping. Even at higher levels i still get the clipping.. Is this normal?

As noted in the last reply from sawfish, the expected behavior is that you should be able to see some flashing near 235. If you don't see flashing bars near 235, then you need to troubleshoot what might be going on. Maybe it's having the contrast on the display set too high, a computer setting or video drivers can also possibly cause issues near white. With a computer there are a lot of items that can potentially affect levels. The link below has my impression on the RGB Limited setting for my AMD card, and without being able to verify that full is being converted back to limited while retaining encoded grayscale values it's a bit difficult to automatically recommend using the RGB Limited setting. It's also entirely possible that the RGB Limited setting behavior I was seeing is not consistent across all their video cards and drivers.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1531330/reason-for-white-clipping#post_24711794

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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

For Nvidia cards, taking screenshots and examining pixel values works, in that the bars contain the values they are expected to, and measurably as well as visually, my PC output is consistent with my BD player.

On my AMD card the RGB Limited setting appears to scale the output from Full to Limited. Pulling values in this way does work if my card is set to the default Full output, but with the RGB Limited setting pulling values doesn't match the output.
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post #3906 of 4106 Old 05-19-2014, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post

Thanks.

If 230 is missing, then something is wrong. At the least, you should be seeing up to 234, with 235 being whitest white, which is the case when all of WTW is being clipped, as with RGB Full.
It is decreasing Contrast that would reveal the higher-numbered bars. I'm pretty much out of ideas. If you haven't seen it, Spears and Munsil have a good guide to Contrast:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/setting-the-contrast-control-2/
Yes i'm stupid i said increasing but it was decreasing. actually 230 isn't missing. I see all the bars from 230 to 254 (probably it's my fault i'm not explaining too well). BTw reading from spears and munsil, from the avs hd 709 manual and watching hdnation they all tells me that it's not unusual and it's not a problem so i'm going to set contrast watching the color steps to avoid the steps to blend in.
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

As noted in the last reply from sawfish, the expected behavior is that you should be able to see some flashing near 235. If you don't see flashing bars near 235, then you need to troubleshoot what might be going on. Maybe it's having the contrast on the display set too high, a computer setting or video drivers can also possibly cause issues near white. With a computer there are a lot of items that can potentially affect levels. The link below has my impression on the RGB Limited setting for my AMD card, and without being able to verify that full is being converted back to limited while retaining encoded grayscale values it's a bit difficult to automatically recommend using the RGB Limited setting. It's also entirely possible that the RGB Limited setting behavior I was seeing is not consistent across all their video cards and drivers.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1531330/reason-for-white-clipping#post_24711794
On my AMD card the RGB Limited setting appears to scale the output from Full to Limited. Pulling values in this way does work if my card is set to the default Full output, but with the RGB Limited setting pulling values doesn't match the output.
I definitely explained myself very poorly if you both understand that i had no flash. All bars are flashing on my tv..
Thanks for the suggestion on the amd card. What is your card model and how can i check if my card does it too?

Btw thanks to both of you for the help..
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post #3907 of 4106 Old 05-19-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by phate89 View Post

I definitely explained myself very poorly if you both understand that i had no flash. All bars are flashing on my tv..

The problem was that you got the definition of "clipping" backwards. Bars that are NOT visible against the background are the ones that are clipped. There is also "crushing", which is similar, but I think of "clipping" as applying to the values outside the standard video range and "crushing" as applying to values inside the standard video range. So if you said simply that "whites are clipped", I would be thinking about values above 235, whereas if "whites are crushed", I would be thinking about values below 235. The reference value for black would of course be 16. That all applies to standard Video Levels. When you talk about RGB Full aka PC Levels, you can't have clipping, you can only have crushing.
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post #3908 of 4106 Old 05-19-2014, 06:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by phate89 View Post

reading from spears and munsil, from the avs hd 709 manual and watching hdnation they all tells me that it's not unusual and it's not a problem so i'm going to set contrast watching the color steps to avoid the steps to blend in.

