AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 134 - AVS Forum
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post #3991 of 4106 Old 08-18-2014, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
This: http://www.calibrate.tv/. It's downloadable but not free. I liked it better than the commercial discs of the DVD era. Some of the patterns are used in AVS HD 709.

I recall free mpeg2 patterns somewhere. Check the calibration forum.

-Bill
Will do, thanks!
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post #3992 of 4106 Old 08-19-2014, 12:13 AM
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If anyone is interest, I have created new APL patterns which gave me perfect greyscale tracking without any tint on my Plasma.
Just scroll down from THIS post downwards to understand what I did and why I needed new APL patterns with my plasma.

BTW. It would be very nice if someone could teach me how to generate a standard 16-235 MP4 video like the ones on the AVS709 disk from my PNG images.

Thanks.

Here is how my APL slides look like:

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-19-2014 at 07:57 AM.
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post #3993 of 4106 Old 08-20-2014, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Here is how my APL slides look like:
Since I don't have a plasma to test, I've generally been curious if large areas of white in a test pattern might tend to skew xy measurements. Larger measurement areas generally make an image more practical for small displays and projectors. On the other hand white is rather uncommon for many images, so without testing it may make sense to limit the amount of bright areas in a pattern, similar to the example above. In spite of all the discussion around which patterns to use on plasma, there isn't a lot of data to look at in my opinion, but Chad B's measurements on his own APL pattern seem to indicate some clear xy variation against other measurement patterns, so I have to wonder if the bright areas might be a part of the usual complaints about prior fixed-luminance measurement patterns.

The Chad B APL pattern has an APL around 19%, but it has larger measurement areas like white, so the average luminance is around 13% for a 2.2 gamma. The example above seems to have an APL around maybe 26%, and an average luminance about 8% at 2.2 gamma. The example above seems a reasonable average in comparison to the numbers that Zoyd posted, and I doubt if the lower average luminance would hurt in comparisons against typical patterns. Gamma measurements should be generally similar to the trends from other fixed-luminance patterns, but I'm not sure how RGB would turn out or what people might subjectively decide about measurements on various plasma displays. Personally I tend to agree that when using a display type that is known to vary depending on the image displayed it makes sense to have some other reference, like another display that does not vary depending on the displayed image, but as far as I can tell such considerations are not the general forum opinion.

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BTW. It would be very nice if someone could teach me how to generate a standard 16-235 MP4 video like the ones on the AVS709 disk from my PNG images.
The process used for this project is generally covered in:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

Last edited by alluringreality; 08-21-2014 at 01:34 AM.
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post #3994 of 4106 Old 08-21-2014, 01:39 AM
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Thanks alluringreality.
BTW how do you measure APL and Luminance to get these % numbers?

My plan is to improve my APL pattern eve further by:

Measure the luminance of a small white square in the middle of the screen while a movie plays in the back,
I will take several luminance measurements of this square throughout several scenes and different movies.
Now I will average the luminance readings of this square to get a certain number.

Now I will play my APL pattern with the same white square in the middle and choose the most accurate grey background to match the average luminance of the white square that I measured on top of the movies.
This would give me the most accurate average of grey shade for my background.

Although every plasma TV has a different APL+ABL behavior, a typical movie APL will trigger some ABL in any kind of plasma.
This sweet spot is where I'm anchoring my new APL white balance calibration pattern.
The anchor is an average APL of actual movies.

The new pattern should be just the perfect balance between APL and ABL to calibrate a Plasma for Movies or TV.

EDIT:
Apparently the value Photoshop gave me as the average grey shade of many scenes combines was spot on in terms of Luminance.
So if anyone cares to download my 16-235 SPL slides can go here: SLIDES.

