AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 133 - AVS Forum
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post #3961 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
its going to be my first time on Plasma.
This sort of thing might get more of a response in the main forum. The measurements I've looked at on plasma tend to vary xy, Y, and gamma depending on the chosen measurement patterns, so I consider it a given that the display will also vary to some extent in typical use. My impression is that the general opinion is to choose smaller windows than are available from this project for both xy and Y measurements. Exact recommendations might vary to some extent depending on the model, since discussions across various models seem to suggest potential operational differences. I never encountered what I considered a well-documented explination for how to approach plasma calibration across various models with a single measurement series in a way that clearly compares against how fixed-backlight LCDs measure, where xy and Y are absolutely tied to the video level displayed, but there are some other pattern sets that are more focused around providing various patterns for measurements. Zoyd and Chad B have posted some very thorough measurement data on a couple plasma displays, but otherwise the plasma discussion was too subjective for my taste, and I decided I would just measure how my own display operates with a few pattern series if I ever bought one.

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post #3962 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deaddy View Post
One thing I don't understand is the gamma setting, and how to set that. In Cinema mode I believe the default gamma is at -2 so I left it there. In other modes it's at 0.
The easiest way to look at gamma in the way it's usually discussed is with measurements. If you don't have a way to measure the display, then the best you can likely do is to try to find measurements from someone that has measured their TV of the same model. I believe on Sony displays lowering the gamma control tends to increase gamma. In that case the -2 setting would likely be intended for a room with very limited lighting (there's a misc. pattern related to room lighting), while the 0 setting would likely be intended for very bright rooms. For more information than you likely want to know about gamma see:
http://www.poynton.com/GammaFAQ.html

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post #3963 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, If you have de-saturated a primary (for example Blue) it will contain green-red, it will not be a pure blue anymore, so viewing this throu a blue filter it will look no right.
A high quality blue filter effectively removes this green-red. Is it as ideal as using external instrumentation? No, I never said that, but if you can provide external documentation (a link), not written by you, which discusses your claim that blue filters simply aren't a valid method when adjusting a modern, non-CRT display that uses the three color primaries, such as traditional plasmas and LCDs, please provide it. I'd like to read more about it.


[Companies which manufacture or sell colorimetry instruments obviously have a stake in this game and might scoff at any "poor man's method", but if that's the only kind of link you can provide me with, I'll take that too. ]


Thanks.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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post #3964 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
A high quality blue filter effectively removes this green-red. Is it as ideal as using external instrumentation? No, I never said that, but if you can provide external documentation (a link), not written by you, which discusses your claim that blue filters simply aren't a valid method when adjusting a modern, non-CRT display that uses the three color primaries, such as traditional plasmas and LCDs, please provide it. I'd like to read more about it.


[Companies which manufacture or sell colorimetry instruments obviously have a stake in this game and might scoff at any "poor man's method", but if that's the only kind of link you can provide me with, I'll take that too. ]


Thanks.
Hi, I haven't found or searched about any document that is available on-line about that topic. My recommendation is coming by calibration experience with different display technologies over the years because I'm using meters to verify the calibration results, and they are not match any color filter, I have THX Glasses, Digital Video Essentials R/G/B Filters, Spears & Munsil v1 & v2 filters here....there is not perfect match of a filter to a perfect calibrated modern display.

Ted's LightSpace CMS Calibration Disk Free Version for Free Calibration Software: LightSpace DPS + CalMAN ColorChecker
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Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #3965 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
A high quality blue filter effectively removes this green-red. Is it as ideal as using external instrumentation? No, I never said that, but if you can provide external documentation (a link), not written by you, which discusses your claim that blue filters simply aren't a valid method when adjusting a modern, non-CRT display that uses the three color primaries, such as traditional plasmas and LCDs, please provide it. I'd like to read more about it.
Here's an hour-old post from Spears of Spears and Munsil fame, who sell a well-regarded setup disk and began to supply a blue filter in the 2nd edition due to popular demand, despite believing "they are not reliable":

Spears & Munsil HD Benchmark Blu-Ray 2nd Edition
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post #3966 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 12:24 PM
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pending


[edited after having read the above post]


Poor man's solutions are never as good as using high quality external instrumentation, I've said that all along, however I don't agree with this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD View Post
Hi, Blue Filter Glasses are useless for displays other than CRT.