Generally it's not a problem if you can see all the white bars, but that's assuming the TV is receiving a typical input and has been set appropriately for the input. Ideally you want to send either a standard Limited or Full signal to the TV, and then you want to set the TV for that type of input, for example some TVs have an HDMI setting to choose if the input is Limited or Full. Basically you want to avoid sending a non-standard signal from the computer, and you also want to avoid having the TV set incorrectly for the input. For example if my TV was sent a Limited signal when it was expecting a Full input that would reduce the brightness of white from what would be available if the TV was set correctly, which would mean less contrast than the TV was capable of delivering.

Like sawfish commented, being able to measure the display can be helpful for some troubleshooting. While measuring the display is not required to make simple comparisons between sources, for example comparing a computer to a Blu-ray player, it does make the task easier than some visual comparisons. It's possible to compare the brightness of white by eye by flipping back and fourth between two video sources, but if you can measure the display it's very easy to tell how bright of a white you are getting. My Sony TV has been designed so that I get the same brightness of white regardless if I display a Limited or Full signal. My TV is also designed so that I get the exact same brightness setting at the TV regardless if I am using a Limited or Full signal. On the other hand if the HDMI setting on my TV is set incorrectly for the input then the brightness of white and the brightness setting on the TV would no longer match with what I get when I am using an appropriate HDMI setting. If my TV was being sent a non-standard signal from a computer I would know something wasn't right if the brightness of white and the brightness setting on the TV didn't match with my Blu-ray player and other sources. Unfortunately I cannot say how common it is for displays from various manufacturers to be designed to always arrive at the same white and black levels when receiving a standard signal, but if you have more than one video source it's possible to compare them to try to understand how the electronics operate.

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What is your card model and how can i check if my card does it too?

I have an HD 7000 series video card. Like sawfish commented, I merely played the video, pressed print screen, pasted the image into a photo editor (Paint.NET works), and then pulled RGB values from the screen image. Some video players will block print screen or applications like colorcop from obtaining RGB values for copy protection, but the MP4 video played through Windows Media Player should always work. Looking at the RGB values in this way it's possible to get a better idea of what is happening to the video. By default 16 is scaled to 0 and 235 goes to 255. When looking at RGB values in this way it's possible to see the effects of how changing the Dynamic Range setting alters the RGB values from the video, but the RGB values from the desktop do not change. Of course the effects of changing the Dynamic Range setting can also be seen by eye, but seeing the RGB values change might make it easier to understand what exactly is going on when the Dynamic Range setting is adjusted. On my card when I change the Pixel Format to Limited the RGB values do not change, but visually it's very easy to see that the white and black levels change depending how the Pixel Format is set. Since I know how bright white and black should be on my TV when sent a standard Limited signal from a Blu-ray player, I know that the combination of Dynamic Range - Limited and Pixel Format - Limited is delivering a non-standard signal that has less contrast than a standard Limited output would deliver, and I know this because black is brighter and white is clearly darker than they would be when the same image was sent from a Blu-ray player. It would be much preferable to simply use a computer's default Full output, rather than the screwed up signal my card delivers with the Dynamic Range - Limited and Pixel Format - Limited setting. When I use a combination of Dynamic Range - Full and Pixel Format - Limited my video card cuts off the 1-15 and 236-253 information that you indicated your computer was displaying (flashing), but it's possible that my card may not be exhibiting typical behavior for the Pixel Format - Limited setting.
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post #3909 of 4106 Old 05-21-2014, 01:08 AM
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Ok after doing a ton of reading I'm still going to ask because I confused.

I am running a nvidia gtx760 in my htpc. Got my calibration equipment a i1 display pro and using colorhcfr to calibrate

I am having troubles setting the clipping for the white and black .

Which exact videos on the disk should I be using ? I see seperate black and white and I see one that has both In it.

Also for my nvidia card it seems like I don't have to change a thing at all in the control panel because when I connected it my onkyo 818 it set it all for hardware to do the work?

Are there any settings in the control panel I missing ?
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post #3910 of 4106 Old 05-21-2014, 04:04 AM
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I think I am in desperate need of configuring my settings for my JVC LCD. Maybe I am am just going crazy trying to get it "perfect" or maybe the settings are off but if anyone can offer some tips on how to make the picture better, that would be great! I've listed what I have it set as right now and also included a few photos. The camera made them look a little brighter than what it really is. The main problem I keep running into is that the skin tones tend to look a little more red than I want it to or when I finally get the color temperature to something I'm something happy with, tv looks like either too much red or blue is popping out. Trying to find something in the middle to where I'm about to watch it both during the day and night. The only lighting I have in the room is the open window blinds during the day and then when they are closed at night, the table lamp is on. I hope I've given enough info for someone to possibly help me. Thanks~ 


Which model JVC do you have and we'll try to get you to the correct thread.