The photo I used to get an average of the background of my APL patten:

Last edited by James Freeman; 08-21-2014 at 09:19 AM.
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post #3995 of 4106 Old 08-21-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Personally I tend to agree that when using a display type that is known to vary depending on the image displayed it makes sense to have some other reference, like another display that does not vary depending on the displayed image, but as far as I can tell such considerations are not the general forum opinion.
I agree with that, and it's what I've been doing as I have a monitor on an arm in front of the 50ST60 on my AnthroCart, which makes it easy. It's helpful but limited, as the black level is so much deeper on the plasma, but I think it does give a ballpark idea of agreement. I also have one device on my remote set up for one-button switching between inputs on the the TV using discrete IR commands that aren't available on the supplied TV remote. I have two sources for the TV that measure the same, and this allows me to A/B the same paused scenes with about a 1 sec black screen delay to compare calibrations. Comparing to Calman Client's 10%-25% constant APL patterns with a wide range of material and a wide range of APL levels, I've found no reason not to just use the smallest possible windows, which for me is 2%. I also get no tinting in the grayscale with 2% windows, and that and green skin tones are what I remember James Freeman giving as his motivation for his stab at constant APL patterns. OTOH, as I've written many times before, when I tried the Spears and Munsil Equal Energy patterns, I did observe greenish skin tones in certain low APL scenes, like one firelit indoor scene in Vikings S01E01, but this was eliminated by going back to small windows. FTR, I'm using Calman Enthusiast, starting with a C3, later an i1D3, and most recently, the i1D3 profiled against a ColorMunki Photo.

So while I've always found the "sweet spot" idea appealing, I've found no benefit to it over small windows on my 50ST60. With one pattern set, it was obviously harmful. I've evaluated it several times over the 1.5 years I've been doing this as I upgraded my equipment and improved my skills. YMMV, and I'm not saying it can't be useful, just that to evaluate it, you need a good set of reference material, devices that measure the same for the same settings, and a procedure for A/Bing calibrations, such that the switching between calibrations (inputs) is quick enough to be at least somewhat valid. If you have to go into the menu system, fuggedaboutit, unless the differences are truly extreme.
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post #3996 of 4106 Old 08-21-2014, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
how do you measure APL and Luminance to get these % numbers?
I was just using a image editor for an approximation.

Average luminance estimate:
1 - Expand 16-235 levels to 0-255.
2 - Apply a curve to the image to roughly approximate gamma. I was simply using a curve with a point at x=128 and y=55.
3 - Resize image to 1 pixel.
4 - Pull RGB value from pixel.
5 - Divide RGB value by 255 for decimal.
6 - Multiply result by 100 for percentage.

The same process without step 2 is basically average video level (APL).
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post #3997 of 4106 Old 08-21-2014, 01:58 PM
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@sawfish ..sorry for the off topic. Because it will be a really pain in the a... to borrow a colormunki photo, but that's the only spectrometer I could find here, I'd like to know how much it will improve my d3 if I profile it with munki? Was it really off or minor changes (between corrected profile and plasma EDR).
Thanks and sorry again for the OT question.
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post #3998 of 4106 Old 08-21-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrei_VVB View Post
@sawfish ..sorry for the off topic. Because it will be a really pain in the a... to borrow a colormunki photo, but that's the only spectrometer I could find here, I'd like to know how much it will improve my d3 if I profile it with munki? Was it really off or minor changes (between corrected profile and plasma EDR).
Thanks and sorry again for the OT question.
For my ST60, the i1D3 read red a little low, blue a little high compared to the Munki, and it was a pretty steady difference, with red about -1% and blue about +3%. Running each against the same TV settings, the Calman grayscale results (dE Avg, dE Max) were i1D3 (1.29, 1.66) and Munki (1.04, 1.48). (NB: These results and the ones to follow are before tightening up the calibrations; for example, for the ST60, I ended up with (.4, .69) for the profiled i1D3.)

There was a greater difference for my HP Z24i LED monitor. Again the i1D3 read red low and blue high, but the discrepancies increased across the grayscale, reaching about -5% for red and +5% for blue at 100% white. The i1D3 dEs were (1.72, 2.61), and the Munki was (.42, 1).

For my CCFL Sony KDL-EX500, the i1D3 read red high and blue even higher compared to the Munki, with the i1D3 up about +2.5% for red and +5% for blue. The i1D3 dEs were (.97, 2.08), while the Munki dEs were (2.7, 3.9).

