AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 134 - AVS Forum
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post #3991 of 4003 Old 08-18-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh128 View Post
I used the disc and to my surprise found my settings were crushing whites and oversaturating colors quite a bit.

One question though, does anyone know if theres a similar disc I can download for SD DVD players? I'd love to be able to do a basic black/white crush and color saturation setting on my component inputs for my game systems-- I have a Sony DVD only player and a PS2, but the AVCHD DVD wont play in them.

Any suggestions for a pattern disc that works with SD DVD players?
This: http://www.calibrate.tv/. It's downloadable but not free. I liked it better than the commercial discs of the DVD era. Some of the patterns are used in AVS HD 709.

I recall free mpeg2 patterns somewhere. Check the calibration forum.

-Bill
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post #3992 of 4003 Old 08-18-2014, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
This: http://www.calibrate.tv/. It's downloadable but not free. I liked it better than the commercial discs of the DVD era. Some of the patterns are used in AVS HD 709.

I recall free mpeg2 patterns somewhere. Check the calibration forum.

-Bill
Will do, thanks!
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post #3993 of 4003 Old 08-18-2014, 11:13 PM
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If anyone is interest, I have created new APL patterns which gave me perfect greyscale tracking without any tint on my Plasma.
Just scroll down from THIS post downwards to understand what I did and why I needed new APL patterns with my plasma.

BTW. It would be very nice if someone could teach me how to generate a standard 16-235 MP4 video like the ones on the AVS709 disk from my PNG images.

Thanks.

Here is how my APL slides look like:


Panasonic TC-P50ST60.
HTPC (MPC-HC, MadVR), PS3.
Studio Monitors + Polk Audio PSW110 Subwoofer.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-19-2014 at 06:57 AM.
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post #3994 of 4003 Old 08-20-2014, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Here is how my APL slides look like:
Since I don't have a plasma to test, I've generally been curious if large areas of white in a test pattern might tend to skew xy measurements. Larger measurement areas generally make an image more practical for small displays and projectors. On the other hand white is rather uncommon for many images, so without testing it may make sense to limit the amount of bright areas in a pattern, similar to the example above. In spite of all the discussion around which patterns to use on plasma, there isn't a lot of data to look at in my opinion, but Chad B's measurements on his own APL pattern seem to indicate some clear xy variation against other measurement patterns, so I have to wonder if the bright areas might be a part of the usual complaints about prior fixed-luminance measurement patterns.

The Chad B APL pattern has an APL around 19%, but it has larger measurement areas like white, so the average luminance is around 13% for a 2.2 gamma. The example above seems to have an APL around maybe 26%, and an average luminance about 8% at 2.2 gamma. The example above seems a reasonable average in comparison to the numbers that Zoyd posted, and I doubt if the lower average luminance would hurt in comparisons against typical patterns. Gamma measurements should be generally similar to the trends from other fixed-luminance patterns, but I'm not sure how RGB would turn out or what people might subjectively decide about measurements on various plasma displays. Personally I tend to agree that when using a display type that is known to vary depending on the image displayed it makes sense to have some other reference, like another display that does not vary depending on the displayed image, but as far as I can tell such considerations are not the general forum opinion.

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BTW. It would be very nice if someone could teach me how to generate a standard 16-235 MP4 video like the ones on the AVS709 disk from my PNG images.
The process used for this project is generally covered in:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

Last edited by alluringreality; 08-21-2014 at 12:34 AM.
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post #3995 of 4003 Old 08-21-2014, 12:39 AM
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Thanks alluringreality.
BTW how do you measure APL and Luminance to get these % numbers?

My plan is to improve my APL pattern eve further by:

Measure the luminance of a small white square in the middle of the screen while a movie plays in the back,
I will take several luminance measurements of this square throughout several scenes and different movies.
Now I will average the luminance readings of this square to get a certain number.

Now I will play my APL pattern with the same white square in the middle and choose the most accurate grey background to match the average luminance of the white square that I measured on top of the movies.
This would give me the most accurate average of grey shade for my background.

Although every plasma TV has a different APL+ABL behavior, a typical movie APL will trigger some ABL in any kind of plasma.
This sweet spot is where I'm anchoring my new APL white balance calibration pattern.
The anchor is an average APL of actual movies.

