AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 135 - AVS Forum
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post #4021 of 4077 Old 08-28-2014, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
I keep hearing about this levels round trip. Can anyone tell me how to demonstrate it? (I ask every time it comes up.) Is it just an AMD thing, or does it affect Nvidia and Intel, too?
I can only comment on my AMD card. Screen capture or the color cop progam can pull RGB values. The video and desktop will report as full-range, and that's the way the expansion setting has to be to stay in line with the 0-255 desktop. When the pixel format is set to the limited range it's clear that the pulled RGB values are not what's actually being output, and things are being put in the 16-235 range.

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In particular, if the end result preserves BTB and WTW, then the first leg of the round trip, the expansion from Video to PC Levels, is not losing this information, so if this is the case, it's not at all like actually outputting PC Levels, which loses this information.
I just tested, and Windows Media Player acts as if the full-range is being scaled back to the limited range, which means BTB and WTW are gone. I'm not sure what the DVD player I tried is doing, but the BTB and WTW are flashing. I would have to do a brightness comparison to guess and didn't have time.
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post #4022 of 4077 Old 08-28-2014, 01:00 PM
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I have not read through the post nor the thread yet. So Im sorry if this question is asked a million times. I dont have time to read everything RIGHT NOW so I thought Id ask and maybe someone can spare me some time.


Do I have to download and burn out these programs? Is it not possible to run them on my computer and through a HDMI cabel to my TV calibrate?
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post #4023 of 4077 Old 08-28-2014, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
As far as I know it's the same as the limited range, it's not available (yet?) :/
The only way I'm aware of to get a limited output for video and the desktop with an AMD card is to leave the video dynamic range on full and switch the pixel format to limited. The screens of those settings are shown at the following link, but it's the reverse of what they're doing:
http://www.avforums.com/threads/the-...hread.1474013/

For whatever reason the drivers I'm running seem to ignore the pixel format setting after a while and return to the default, but if this happens it should be somewhat apparent, and it would show up on the basic settings test patterns. That may just be an issue with my computer. If I had a display that couldn't accept full-range, I would try switching the pixel format setting to limited and see if that worked.
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post #4024 of 4077 Old 08-28-2014, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fbgkimpan View Post
Is it not possible to run them on my computer and through a HDMI cabel to my TV calibrate?
The video can be played on a computer, but it depends on what you're intending to do if that makes much sense. It may or may not make sense to display the video with a computer. For people that want to watch Blu-ray movies from a disc player it generally makes sense to burn a disc.
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post #4025 of 4077 Old 08-28-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
I can only comment on my AMD card. Screen capture or the color cop progam can pull RGB values. The video and desktop will report as full-range, and that's the way the expansion setting has to be to stay in line with the 0-255 desktop. When the pixel format is set to the limited range it's clear that the pulled RGB values are not what's actually being output, and things are being put in the 16-235 range.

I just tested, and Windows Media Player acts as if the full-range is being scaled back to the limited range, which means BTB and WTW are gone. I'm not sure what the DVD player I tried is doing, but the BTB and WTW are flashing. I would have to do a brightness comparison to guess and didn't have time.
Interesting, thanks. The only way I can get desktop output of 16-235 and demonstrate a Video Levels round trip is by setting my Nvidia GT430 "Digital Color Format", AKA Pixel Format, to YCbCr444, which I don't do, as RGB works better with my TV per Spears and Munsil 2nd ed Color Space Evaluation pattern as played on my Sony S5100, and WMC and XBMC calibrate consistently with each other and the BD player when Nvidia is left at the default RGB. With Pixel Format RGB, the video card outputs 0-255, and Video Levels is in principle just passthrough. Further, I have no evidence that it isn't just passthrough in reality. I haven't measured any discrepancies between the BD player and WMC/XBMC, I haven't observed gradient anomalies in one that aren't present in the others, BTB and WTW are fully present and behave as they should when they would have been destroyed in the first leg of this hypothetical levels round trip, etc. The only way I can demonstrate a levels round trip is by using YCbCr444, which compresses all output to 16-235. So I stand by everything I've said about Nvidia cards, as long as one is using the default RGB instead of YCbCr444.