Was the Munki worth the $60 rental? I would say yes, but the differences for me weren't huge, and they were larger for the LCDs than the plasma. Of course, without reference level equipment and procedures, I have no way to assess just how accurate the results are, but I am very, very happy with the ST60 picture at this point and the other two displays as well. FWIW, I recently wrote down my ST60 procedures and results here:

http://www.spectracal.com/forum/view...p=35577#p35577

I'm copying the results here, which I think are interesting in light of all the talk about processors and LUTs:

10 point grayscale (.4, .69)
21 point grayscale (.47, 1.53)
25% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.61, 1.48)
50% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.61, 1.4)
75% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.59, 1.89)
100% 10 point Saturation Sweep (.95, 2.69)
ColorChecker (.69, 1.94)
ColorChecker Full, the one with a gazillion points (.81, 2.23)

It's not thousands of points, just hundreds, but the maximum dEs are all below the magic number 3, with the averages below 1.
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post #3999 of 4106 Old 08-21-2014, 02:59 PM
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Thanks for the elaborate answer. I have a feeling my D3 is the same because I feel a little lack in blue. I'll try to get a spectro in a country where talking about calibration is almost SF for many.
All the best!
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post #4000 of 4106 Old 08-25-2014, 10:06 AM
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I need some advice. I used the burnable DVD version to calibrate my PS3 and found it to be an easy enough process. Everything worked as expected, although with the contrast/white adjustment I had many more bars flashing than necessary, even with contrast all the way up. I figure this only be a good thing. I then put the disc in my Xbox One. Black's turned out the same.. but with white, I could only see two bars flashing. If I lower contrast a bit I could barely see a few more, but just barely. Otherwise the picture just continued to dim by lowering contrast any further.

I think the issue is RGB (Xbox One) vs YcCbCr (PS3 bluray output). I have the Xbox set up for PC levels (0-255).. otherwise black looks gray. But I think maybe the correct settings would be to use TV levels and set HDMI Black to Low in my TV setup. Would this help with the white/contrast? If I turn off "Super White" in my PS3 settings I see a similar set of bars flashing to the Xbox One but they are still more clearly defined. Is this anything to be concerned about? Maybe I am over thinking all of this.

I should mention that both systems run to my AVR for the best audio. This means only one HDMI out to the TV so the systems share the same video settings on the TV.

Any advice would be appreciated. I know what I wrote above is probably stupidly confusing, so I apologize in advance.

EDIT: Ok, so I tried exactly as above- Xbox One set to "TV" and HDMI Level on the TV to "Low". PS3 is set YCbCr. Now when using the AVS HD disc I get the exact same output on both. Games + Movies seem to look great now!

Last edited by marcusb84; 08-25-2014 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Update status
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post #4001 of 4106 Old 08-25-2014, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusb84 View Post
I have the Xbox set up for PC levels (0-255)
It sounds like you figured things out, but when a device is outputting PC levels then 235 and above are expected to be the same shade, so they're not expected to flash in that situation. Assuming the device is outputting as expected, what you can see below 235 depends on the display. If you're having issues with PC levels on a TV it probably makes sense to go back to video levels, which it sounds like you did.
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post #4002 of 4106 Old 08-26-2014, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
If you're having issues with PC levels on a TV it probably makes sense to go back to video levels, which it sounds like you did.
Thanks for the response. There is a lot of bad advice out there saying to use "expanded", "PC", or "Full RGB" on game systems. If you are using a PS3, PS4, Xbox One or Xbox 360 I recommend to use standard RGB levels!
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post #4003 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 03:28 AM
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Hello,

I have tried your MP4 videos to calibrate my TC-P50S1 Panasonic Plasma TV connected to my HTPC (HDMI through a receiver) but I get some issues.

First, my goal is not so much accuracy, as it is comfort, I spent too much time looking at it, and it tires my eyes too quickly so I was looking for some optimization there.

The issue I have is to see the flashing bars in 1-Black Clipping, I pretty much need to max out the Brightness and to minimize the contrast, which makes for a pretty bad user experience...
Am I missing something? I'm guessing there is some reason why this happens, but I cannot find it.
In case it helps:
- Color Temperature: Warm (but normal doesn't change the numbers for Black Clipping much anyway)
- C.A.T.S.: I did the calibration with it off, but I actually feel better with it on (it's currently night time).
- *NR: Off
- Sharpness: 75 (I didn't really see any difference in the 5- so I just kept it at standard level)
- Color: 50 (I am not sure if it's best, but it looks okay so kept it at standard)
- Tint: 0 (Was there a video for that one?)
- Brightness: It needs to be around 95 to pass 1-, but it hurts my eyes too much, so I'm back to standard at 50.
- Contrast: It needs to be around 5 to pass 1-, but it hurts my eyes too much, so I'm back to standard at 65.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Last edited by geearf; 08-28-2014 at 03:32 AM.
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post #4004 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
Hello,

I have tried your MP4 videos to calibrate my TC-P50S1 Panasonic Plasma TV connected to my HTPC (HDMI through a receiver) but I get some issues.