This thread has more to do with a calibration disk than calibrations for particular displays.

The settings you posted have more to do with grayscale than what we call CMS (color management system) which is where your problem exist.

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post #3911 of 4106 Old 05-29-2014, 12:27 PM
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I'm on a Intel G5 mac and cannot download the AVCHD (.7z), it just opens up a new browser window with text on it. Not sure what I'm doing wrong.
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post #3912 of 4106 Old 05-29-2014, 12:36 PM
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It's a zipped file, not sure how that works on a Mac ?

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post #3913 of 4106 Old 05-29-2014, 12:46 PM
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It's a zipped file, not sure how that works on a Mac ?

Same as Windows, I think the link is dead.
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post #3914 of 4106 Old 05-29-2014, 01:02 PM
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Should have read instructions a bit better rolleyes.gif, I will use my Hacintosh and follow the windows burning instructions.
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hello alll I'm new here, I'll will purchase a samsung 40" led model number un40h6350afxza tomorrow. I want to calibrate this to the best picture possible. I tried to download the mp4 version of the cali too in this thread but it will not download. it has a question mark where the total file size would be. also my bluray player as of now is my ps4 and i don't have any other way of making a disc. my question is will the ave hd 709 give me all i need to calibrate  my new tv using the mp4 format? sorry for the long post

 

edit: got it to download i have the folder on my desktop but there is a lot of stuff there. I someone can give me a simple version of how to use on a flash drive with a ps4 that would be great. I can figure out the rest once i know how to start the process.

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I cant find the dvd or blu ray disk I burned the avs 709 software to, and now I'm having issue after issue getting it to burn to DVD or get it copied to a USB drive. Did something change? I've been trying my oppo bd 103 player to see any dvd i'm burning. Keeps on say unreadable media, I'm burning the ISO image straight to DVD. Is it the player? I never had the issue of it readin from my old sony blu ray player. You would think theat 7 yrs later in technology would make it EASIER?
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post #3917 of 4106 Old 06-05-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dunan View Post

I cant find the dvd or blu ray disk I burned the avs 709 software to, and now I'm having issue after issue getting it to burn to DVD or get it copied to a USB drive. Did something change? I've been trying my oppo bd 103 player to see any dvd i'm burning. Keeps on say unreadable media, I'm burning the ISO image straight to DVD. Is it the player? I never had the issue of it readin from my old sony blu ray player. You would think theat 7 yrs later in technology would make it EASIER?

The OPPO no longer supports BDMV folders on DVD media, per licensing authority directive. (I don't know why the powers care).

The AVCHD version should work, both on DVD and USB device.

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post #3918 of 4106 Old 06-05-2014, 05:08 PM
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The OPPO no longer supports BDMV folders on DVD media, per licensing authority directive. (I don't know why the powers care).

The AVCHD version should work, both on DVD and USB device.

-Bill

I tried the AVCHD (burned to dvd) first and the oppo kept on saying 'unknown disk' and I cant get the ISO to copy to an 8GB usb drive. Says its too small to copy, when the ISO is 4.4G and the jump drive is 8GB formatted. This is with win7, and cant figure out for the life of me why I cant get a working copy on dvd or it copied to USB.
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I tried the AVCHD (burned to dvd) first and the oppo kept on saying 'unknown disk' and I cant get the ISO to copy to an 8GB usb drive. Says its too small to copy, when the ISO is 4.4G and the jump drive is 8GB formatted. This is with win7, and cant figure out for the life of me why I cant get a working copy on dvd or it copied to USB.

The ISO itself will be no good on a USB device. You need to mount it as a virtual drive and copy the contents. I believe Virtual Clone Drive from AnyDVD does this and is free.

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post #3920 of 4106 Old 06-05-2014, 05:26 PM
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The ISO itself will be no good on a USB device. You need to mount it as a virtual drive and copy the contents. I believe Virtual Clone Drive from AnyDVD does this and is free.