Here's a summary of what I just tried with Windows Media Center (WMC) and Windows Media Player (WMP) in Windows 8.1 x64:

AVS HD 709 Black Clipping played on Panasonic ST60 set to Video Levels, that is, "HDMI/DVI RGB Range" set to "Standard (16-235)"; Nvidia Control Panel at its defaults

Nvidia GT430 "Digital Color Format", AKA Pixel Format, set to RGB, the default, which is what I use

WMC: Video Levels output; the bars contain the pixel values they are labeled with. Pattern appears as it should, and BTB is revealed by turning up Brightness on the TV. This is what I would call "passthrough". This is what I use.

WMP: PC Levels output; the bars < 17 contain 0, 17 contains 1, and so forth. Black is crushed, and BTB has been eliminated. Brightness has to be cranked hugely on the TV to make bars 17 and above flash. This is just simple expansion of Video to PC Levels which would require the TV to be configured to PC Levels for correct viewing.

Nvidia Pixel Format set to YCbCr444, which I don't use, but otherwise the Nvidia Control Panel is at its defaults:

WMC: PC Levels output; the bars < 17 contain 0, 17 contains 1, and so forth. BTB has been eliminated, but bars 17 and above are flashing at my normal Brightness setting. Clearly, the video card is compressing to Video Levels after the PC Levels images are buffered and available to screenshots. This seems to be a "levels round trip", and it applies to all output, video and desktop, making it all "work" when the TV is set to Video Levels. That said, if you want video and desktop consistency, it would be better to use PC Levels for everything if possible, so at least the desktop would be passthrough.

WMP: Just like WMC here. (Note the difference between this and WMP-RGB. Both legs of the round trip are completed here.)

OK, that's it for the Pixel Format experiment. As for the Video section of the Nvidia Control Panel, where you can set the Video Dynamic Range to Limited or Full, it has no effect on the desktop, and I don't think it can contribute to a levels round trip. In any case, I leave the entire Video section at "With the video player settings" and get the results I've described in previous messages.

Last edited by sawfish; 08-28-2014 at 08:09 PM.
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post #4026 of 4077 Old 08-29-2014, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
The only way I'm aware of to get a limited output for video and the desktop with an AMD card is to leave the video dynamic range on full and switch the pixel format to limited. The screens of those settings are shown at the following link, but it's the reverse of what they're doing:
http://www.avforums.com/threads/the-...hread.1474013/

For whatever reason the drivers I'm running seem to ignore the pixel format setting after a while and return to the default, but if this happens it should be somewhat apparent, and it would show up on the basic settings test patterns. That may just be an issue with my computer. If I had a display that couldn't accept full-range, I would try switching the pixel format setting to limited and see if that worked.
Right but you're using the Catalyst drivers, whereas I'm using the Gallium3d ones, which don't offer that. Hopefully they will soon.
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post #4027 of 4077 Old 08-29-2014, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Now I see that it was mentioned up the page. I have a tendency to skim posts if someone else replies and if I'm okay with the response.

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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
1- Correct. I pretty much need contrast to be minimum, and brightness to be maximum to see #17 . I cannot see 16 or lower.
(If that helps, I can barely see @234
Ideally adjacent bars should generally be difficult to see, so if you're using a computer or something else that cuts off the video range then 17 and 234 should be difficult to distinguish. There is an alternate description for brightness with the second pattern. The second pattern may or may not result in a different brightness setting than the first pattern, depending on how the display performs. The second description is more in line with the way the commercial discs suggest for setting brightness.