First, my goal is not so much accuracy, as it is comfort, I spent too much time looking at it, and it tires my eyes too quickly so I was looking for some optimization there.

The issue I have is to see the flashing bars in 1-Black Clipping, I pretty much need to max out the Brightness and to minimize the contrast, which makes for a pretty bad user experience...
Are you saying you had to turn brightness to max to see only down to the reference black bar (#17)? Also, you shouldn't have to play with contrast for this, only brightness. Contrast is for adjusting whites.

Quote:
- Color: 50 (I am not sure if it's best, but it looks okay so kept it at standard)
- Tint: 0 (Was there a video for that one?)
Color and Tint are on the same test pattern. You need a blue filter or a blue mode on your TV to do this one
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post #4005 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by marcusb84 View Post
Are you saying you had to turn brightness to max to see only down to the reference black bar (#17 )? Also, you shouldn't have to play with contrast for this, only brightness. Contrast is for adjusting whites.


Color and Tint are on the same test pattern. You need a blue filter or a blue mode on your TV to do this one
1- Correct. I pretty much need contrast to be minimum, and brightness to be maximum to see #17 . I cannot see 16 or lower.
(If that helps, I can barely see @234 white bar, nothing more.)

2- Oh I see, I don't have either of these so I guess I can't do it right now, but it's no big deal.
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post #4006 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
1- Correct. I pretty much need contrast to be minimum, and brightness to be maximum to see #17 . I cannot see 16 or lower.
(If that helps, I can barely see @234 white bar, nothing more.)
Is your source set up correctly? I'm not at all familiar with setting up a plasma TV but something sounds really wrong here. Hopefully another member can help out specifically. What are you using as your source?

Quote:
2- Oh I see, I don't have either of these so I guess I can't do it right now, but it's no big deal.
It's not a huge deal at all. Usually these are fairly close to correct anyway. You're much more likely to notice brightness/contrast problems before noticing the color is ever so slightly off.
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post #4007 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by marcusb84 View Post
Is your source set up correctly? I'm not at all familiar with setting up a plasma TV but something sounds really wrong here. Hopefully another member can help out specifically. What are you using as your source?


It's not a huge deal at all. Usually these are fairly close to correct anyway. You're much more likely to notice brightness/contrast problems before noticing the color is ever so slightly off.
1- Hmmm, I hope so.
I looked in my receiver but couldn't find any Video settings (It's a denon 1712).
My source is an HTPC running Arch Linux, connected through hdmi.
I ran with the files with mpv, but just tried mplayer and it seems the same.
The hwdec is vdpau (Gallium3d radeonsi).

I just tried connecting the HTPC directly to the TV (skipping the receiver) and it seems to be the same, so I assume it is not related to the receiver.

2- Cool!

Last edited by geearf; 08-28-2014 at 04:48 AM.
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post #4008 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geearf View Post
1- Hmmm, I hope so.
I looked in my receiver but couldn't find any Video settings (It's a denon 1712).
My source is an HTPC running Arch Linux, connected through hdmi.
I ran with the files with mpv, but just tried mplayer and it seems the same.
The hwdec is vdpau (Gallium3d radeonsi).
If I had my guess it would be that your PC is outputting Full Range (0-255) RGB and not limited which is typically used in TV/Video. Your TV might be full range compatible but you might have to change a setting. If your TV is not compatible you need to look into changing the output from the HTPC somehow.

Edit: I found this in your TVs Manual: Black Level under Advanced Picture "Selects Dark or Light. Valid only for external input signals. (Dark/Light)" Have you tried switching that and recalibrating?

Last edited by marcusb84; 08-28-2014 at 05:14 AM. Reason: more info
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post #4009 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by marcusb84 View Post
If I had my guess it would be that your PC is outputting Full Range (0-255) RGB and not limited which is typically used in TV/Video. Your TV might be full range compatible but you might have to change a setting. If your TV is not compatible you need to look into changing the output from the HTPC somehow.

