AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 136 - AVS Forum
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post #4051 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
The problem is (and always has been with these discussions involving Epsons) that people naturally equate "Normal" with Video Levels and "Expanded" with PC Levels. The thing is that this is NOT how the Epsons use of the terms work. That's all.
sounds like the epson is talking about normal and expanded HDMI, meaning it allows BTB/WTW through when "expanded" but clips to 16-235 for "normal" and is otherwise not doing any level stretching. This is the same thing the PS3 does with it's YCC output, superwhite on=expanded, off=clipped to 235.
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post #4052 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
sounds like the epson is talking about normal and expanded HDMI, meaning it allows BTB/WTW through when "expanded" but clips to 16-235 for "normal" and is otherwise not doing any level stretching. This is the same thing the PS3 does with it's YCC output, superwhite on=expanded, off=clipped to 235.
If the only difference is clipping BTB/WTW and not clipping them, how is it useful? All clipping BTB does it make it harder to calibrate Brightness. Clipping WTW doesn't seem helpful unless WTW is known to contain garbage.
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post #4053 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 03:28 PM
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post #4054 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Why does the PS allow you to clip WTW? There are a lot of useless controls on both playback and display devices.
I've never dealt with one and have always puzzled over discussions of the feature. It always sounded useless to me. I guess you're confirming my impression?
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post #4055 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
I've never dealt with one and have always puzzled over discussions of the feature. It always sounded useless to me. I guess you're confirming my impression?
yes, I think all allowable codes should be passed to the display where you can clip what you want using the display controls.
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post #4056 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 04:22 PM
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Can these work off of a network share?
I have a bluray player that can play off Samba shares and now have a Roku3 that can go off media server running on my PC.
I just moved and have yet to find my stacks of blank dvd-r's.
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post #4057 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
sounds like the epson is talking about normal and expanded HDMI, meaning it allows BTB/WTW through when "expanded" but clips to 16-235 for "normal" and is otherwise not doing any level stretching. This is the same thing the PS3 does with it's YCC output, superwhite on=expanded, off=clipped to 235.

That's almost exactly what happens, but the only difference is that "normal" only clips below 17, and not above 235. In other words, once again, with Normal, BTB is clipped and WTW is not and with Expanded, nothing clips...both BTB and WTW are allowed.


People always argue with me on this. I'm not saying this is what is supposed to happen, but that this is what happens, period.


If they called these settings anything other than Normal and Expanded, people wouldn't be giving me such a hard time. Either one works to calibrate. You either get BTB clipped or you don't.


Don't shoot the messenger...shout at Epson for their confusing setting naming conventions.

Last edited by Kilgore; 10-11-2014 at 05:49 PM.
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post #4058 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
That's almost exactly what happens, but the only difference is that "normal" only clips below 17, and not above 235. In other words, once again, with Normal, BTB is clipped and WTW is not and with Expanded, nothing clips...both BTB and WTW are allowed.

People always argue with me on this. I'm not saying this is what is supposed to happen, but that this is what happens, period.

If they called these settings anything other than Normal and Expanded, people wouldn't be giving me such a hard time. Either one works to calibrate. You either get BTB clipped or you don't.

Don't shoot the messenger...shout at Epson for their confusing setting naming conventions.
As I said in my reply to you and went on to explain, I was confused by your terminology, not the Epson Normal/Expanded mess:

AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

Your first paragraph above is clear. Your prior post, however, was rather muddled.
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post #4059 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post
No matter where you set the Brightness you will never see luma 16 or below. So you set the Brightness so you see 17 flashing and then lower it until it just disappears and all is good.
Again, if you can see the gray luma bar marked 17 flash that means that luma 16 is also displaying. Your comment suggests that gray luma values 1-16 are displaying the same as 16.

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If (as would be normally expected) Expanded on an Epson meant it was expecting PC levels, and you fed it a Video Levels based signal, you would never EVER see BTB or WTW material.
Feed a video range signal into a display set for computer levels and the display will tend to show what you label BTB (1-15) and WTW (236-254). Computer levels suggest that you want to display levels 0-255, where 0 is expected to represent black and 255 is expected to represent white. Feeding video levels into the computer range scenario means 16 (video black) is simply elevated to 6% of the expected range and 235 (video white) would fall around 92% of the expected range, and the entire 1-254 video range would be expected to show up on a display set to differentiate 0-255.