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post #4028 of 4077 Old 09-01-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Ideally adjacent bars should generally be difficult to see, so if you're using a computer or something else that cuts off the video range then 17 and 234 should be difficult to distinguish. There is an alternate description for brightness with the second pattern. The second pattern may or may not result in a different brightness setting than the first pattern, depending on how the display performs. The second description is more in line with the way the commercial discs suggest for setting brightness.
Got it, the 2nd pattern seems easier to use since it's mirrored, but maybe it's just my imagination.

Now what should I do if contrast doesn't matter on the 3rd pattern, ie any setting from 0 to 100 shows every blinking lane?
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post #4029 of 4077 Old 09-01-2014, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by geearf View Post
Got it, the 2nd pattern seems easier to use since it's mirrored, but maybe it's just my imagination.

Now what should I do if contrast doesn't matter on the 3rd pattern, ie any setting from 0 to 100 shows every blinking lane?
contrast patterns are useful when you want to maximize the light output.
you look for subtle color shifts and when you lose detail between the levels.
the 3 color red green blue blinking pattern is useful to see which color runs out.
the 2 patterns give you an idea how far you can go and still maintain balance.
this info gives you a max light output and balance for your contrast setting.

seems some TVs calibrate better when the contrast is high just before clipping of colors
.other TVs may calibrate better at specific foot lambert which are well below the max .
it is good to know when the TV can't put out balance light.

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post #4030 of 4077 Old 09-01-2014, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Now what should I do if contrast doesn't matter on the 3rd pattern, ie any setting from 0 to 100 shows every blinking lane?
I'm basically going to opt-out on this question, since someone familiar with the particular plasma display could probably give a more thorough answer on how they would approach the question. White level can be a little more subjective than black level, especially for plasma displays. Like mentioned in the prior reply, Misc Patterns A3 & A4 are basic checks on what is happening with color, mainly to make sure you are not going too high with contrast. Discoloration and eye fatigue are a couple subjective items mentioned in the manual, which again are simply recommendations to avoid going too high on contrast. With a meter to measure the screen a shade of white and brightness of white can have recommended targets, but setting contrast that way requires a meter. Without a meter it's possible that the display may not fail any of the given tests for white level, so I would tend to refer you to the main forum for discussions on plasma white level particulars, or to a discussion about your display model. While it's a simple question, I'm simply going to suggest that someone else could address the question more thoroughly for plasma than I can. There may be a range of acceptable settings, depending on which subjective course of action you choose to take. For example I've seen people recommend for plasma to start at a low setting and turn up contrast to a level that you personally consider white reasonably bright, and so if you use that sort of method the answer will completely depend on the person doing the adjustment.

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post #4031 of 4077 Old 09-04-2014, 07:14 PM
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Can someone host the unzipped md4 file so I can try to download directly to my ps4 or try atleast? My PS4 only will download items that it know how to deal with (not .exe or .7z)

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post #4032 of 4077 Old 09-04-2014, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by fbgkimpan View Post
I have not read through the post nor the thread yet. So Im sorry if this question is asked a million times. I dont have time to read everything RIGHT NOW so I thought Id ask and maybe someone can spare me some time.


Do I have to download and burn out these programs? Is it not possible to run them on my computer and through a HDMI cabel to my TV calibrate?
I am curious about this as well. Let me know if you figure this one out.
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post #4033 of 4077 Old 09-07-2014, 08:46 AM
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Hi @All !

I just tried to download the AVS Hd 709 BR-Disc by clicking on the link HDMV(.exe) in the first post but instead of starting a download I get redirected to *******/dUTW7i?gdriveurl. Why is that? Are the images no longer available?

Ciao
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post #4034 of 4077 Old 09-07-2014, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply about the links not working. I relinked the files, and that seemed to work in testing. If it doesn't work there is a set of alternate downloads links here:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

Last edited by alluringreality; 09-07-2014 at 01:33 PM.
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post #4035 of 4077 Old 10-01-2014, 10:36 PM
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Hey thanks a ton for creating this video setup guide. I have managed to get the disc to work perfectly on my Sony BDP S550. My TV is a Samsung LN52A750. One of the settings that is giving me difficulty is the contrast and white settings. When I use the white clipping and colour clipping videos, I have to either drop my red offset and gain significantly or crank up the green offset and gain. The contrast when set to max and the white balance red, green and blue are set to neutral (25/50), in the white clipping contrast video the flashing bars take on a reddish tinge. When I use the colour clipping video and crank the green up to about 40/50 to get bars 235-251 to stop flashing, those flashing bars in the white clipping video take on a greenish tinge.