The new pattern should be just the perfect balance between APL and ABL to calibrate a Plasma for Movies or TV.

EDIT:
Apparently the value Photoshop gave me as the average grey shade of many scenes combines was spot on in terms of Luminance.
So if anyone cares to download my 16-235 SPL slides can go here: SLIDES.

The photo I used to get an average of the background of my APL patten:


Panasonic TC-P50ST60.
HTPC (MPC-HC, MadVR), PS3.
Studio Monitors + Polk Audio PSW110 Subwoofer.

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-21-2014 at 08:19 AM.
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post #3996 of 4003 Old 08-21-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Personally I tend to agree that when using a display type that is known to vary depending on the image displayed it makes sense to have some other reference, like another display that does not vary depending on the displayed image, but as far as I can tell such considerations are not the general forum opinion.
I agree with that, and it's what I've been doing as I have a monitor on an arm in front of the 50ST60 on my AnthroCart, which makes it easy. It's helpful but limited, as the black level is so much deeper on the plasma, but I think it does give a ballpark idea of agreement. I also have one device on my remote set up for one-button switching between inputs on the the TV using discrete IR commands that aren't available on the supplied TV remote. I have two sources for the TV that measure the same, and this allows me to A/B the same paused scenes with about a 1 sec black screen delay to compare calibrations. Comparing to Calman Client's 10%-25% constant APL patterns with a wide range of material and a wide range of APL levels, I've found no reason not to just use the smallest possible windows, which for me is 2%. I also get no tinting in the grayscale with 2% windows, and that and green skin tones are what I remember James Freeman giving as his motivation for his stab at constant APL patterns. OTOH, as I've written many times before, when I tried the Spears and Munsil Equal Energy patterns, I did observe greenish skin tones in certain low APL scenes, like one firelit indoor scene in Vikings S01E01, but this was eliminated by going back to small windows. FTR, I'm using Calman Enthusiast, starting with a C3, later an i1D3, and most recently, the i1D3 profiled against a ColorMunki Photo.

So while I've always found the "sweet spot" idea appealing, I've found no benefit to it over small windows on my 50ST60. With one pattern set, it was obviously harmful. I've evaluated it several times over the 1.5 years I've been doing this as I upgraded my equipment and improved my skills. YMMV, and I'm not saying it can't be useful, just that to evaluate it, you need a good set of reference material, devices that measure the same for the same settings, and a procedure for A/Bing calibrations, such that the switching between calibrations (inputs) is quick enough to be at least somewhat valid. If you have to go into the menu system, fuggedaboutit, unless the differences are truly extreme.
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post #3997 of 4003 Old 08-21-2014, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
how do you measure APL and Luminance to get these % numbers?
I was just using a image editor for an approximation.

Average luminance estimate:
1 - Expand 16-235 levels to 0-255.
2 - Apply a curve to the image to roughly approximate gamma. I was simply using a curve with a point at x=128 and y=55.
3 - Resize image to 1 pixel.
4 - Pull RGB value from pixel.
5 - Divide RGB value by 255 for decimal.
6 - Multiply result by 100 for percentage.

The same process without step 2 is basically average video level (APL).
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post #3998 of 4003 Old 08-21-2014, 12:58 PM
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@sawfish ..sorry for the off topic. Because it will be a really pain in the a... to borrow a colormunki photo, but that's the only spectrometer I could find here, I'd like to know how much it will improve my d3 if I profile it with munki? Was it really off or minor changes (between corrected profile and plasma EDR).
Thanks and sorry again for the OT question.
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post #3999 of 4003 Old 08-21-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post
@sawfish ..sorry for the off topic. Because it will be a really pain in the a... to borrow a colormunki photo, but that's the only spectrometer I could find here, I'd like to know how much it will improve my d3 if I profile it with munki? Was it really off or minor changes (between corrected profile and plasma EDR).
Thanks and sorry again for the OT question.
For my ST60, the i1D3 read red a little low, blue a little high compared to the Munki, and it was a pretty steady difference, with red about -1% and blue about +3%. Running each against the same TV settings, the Calman grayscale results (dE Avg, dE Max) were i1D3 (1.29, 1.66) and Munki (1.04, 1.48). (NB: These results and the ones to follow are before tightening up the calibrations; for example, for the ST60, I ended up with (.4, .69) for the profiled i1D3.)