Edit: I found this in your TVs Manual: Black Level under Advanced Picture "Selects Dark or Light. Valid only for external input signals. (Dark/Light)" Have you tried switching that and recalibrating?
I think you got it!
My TV seems to support only limited range.
I tried running the videos in XBMC, since that allows me to be in Limited Range (and I don't know how to do that at the system level) and now I can see a lot more than #17 without going full brightness (it still needs to be quite high though).
Should I stop when I see "empty" bars flashing or do they need to be "full"? I'm guessing "full" but that will take more brightness...

edit: Black levels didn't really impact that test much. I don't think it is related to the range, but I could be wrong. Thanks for looking in the manual for me!

Thanks!
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post #4010 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 05:24 AM
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I think you got it!
My TV seems to support only limited range.
I tried running the videos in XBMC, since that allows me to be in Limited Range (and I don't know how to do that at the system level) and now I can see a lot more than #17 without going full brightness (it still needs to be quite high though).
Should I stop when I see "empty" bars flashing or do they need to be "full"? I'm guessing "full" but that will take more brightness...

edit: Black levels didn't really impact that test much. I don't think it is related to the range, but I could be wrong. Thanks for looking in the manual for me!

Thanks!
You shouldn't see any bars flashing at 17 or below
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post #4011 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 05:40 AM
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Do you mean with proper settings or with any settings?
I meant that with some settings I could see a lot more, whereas before using limited range it was impossible whatever the settings.
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post #4012 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
Do you mean with proper settings or with any settings?
I meant that with some settings I could see a lot more, whereas before using limited range it was impossible whatever the settings.
Turn up your brightness setting at first and reduce it until you can't see flashing at 17 and below. It should all look solid black past that point.

On the white test I'd crank it up as well and reduce it until it's comfortable and you can at least see 230-234 (preferably a little bit more than 234).
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post #4013 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 06:16 AM
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So I digged a bit more.
I can setup limited range in both XBMC and mpv (my media players) so I can do the setup fine, and watch movies in good condition.

Unfortunately I cannot do that system wise, so when I browse avs. play games, etc. I would still be on full range. I am not sure how good of an idea it is to setup my system for one range, and yet use both.
Hmmmm.
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post #4014 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
So I digged a bit more.
I can setup limited range in both XBMC and mpv (my media players) so I can do the setup fine, and watch movies in good condition.

Unfortunately I cannot do that system wise, so when I browse avs. play games, etc. I would still be on full range. I am not sure how good of an idea it is to setup my system for one range, and yet use both.
Hmmmm.
I know nothing about linux so I don't think I can help there. It isn't a good idea to attempt to run both, thats for sure. I ran into the same problem after getting bad advice for my Xbox One and setting it to full/PC RGB. Once I adjusted that setting my Bluray/Xbox experience has been so improved. Hopefully someone else will be able to offer a suggestion!
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post #4015 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 06:28 AM
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I'm afraid there is no current way to do it at the system level (at least it was officially the case with AMD a few months ago) so I have to figure out a middle ground somehow

Thank you so much for all your help, I would never have found that much on my own!
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post #4016 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
I'm afraid there is no current way to do it at the system level (at least it was officially the case with AMD a few months ago) so I have to figure out a middle ground somehow

Thank you so much for all your help, I would never have found that much on my own!
Good! I'm glad I could be of some help. I had another idea for you to try. By any chance can you set your PCs color space to YCbCr?
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post #4017 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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My PC has an AMD card, and I'm unable to get it to output both video and the desktop at video levels without scaling the video. I think the pixel format setting can force a video level output on my computer, but the video gets scaled to full-range and then back to video levels, so I just let my PC output the full-range default. If you have a display that can accept PC levels I would suggest probably using a full-range (PC) signal with a computer, unless there's a specific reason you need to use video levels. My Sony can accept both a video input or a full-range input without issue, so I just let the PC output full-range.
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post #4018 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by marcusb84 View Post
Good! I'm glad I could be of some help. I had another idea for you to try. By any chance can you set your PCs color space to YCbCr?
As far as I know it's the same as the limited range, it's not available (yet?) :/

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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
My PC has an AMD card, and I'm unable to get it to output both video and the desktop at video levels without scaling the video. I think the pixel format setting can force a video level output on my computer, but the video gets scaled to full-range and then back to video levels, so I just let my PC output the full-range default. If you have a display that can accept PC levels I would suggest probably using a full-range (PC) signal with a computer, unless there's a specific reason you need to use video levels. My Sony can accept both a video input or a full-range input without issue, so I just let the PC output full-range.
I have searched earlier and it doesn't seem like the tv can accept full-range but I'll keep looking in case it does.