On the other hand feeding a computer signal (0-255) into a display set to expect a video level signal is generally more likely to cause easy to spot issues, since the video range only really expects to display 16-235. The real video range is actually 1-254, but 16 is expected to represent black and 235 is expected to represent white. If you feed a computer signal into a display that clips information below 16 and above 235 then you will lose dark gray and near white information from the computer signal, since 0-15 and 236-255 would not be expected to display in such a scenario.

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BTW, if I calibrate using Normal, my approximate settings are Contrast = 0, Brightness = -7. Set it to Expanded, and my approximate setting are Contrast +10, Brightness =-10. In either case, I would be seeing luma 17-234.
I'm not going to go look up what the default settings are, and I have no idea how either the default or modified settings relate to luminance levels, so the settings really don't have much context to me. On that note I'm going to drop out of the Epson-specific discussion. Unless metalguy has a question in relation to observed display performance, it seems somewhat pointless here.

Last edited by alluringreality; 10-12-2014 at 02:23 AM.
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post #4060 of 4075 Old 10-11-2014, 11:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TheGlow View Post
Can these work off of a network share?
I have a bluray player that can play off Samba shares and now have a Roku3 that can go off media server running on my PC.
I don't know the capabilities of these items, so I don't know if they work with MP4 video files or Blu-ray related information. I'd guess the media server option might be able to play MP4 video.
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post #4061 of 4075 Old 10-12-2014, 02:33 PM
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If I used this disc to adjust a pc monitor settings would I actually adjust to not see levels 0-16 in the black level test? Because the Lagom website recommends that levels 0-16 are viewable. I use my monitor for gaming, videos, gaming videos, and overall general use.
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post #4062 of 4075 Old 10-12-2014, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
If you can see the gray 17 bar flash it means that luma 16 is actually being displayed, because the flashing happens as the video alternates between video levels.
I don't understand that. With my PC as the source, Bar 17 alternates between 17 and 1. All the bars contain the pixel values they are labeled with, and they all flash between those values and 1. On my plasma, Bar 17 flashes, but Bar 16 does not unless I turn Brightness up. There is no residual dithering.

I know you've been talking about projectors, but I still don't see how it fits.
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post #4063 of 4075 Old 10-12-2014, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by EpsilonGhost View Post
If I used this disc to adjust a pc monitor settings would I actually adjust to not see levels 0-16 in the black level test? Because the Lagom website recommends that levels 0-16 are viewable. I use my monitor for gaming, videos, gaming videos, and overall general use.
For a PC monitor, you should see 0-255 in images, games, desktop, everything but video.

Video on a PC monitor needs to be expanded to PC levels, and you will never see 0-16 or 235-255 in video because those values are lost in the expansion. If you see them, this means the expansion is not being done, and you have a levels mismatch.

See this message for more:

AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration
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post #4064 of 4075 Old 10-12-2014, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
I don't understand that. With my PC as the source, Bar 17 alternates between 17 and 1. All the bars contain the pixel values they are labeled with, and they all flash between those values and 1. On my plasma, Bar 17 flashes, but Bar 16 does not unless I turn Brightness up.
Assuming that all of the information below video black is being displayed as black, then the flashing to gray luma 1 on the first pattern effectively becomes flashing to luma 16, since there would be nothing displayed differently between the 1-16 values. In that scenario, where 16 is the darkest luma value displayed, you will not see the gray luma 16 bar flash. If you can see the 17 bar flash on the first pattern then at least one darker luma value is actually being displayed, because if 17 was the darkest shade displayed then there would be no darker shade to display and cause the 17 bar to flash. Anyway, the basic idea is that the darkest shade displayed is not expected to flash on the first pattern.

Last edited by alluringreality; 10-12-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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post #4065 of 4075 Old 10-12-2014, 07:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpsilonGhost View Post
If I used this disc to adjust a pc monitor settings would I actually adjust to not see levels 0-16 in the black level test? Because the Lagom website recommends that levels 0-16 are viewable. I use my monitor for gaming, videos, gaming videos, and overall general use.
Like sawfish basically commented, you probably want to calibrate a computer monitor using patterns that are intended for that application. Personally I like http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1229341512 for some simple computer patterns. You can then use the patterns here to check that you can correctly see the 16-235 video information, as explained in the PDF from the first post here.