I find it difficult to get the flashing bars to stop flashing after their recommended levels for green and blue. Red seems to be affected significantly by the contrast setting while the others are not as affected by a high contrast setting. All the superfluous settings are turned off such as dynamic contrast, black adjust etc. Colour temperature is set to Warm 2 and gamma is set to 0. I've got my black level to perfect according to the black level test on the disc, and my colour saturation is set to 52/100.

Unless I'm misinterpreting the manual where bars 219-235 most certainly need to flash but 235-251 are allowed to blend or flash. So in other words should I just leave white balance at their neutral positions and adjust the contrast setting until the red bar in the colour clipping is at least flashing at 219-235.
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post #4036 of 4077 Old 10-03-2014, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacHound View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by g4s

Just a tip, if you're new to Macs. Check out the Unarchiver. It opens just about anything with a double click, including 7zips. http://wakaba.c3.cx/s/apps/unarchiver.html


Great tip. I consider Unarchiver to be an essential Mac utility. I've been using it for years and it's still one of the best freeware programs around. Just to note, the current version of Unarchiver (2.2) includes XAD libraries that work beautifully with .7z files but some earlier versions (1.x) do not work well with 7-zip. There should be no problem as long as you are using Unarchiver 2.2 or later.

To be crystal clear for Mac beginners, once you extract the *.7z file to an *.iso file on your desktop, drag that *.iso file onto Disk Utility's icon (the disk with stethoscope icon in the Mac dock). Disk Utility's icon will bounce a couple of times while the program launches. Select the *.iso file below the gray separator bar in Disk Utility's left pane, insert a blank DVD, wait a few moments for the blank DVD to be recognized, then hit the black-and-yellow burn button. After Disk Utility completes the burn, it will typically spit out your newly burned disk (unless you clicked the "Mount on Desktop" option.) Trying to play this disk in your Mac's DVD player is pointless; it's designed for Blu-ray players.

Once you've confirmed you have a working AVSHC 709 disk in your Blu-ray player, you can safely trash the *.iso file. Keep the .7z file around if you want to make further copies in the future.

I hope that helps AVS Mac users. It really could not be simpler.
when I extract I only get folders with videos in them instead of one ISO file. Any idea?
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post #4037 of 4077 Old 10-03-2014, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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when I extract I only get folders with videos in them instead of one ISO file. Any idea?
The MP4 version decompresses to folders with videos and the other versions decompress to iso files.
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post #4038 of 4077 Old 10-03-2014, 08:08 AM
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The MP4 version decompresses to folders with videos and the other versions decompress to iso files.
OK i see. AVCHD is the file for xbox one. Thanks

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post #4039 of 4077 Old 10-03-2014, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Unless I'm misinterpreting the manual where bars 219-235 most certainly need to flash but 235-251 are allowed to blend or flash.
This is correct, the intent is to see flasing below 235 on the clipping patterns.

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So in other words should I just leave white balance at their neutral positions and adjust the contrast setting until the red bar in the colour clipping is at least flashing at 219-235.
The white balance settings can often interact with contrast and brightness, but generally those controls are intended for adjusting the grayscale. As noted, it's possible that you may need to lower contrast to see flashing below 235 on the clipping test patterns.
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post #4040 of 4077 Old 10-06-2014, 03:12 PM
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For the contrast at 235, is it suppose to be just barley visible and flashing or clearly there? Same with the black on the brightness on the 17. Thank you in advance and thank you for putting this all together.
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post #4041 of 4077 Old 10-06-2014, 08:19 PM
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Just barely...
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post #4042 of 4077 Old 10-06-2014, 09:18 PM
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Just barely...
But what about this, this thread seems to contradict what you are saying.
Epson 8700UB use extended or normal video range?
Its a short thread and seems to contradict alot of what others are saying. So any and all opinions would be great.
People seem to go back and fourth on weather to go to 255 or 234 and to go normal or expanded on the hdmi range. so when calibrating. So i think it will be interesting if people read it, then reply here.