There was a greater difference for my HP Z24i LED monitor. Again the i1D3 read red low and blue high, but the discrepancies increased across the grayscale, reaching about -5% for red and +5% for blue at 100% white. The i1D3 dEs were (1.72, 2.61), and the Munki was (.42, 1).

For my CCFL Sony KDL-EX500, the i1D3 read red high and blue even higher compared to the Munki, with the i1D3 up about +2.5% for red and +5% for blue. The i1D3 dEs were (.97, 2.08), while the Munki dEs were (2.7, 3.9).

Was the Munki worth the $60 rental? I would say yes, but the differences for me weren't huge, and they were larger for the LCDs than the plasma. Of course, without reference level equipment and procedures, I have no way to assess just how accurate the results are, but I am very, very happy with the ST60 picture at this point and the other two displays as well. FWIW, I recently wrote down my ST60 procedures and results here:

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/view...p=35577#p35577

I'm copying the results here, which I think are interesting in light of all the talk about processors and LUTs:

10 point grayscale (.4, .69)
21 point grayscale (.47, 1.53)
25% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.61, 1.48)
50% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.61, 1.4)
75% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.59, 1.89)
100% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.95, 2.69)
ColorChecker (.69, 1.94)
ColorChecker Full, the one with a gazillion points (.81, 2.23)

It's not thousands of points, just hundreds, but the maximum dEs are all below the magic number 3, with the averages below 1.
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post #4000 of 4003 Old 08-21-2014, 01:59 PM
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Thanks for the elaborate answer. I have a feeling my D3 is the same because I feel a little lack in blue. I'll try to get a spectro in a country where talking about calibration is almost SF for many.
All the best!
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post #4001 of 4003 Old 08-25-2014, 09:06 AM
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I need some advice. I used the burnable DVD version to calibrate my PS3 and found it to be an easy enough process. Everything worked as expected, although with the contrast/white adjustment I had many more bars flashing than necessary, even with contrast all the way up. I figure this only be a good thing. I then put the disc in my Xbox One. Black's turned out the same.. but with white, I could only see two bars flashing. If I lower contrast a bit I could barely see a few more, but just barely. Otherwise the picture just continued to dim by lowering contrast any further.

I think the issue is RGB (Xbox One) vs YcCbCr (PS3 bluray output). I have the Xbox set up for PC levels (0-255).. otherwise black looks gray. But I think maybe the correct settings would be to use TV levels and set HDMI Black to Low in my TV setup. Would this help with the white/contrast? If I turn off "Super White" in my PS3 settings I see a similar set of bars flashing to the Xbox One but they are still more clearly defined. Is this anything to be concerned about? Maybe I am over thinking all of this.

I should mention that both systems run to my AVR for the best audio. This means only one HDMI out to the TV so the systems share the same video settings on the TV.

Any advice would be appreciated. I know what I wrote above is probably stupidly confusing, so I apologize in advance.

EDIT: Ok, so I tried exactly as above- Xbox One set to "TV" and HDMI Level on the TV to "Low". PS3 is set YCbCr. Now when using the AVS HD disc I get the exact same output on both. Games + Movies seem to look great now!

Last edited by marcusb84; 08-25-2014 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Update status
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post #4002 of 4003 Old 08-25-2014, 09:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusb84 View Post
I have the Xbox set up for PC levels (0-255)
It sounds like you figured things out, but when a device is outputting PC levels then 235 and above are expected to be the same shade, so they're not expected to flash in that situation. Assuming the device is outputting as expected, what you can see below 235 depends on the display. If you're having issues with PC levels on a TV it probably makes sense to go back to video levels, which it sounds like you did.
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post #4003 of 4003 Old Yesterday, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
If you're having issues with PC levels on a TV it probably makes sense to go back to video levels, which it sounds like you did.
Thanks for the response. There is a lot of bad advice out there saying to use "expanded", "PC", or "Full RGB" on game systems. If you are using a PS3, PS4, Xbox One or Xbox 360 I recommend to use standard RGB levels!
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