-Bill

Thanks, Bill. I was able to get the AVHD ISO written to blu ray disk. Running the very first black level test pattern is showing some red in the black flashing bars and also on the next flashing white pattern. This is on a panasonic plasma TC-P55ST60 with at least 300 hrs or so on it.

I'm thinking the red phosphers are aged more than the the red and blue now possibly? Will this ruin a calibration? I was considering running D Nice's calibration slides on from the controlCal forums now but don't know if that will even make a difference since there are so many hrs on the set now.
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post #3921 of 4106 Old 06-19-2014, 03:25 PM
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Ps4 issues

Hello everyone i'm new to avs but already love it here. I'm having an issue with this disc. I downloaded both the 7-zip and .exe versions of the AVCHD type and tried to burn both of them on to a memorex DVD-R. It completes the burn but comes up unrecognized by my Ps4. Am I doing something wrong?
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post #3922 of 4106 Old 06-19-2014, 03:46 PM
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Hello everyone i'm new to avs but already love it here. I'm having an issue with this disc. I downloaded both the 7-zip and .exe versions of the AVCHD type and tried to burn both of them on to a memorex DVD-R. It completes the burn but comes up unrecognized by my Ps4. Am I doing something wrong?
Welcome to AVSForum.

The .exe and 7zip are both compressed versions of the disc. You need to uncompress them and burn the results to a disc.

The .exe is a self-extracting archive. The 7zip requires a decompressing utility. I have this on linux; I'm not sure which utilities can deal with it on Windows or Mac.

-Bill

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post #3923 of 4106 Old 06-19-2014, 04:16 PM
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Welcome to AVSForum.

The .exe and 7zip are both compressed versions of the disc. You need to uncompress them and burn the results to a disc.

The .exe is a self-extracting archive. The 7zip requires a decompressing utility. I have this on linux; I'm not sure which utilities can deal with it on Windows or Mac.

-Bill
Thank you for you reply. I think I decompressed the .exe using 7zip and the 7zip file with winrar. Is there a special program that I'm supposed to use and will that get it to work on my Ps4?
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Thank you for you reply. I think I decompressed the .exe using 7zip and the 7zip file with winrar. Is there a special program that I'm supposed to use and will that get it to work on my Ps4?
What files and directories resulted from these steps?

-Bill

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From the .exe file came the main directory BDMV and subdirectories are Backup, Clipinf, Playlist, Stream, index.bmdv and Movieobject.bmdv
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Originally Posted by boomkid View Post
From the .exe file came the main directory BDMV and subdirectories are Backup, Clipinf, Playlist, Stream, index.bmdv and Movieobject.bmdv
Ok, that's good. If you burn the BDMV folder to a disc does the PS4 not recognize it? If so, I would ask in the PS4 thread if there are special procedures for making compatible discs.

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post #3927 of 4106 Old 06-20-2014, 01:14 PM
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iirc my .exe decompressed to an .iso which I burned with imgburn.
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post #3928 of 4106 Old 06-20-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
iirc my .exe decompressed to an .iso which I burned with imgburn.
It does decompress into an .iso file, what program did you use to decompress the .exe file?
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post #3929 of 4106 Old 06-20-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by boomkid View Post
It does decompress into an .iso file, what program did you use to decompress the .exe file?
You run the .exe file. It is a self-extracting archive. When it runs the contents are created.

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post #3930 of 4106 Old 06-23-2014, 10:51 PM
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Hello. I've been using this disc through my PS3 to calibrate my Sony KDL-50w800b and noticed something strange on the color clipping screen. Red and blue stop flashing past the 235 line as they should, but green flashes all the way through to the right end of the screen. Here is a poor photo of what's going on, but you get the idea: http://i.imgur.com/iLAt0II.jpg Red was initially clipping before 235 but I brought the Picture (contrast) setting down 2-3 notches and it cleared up. In this photo it may look like red and blue are clipping too soon but they are visibly flashing up until 235.

I was wondering how bad of a thing this is, and what settings I might try adjusting to solve this? One thing I wondered about is the white balance, which has 6 settings. A gain and bias for each of the three colors. I don't have any sort of sensors or meters, but I do have blue, red, and green filters from my GetGray DVD. If it helps, I've been feeling oranges may be too red.

Thanks!

Last edited by Deaddy; 06-24-2014 at 02:43 PM.
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