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post #4043 of 4077 Old 10-06-2014, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
This is correct, the intent is to see flasing below 235 on the clipping patterns.



The white balance settings can often interact with contrast and brightness, but generally those controls are intended for adjusting the grayscale. As noted, it's possible that you may need to lower contrast to see flashing below 235 on the clipping test patterns.
Thank you for the reply.
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post #4044 of 4077 Old 10-07-2014, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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For the contrast at 235, is it suppose to be just barley visible and flashing or clearly there? Same with the black on the brightness on the 17. Thank you in advance and thank you for putting this all together.
Generally picture information is between 16-235. Unlike what the HD Nation video suggests, you should not really be able to pick out the flashing at 17 in your typical viewing conditions. The flashing at 17 should be extremely difficult to detect, but this sort of depends on the display. White is a little more debated, with some people even suggesting to show the entire range, but I don't agree with that at all (Brightness / Contrast Setting Confusion). You may need to show more than 235 in order to get around display issues, like if the display drops gamma where it clips, so again it depends a bit on the display. Really A2, A3, and A4 should be looked at, rather than just relying on where white clips. The Misc A3 and A4 may be easier to detect issues with than where white clips. Anyway, if you want more details about the debate around white read the link, and if you have more questions ask again.

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post #4045 of 4077 Old 10-07-2014, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by metalguy View Post
But what about this, this thread seems to contradict what you are saying.
Epson 8700UB use extended or normal video range?
Its a short thread and seems to contradict alot of what others are saying. So any and all opinions would be great.
People seem to go back and fourth on weather to go to 255 or 234 and to go normal or expanded on the hdmi range. so when calibrating. So i think it will be interesting if people read it, then reply here.
I went back and read the link. I have never looked at an Epson projector, but based on the naming I would expect Normal to work with a video input (16-235) and Expanded to work with a computer-range input (0-255). If you have access to measurement equipment I might expect 235 to be brighter on the same settings with the Normal setting compared to Expanded, at least my Sony TVs adjust light output depending if the input was set for the video range or computer range. Unless you have a clear reason not to use Normal, I would expect that you should be using the Normal setting with most devices that output a video range, so basically I agree with the replies from dominickwok.

When it comes to contrast on any contrast-limited display, which means most consumer displays and especially projectors, I simply do not agree with Michael TLV or Stacy Spears regarding the absolute need to display all video levels to 254 at the display. I'm not going to hunt down the link out of this thread at this time, but the reply from Charles Poynton suggested that it's generally acceptable if video information above 235 is lost at the display, but he does make the common "specular highlights" claim in that reply. Looking at consumer video I was not able to find information above 235 that would clearly be accurate to the original source, but I was not looking at examples of animation (Cars and Ice Age examples). Most of the decoded RGB information above 235 and below 16 generally looked like unintended artifacts to me from the video examples I happend to pull, so I simply do not agree with Michael TLV or Stacy Spears that it's absolutely important to retain such information on any contrast-limited display. From a practical standpoint I don't see the benefit of throwing away light output on video information that is rarely used, and the reply from Light Illusion at Brightness / Contrast Setting Confusion would seem to support the impression I got from pulling decoded RGB values from video clips. Outside of some animation examples, I have not ran across many people that are willing to give specific examples of where clearly-accurate video information above 235 might be commonly found, and I have some big reservations about most video actually containing "specular highlights" above 235, although I consider it a given that you will find RGB values above 235 that are likely not accurate to the original video source. Of course a big issue with my position is that it goes against people that should know what they're talking about, but I also have some other questions that the calibration industry does not really seem to address very well in my opinion.