We now know that this assentation was based on personal experience, and is not an industry wide accepted opinion.

Blue filters vary from make to make (maybe even batch to batch), unfortunately making results slightly inconsistent, true, however the basic premise of attempting to visually replicate a display which has a true "blue mode only" setting works by using a good blue filter, at least for any display technology based on a three primary colors design, including conventional plasmas and LCDs.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #3967 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Blue filters vary from make to make (maybe even batch to batch) unfortunately making results slightly inconsistent, true
Another reason that are inaccurate, if you use 4 different blue filters you will see slight different results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
however the basic premise of attempting to visually replicate a display which has a true "blue mode only" setting works by using a good blue filter for any display technology based on a three primary color design, including conventional LCD and plasmas.
If a display has a Blue only mode, then you don't need to use any blue filter.

This reply is from Joel, the lead programer of SpectraCAL's CalMAN software:

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Originally Posted by sotti View Post
The blue filter is an old method that was designed for displays with color and tint only. Any display with a CMS fundamentally breaks the paradigm the blue filter is based off of. Blue filters work because red should have no blue and green should have no blue in them. But an oversaturated red or an over saturated green needs to have blue added to be de-saturated to it's target. So the blue filter now has blue light coming from all three primaries, making it's "match the luminance" method of adjustment no longer capable of giving you an accurate result.

And all of that is before we even get into the accuracy of the plastic filter itself. In case I need to elaborate on that, the filters don't aren't matched well enough to the response of the display. So even when the filters work, they are far less accurate than a meter.
This is coming from Michael Chen, THX/ISF Instructor:

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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post
All the blue filters are not accurate. They were designed for CRT phosphors.

The purpose of the filter is to get you into the ballpark of where correct should be. YOu use your eyes as the final determiner after that.

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Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post
One does not use the blue filter for calibrating RGB on TVs. It is only a tool for doing color and tint and nothing else. Depending on the technology, its usefulness may also be limited. They are designed to work best with CRT type technology ... not LCD ... DLP ... Plasma.
Blue filters used before 10 years, when the calibration software/meter access were so limited and so expensive.....now in 2014 you can get an amazing for the performance colorimeter like i1d3 for 150$ and use an open source software for free, there is no reason to use any blue filter anymore.

Now all displays are coming with 6-Axis CMS controls, noone is using color/tint anymore.

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S/W: LightSpace CMS, SpaceMan ICC, SpaceMatch DCM, CalMAN 5, CalMAN RGB, ChromaPure, CalPC, ControlCAL
Meters: JETI Specbos 1211, Klein K-10A, i1PRO2, i1PRO, SpectraCAL C6, i1D3, C5
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post #3968 of 3971 Old 07-14-2014, 01:39 PM
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If anyone reading this has links to a third party source that doesn't sell/distribute colorimetry gear, software, or training in using them, which concurs that blue mode only or good quality blue filters used to simulate blue mode only, is for some reason useless for non-CRT displays, that use the three primaries, including plasmas and LCDs, please post it. Thanks.


Sorry, not looking for forum posts or personal blogs.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..


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post #3969 of 3971 Old 07-18-2014, 04:03 PM
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I downloaded the MP4 file, decompressed and burned it to a DVD-R. Viewing the disc on my laptop shows all the individual folders etc. My Xbox doesn't read it, when I insert it, all it says is mixed media content. What am I doing wrong? Thanks
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post #3970 of 3971 Old 07-18-2014, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by carillon View Post
I downloaded the MP4 file, decompressed and burned it to a DVD-R. Viewing the disc on my laptop shows all the individual folders etc. My Xbox doesn't read it, when I insert it, all it says is mixed media content. What am I doing wrong? Thanks
You didn't read through the very first post apparently. You have to download the appropriate file type for what you are trying to do. The MP4 files are for using via a media PC or the like. You need to burn one of the other file types to a DVD-R, assuming your XBox can read a DVD-R with blu-ray formatted data.

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post #3971 of 3971 Old 07-18-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post
You didn't read through the very first post apparently.
Below is what I read and thought would work...

"MP4 (.exe) or MP4 (.7z)
Plays on: Many MPEG-4 AVC or H.264 video players. For example computer video players, or the Xbox 360 after update. See the player specifications for types of video supported.
Media: Depends on player, for example the Xbox 360 can play files from DVD media."
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