Thanks!
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post #4019 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 12:05 PM
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Do you mean with proper settings or with any settings?
I meant that with some settings I could see a lot more, whereas before using limited range it was impossible whatever the settings.
This message explains Video and PC Levels and what you should and shouldn't see in things like Black Clipping, when source and destination levels match (as they must in a properly configured system), and when they don't:

AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
My PC has an AMD card, and I'm unable to get it to output both video and the desktop at video levels without scaling the video. I think the pixel format setting can force a video level output on my computer, but the video gets scaled to full-range and then back to video levels, so I just let my PC output the full-range default.
I keep hearing about this levels round trip. Can anyone tell me how to demonstrate it? (I ask every time it comes up.) Is it just an AMD thing, or does it affect Nvidia and Intel, too?

In particular, if the end result preserves BTB and WTW, then the first leg of the round trip, the expansion from Video to PC Levels, is not losing this information, so if this is the case, it's not at all like actually outputting PC Levels, which loses this information. I would also think/hope it is not limited to integers when expanding the 220 values in the 16-235 range into the 256 values in the 0-255 range, which must be done when actually outputting PC Levels.

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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
If you have a display that can accept PC levels I would suggest probably using a full-range (PC) signal with a computer, unless there's a specific reason you need to use video levels. My Sony can accept both a video input or a full-range input without issue, so I just let the PC output full-range.
Until somebody can tell me how to demonstrate the presumably hugely negative effects of the levels round trip, I will continue to believe the only reason to use PC Levels is to get consistency between desktop and video output, so one collection of TV settings works for both.

For the OP, here are several specific reasons I use Video Levels with my HTPC and its Nvidia GT430, along with a potentially important caveat.

1. Outputting PC Levels sacrifices BTB and WTW, which makes it harder to set Brightness and Contrast, and losing WTW is arguably bad because rarely there can be valid information in 235 and above.

2. For Nvidia cards and the ST60 and Sony LCDs I've hooked up to them, using PC Levels required me to adjust Brightness and Contrast of video in the Nvidia Control Panel, whereas using Video Levels did not; I could do everything on the TV, which is what I want.

3. Using Video Levels also achieved consistency with my Sony S5100 BD player, which unlike my S350 from 2008, does not support PC Levels, and achieving consistency with other devices is a consideration for people going through an AVR or other switch that has only one output.

4. Finally, being able to leave the Nvidia Control Panel Video section at "With the video player" avoids the problem I described here:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=180884

All that said, using Video Levels on the TV does create a levels mismatch for my Nvidia card for desktop graphics, which causes some color fidelity issues for desktop graphics, but they do not impact the usage of the programs I use on my TV, WMC and XBMC, in any way, as I use them solely for video; more on that here:

NVIDIA HTPC 0-255 or 16-235?

I find it's a good trade-off if you don't care about gaming, photo display, etc. I do it on my HTPC for the TV connection, but I do use PC Levels on my gaming machine. YMMV with your specific hardware and software, but these are the sorts of things to be thinking about.
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post #4020 of 4106 Old 08-28-2014, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I keep hearing about this levels round trip. Can anyone tell me how to demonstrate it? (I ask every time it comes up.) Is it just an AMD thing, or does it affect Nvidia and Intel, too?
I can only comment on my AMD card. Screen capture or the color cop progam can pull RGB values. The video and desktop will report as full-range, and that's the way the expansion setting has to be to stay in line with the 0-255 desktop. When the pixel format is set to the limited range it's clear that the pulled RGB values are not what's actually being output, and things are being put in the 16-235 range.

Quote:
In particular, if the end result preserves BTB and WTW, then the first leg of the round trip, the expansion from Video to PC Levels, is not losing this information, so if this is the case, it's not at all like actually outputting PC Levels, which loses this information.
I just tested, and Windows Media Player acts as if the full-range is being scaled back to the limited range, which means BTB and WTW are gone. I'm not sure what the DVD player I tried is doing, but the BTB and WTW are flashing. I would have to do a brightness comparison to guess and didn't have time.
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