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post #4046 of 4077 Old 10-07-2014, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post

When it comes to contrast on any contrast-limited display, which means most consumer displays and especially projectors, I simply do not agree with Michael TLV or Stacy Spears regarding the absolute need to display all video levels to 254 at the display.
I agree, the only valid technical reason I've ever seen for avoiding display clipping at 235 is due to a display inadequacy like color shifting. You should set the display clipping at a point >= 235 based on environmental needs and to avoid eyestrain. A better argument can actually be made to always clip above 235 if possible, since any information here is most likely rounding errors in the mastering to end-user encode/decode chain RGB->YCC->RGB. This is certainly true for below black codes.
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post #4047 of 4077 Old 10-09-2014, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
I went back and read the link. I have never looked at an Epson projector, but based on the naming I would expect Normal to work with a video input (16-235) and Expanded to work with a computer-range input (0-255). If you have access to measurement equipment I might expect 235 to be brighter on the same settings with the Normal setting compared to Expanded, at least my Sony TVs adjust light output depending if the input was set for the video range or computer range. Unless you have a clear reason not to use Normal, I would expect that you should be using the Normal setting with most devices that output a video range, so basically I agree with the replies from dominickwok.
Personally, I agree with the replies from Kilgore. This is how you would expect any display to work where Normal and Expanded are concerned, but not on Epson projectors. This is what happens on an Epson PJ:

Normal clips BTB (below 17) but passes WTW (above 235)
Expanded doesn't clip either. Both BTB and WTW are displayed.


So, if you display the AVSHD Brightness pattern you would see this:
Normal: 17 and up ( 16 and below are NOT displayed)
Expanded: ALL bars can be made to flash


If you display the AVSHD Contrast pattern, regardless of whether you set the Epson to Normal or Expanded, ALL bars can be made to flash.


Obviously, this is NOT how you would expect "Normal" and "Expanded" to work, but on Epsons, this is indeed how they work. In other words:
Normal = 17-255
Expanded = 0-255


EDIT: This is what I found on both my Epson 6100 and Epson 8350s. It's possible that this may have changed with the 5030s but I doubt it.

Last edited by Kilgore; 10-09-2014 at 07:07 PM.
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post #4048 of 4077 Old 10-11-2014, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
Obviously, this is NOT how you would expect "Normal" and "Expanded" to work, but on Epsons, this is indeed how they work.
As I put in my reply to the thread, how does it matter if Normal clips gray luma values below 16, as long as your video source is correctly outputting video levels? There's usually no reason to expect to display information below 16 with a video source. The original post from the thread suggests:

I prefer it set to "normal". If I set it to expanded everything looks washed out and undersaturated.

Based on that comment it would seem that something else could be going on with the two settings, and I think the subjective impression deserves a more thorough look than just seeing which bars are flashing. One simple thing that could be checked by eye, but which would be easier to observe with measurements, would be to look at the brightness of white. Does the brightness of white change depending if Normal or Expanded is selected? For example does 100% reference white (235) dim when the display is changed from Normal to Expanded? To look further at things it might make sense to compare say color or saturation measurements to try to make a guess at the reason for the reported subjective difference. I totally get that generally people want easy explanations, but if it was my display I wouldn't care at all about which bars flash and I would try to explain what is happening that makes a subjective difference. I have never looked at an Epson, but on my display using Expanded for a video source would simply be incorrect, and it would generally result in the reported subjective difference, for example on my display reference white would dim with Expanded and user contrast could not make up for the difference. Anyway, in my opinion, I think it makes sense to address the reported subjective difference from the discussion, and flashing bars would not seem to do that, since the 1-15 gray luma values are not really expected to display with a video source.

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Normal: 17 and up ( 16 and below are NOT displayed)
If you can see the gray 17 bar flash it means that luma 16 is actually being displayed, because the flashing happens as the video alternates between video levels. The video specifications reserve 255. The way I read it everyone is reporting the Normal setting can display 16-254 gray luma values. Unless your source has issues, and the source outputs modified values, no one seems to be explaining how the Normal setting on the Epson might be a problem. On the other hand the subjective impression suggests that Expanded might actually be an issue when using a video source.

Last edited by alluringreality; 10-11-2014 at 09:15 AM.
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post #4049 of 4077 Old 10-11-2014, 12:55 PM
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The problem is (and always has been with these discussions involving Epsons) that people naturally equate "Normal" with Video Levels and "Expanded" with PC Levels. The thing is that this is NOT how the Epsons use of the terms work. That's all.


You can certainly calibrate an Epson using the Normal setting. You just won't see BTB when you set the black level, no matter where you set brightness. You will be able to see WTW if you turn down contrast. No matter where you set the Brightness you will never see luma 16 or below. So you set the Brightness so you see 17 flashing and then lower it until it just disappears and all is good.


If you set the Epson to Expanded, you will be able to see BTB and WTW, so you adjust your Brightness and Contrast accordingly. The only difference is that using Expanded makes setting black level easier.


The confusion lies in the terminology. If (as would be normally expected) Expanded on an Epson meant it was expecting PC levels, and you fed it a Video Levels based signal, you would never EVER see BTB or WTW material. This is not the case on an Epson. Feed it a Video Levels signal and set it to Expanded, and you get BTB and WTW. I've owned two of them over the last 5 years and they have always worked this way.


Interestingly, when I set my 8350 to Auto instead of Normal/Expanded and play back your disc (or S&M or Get Gray or WOW etc) in my OPPO BDP-93, the Epson shows BTB and WTW material, which is what you get when you set it to Expanded.


Confusing I know. But that is the way it is.


EDIT: BTW, if I calibrate using Normal, my approximate settings are Contrast = 0, Brightness = -7. Set it to Expanded, and my approximate setting are Contrast +10, Brightness =-10. In either case, I would be seeing luma 17-234.

Last edited by Kilgore; 10-11-2014 at 01:01 PM.
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post #4050 of 4077 Old 10-11-2014, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
The confusion lies in the terminology. If (as would be normally expected) Expanded on an Epson meant it was expecting PC levels, and you fed it a Video Levels based signal, you would never EVER see BTB or WTW material. This is not the case on an Epson. Feed it a Video Levels signal and set it to Expanded, and you get BTB and WTW. I've owned two of them over the last 5 years and they have always worked this way.
You're right. I am confused by your terminology.

Quote:
If (as would be normally expected) Expanded on an Epson meant it was expecting PC levels, and you fed it a Video Levels based signal, you would never EVER see BTB or WTW material. This is not the case on an Epson.
1. If by "Video Levels based signal", you mean a signal whose range is 16-235, you would never see BTB or WTW regardless of what setting you used on the display, because they cannot exist in the signal. (It's possible to cause an Nvidia card to output such a signal by choosing the YCbCr444 option, which causes it to compress all output to 16-235.)

2. If instead you mean you're outputting video at Video Levels within a signal whose range is 0-255 (e.g. untouched video from a PC whose output you haven't derped with, say, the aforementioned YCbCr444 option), then you've got it backwards provided the source isn't clipping BTB and WTW. You would expect to see BTB and WTW when the source is at Video Levels and the display is at PC Levels.

Quote:
Feed it a Video Levels signal and set it to Expanded, and you get BTB and WTW. I've owned two of them over the last 5 years and they have always worked this way.
Now you're making it sound like BTB and WTW are in the "Video Levels signal", which means the signal has to be 0-255. So I guess it's (2).

NB: I'm assuming the Epson is just altering its black and white points and isn't doing any expansion or compression of the pixel values. If it's messing with pixel values, the bars in the AVS HD 709 clipping patterns won't contain the values they are labeled with. Of course, I'm also assuming the bars do contain the values they are labeled with as output from the source.
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