Last edited by alluringreality; 10-12-2014 at 07:19 PM.
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post #4066 of 4075 Old 10-12-2014, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
If you can see the 17 bar flash on the first pattern then at least one darker luma value is actually being displayed, because if 17 was the darkest shade displayed then there would be no darker shade to display and cause the 17 bar to flash. Anyway, the basic idea is that the darkest shade displayed is not expected to flash on the first pattern.
Oh, OK. When you said, "if you can see the gray 17 bar flash it means that luma 16 is actually being displayed," I interpreted "displayed" as luma 16 producing light output. Being deepest black, of course 16 is part of the palette, but I didn't recognize that's what you were getting at.
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post #4067 of 4075 Old 10-13-2014, 05:10 AM
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I m looking for test patterns for doing a Advanced Color Management measurement in Chromapure. Where can I find test patterns for this? I assume I need the following test patterns for this:


Red 100%
Red 75%
Red 50%
Red 25%
Green 100%
Green 75%
Green 50%
Green 25%
Blue 100%
Blue 75%
Blue 50%
Blue 25%
Magenta 100%
Magenta 75%
Magenta 50%
Magenta 25%
Yellow 100%
Yellow 75%
Yellow 50%
Yellow 25%
Cyan 100%
Cyan 75%
Cyan 50%
Cyab 25%


I can only find 100 and 75% patterns in the AVS 709 disc.
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post #4068 of 4075 Old 10-13-2014, 05:38 AM - Thread Starter
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The Chromapure demo video shows saturation and amplitude in the pulldown selection. There are not any 25% and 50% patterns for the amplitude selection in this project. I think Chromapure has a related disc, so maybe it's on there, I can't say.
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post #4069 of 4075 Old 10-15-2014, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sawfish View Post
For a PC monitor, you should see 0-255 in images, games, desktop, everything but video.

Video on a PC monitor needs to be expanded to PC levels, and you will never see 0-16 or 235-255 in video because those values are lost in the expansion. If you see them, this means the expansion is not being done, and you have a levels mismatch.

See this message for more:

AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration
Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Like sawfish basically commented, you probably want to calibrate a computer monitor using patterns that are intended for that application. Personally I like http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1229341512 for some simple computer patterns. You can then use the patterns here to check that you can correctly see the 16-235 video information, as explained in the PDF from the first post here.
Thanks you guys, I'm a little confused about whether or not I'm getting expansion, but I'll read the other post for more info. Thanks again
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post #4070 of 4075 Old 10-15-2014, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Typically computers are expected to modify (expand) the video signal so that video black (16) becomes computer black (0) and video white (235) becomes computer white (255). If that happens then you might expect the bars numbered 17-234 to flash on the first three basic settings patterns and pattern Misc. A4, assuming the monitor has been set to display the 0-255 computer range. Things like video program settings or video driver settings may affect expansion, so it's possible you could see something other than 17-234 flash on those video patterns. On my computer I've seen both examples of typical and non-typical expansion. Generally you want to see the flashing for 17-234 video, but the default settings may produce something different, for example I've seen different video driver versions result in various amounts of default expansion.
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post #4071 of 4075 Old 10-16-2014, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Typically computers are expected to modify (expand) the video signal so that video black (16) becomes computer black (0) and video white (235) becomes computer white (255). If that happens then you might expect the bars numbered 17-234 to flash on the first three basic settings patterns and pattern Misc. A4, assuming the monitor has been set to display the 0-255 computer range. Things like video program settings or video driver settings may affect expansion, so it's possible you could see something other than 17-234 flash on those video patterns. On my computer I've seen both examples of typical and non-typical expansion. Generally you want to see the flashing for 17-234 video, but the default settings may produce something different, for example I've seen different video driver versions result in various amounts of default expansion.
So basically from what you put, and what sawfish posted before I understand that if my monitor and my pc are both set to computer levels or 0-255 then I should only see above 16 and below 235 flash because of the expansion you've mentioned. And that if both are set to video levels than I should see everything flash, am I correct? I assume this also applies to the black level setting on lcd tv's?
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post #4072 of 4075 Old 10-16-2014, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, seeing above 16 and below 235 would be the typical expectation for a situation with video expansion to computer levels. If you don't expand the video and display it on a computer monitor then you are likely to see the entire video range. The black level setting on an LCD TV will sort of similarly be able to affect what information from the video is displayed, and as explained in the PDF from the first post, the general idea is that you typically want to display at least the 16-235 information. That means you would want at least 17-234 to flash, but ideally adjacent levels should be very difficult to detect, so on better displays seeing 17 or 18 flash with typical room lighting may be extremely difficult to ever notice.
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post #4073 of 4075 Old 10-18-2014, 10:42 AM
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I have a question about the color clipping pattern under misc, is it ok if there is no clipping happening? Ive adjusted all other settings accordingly but when viewing the color clipping pattern I can see flashing bars all the way up to 251.
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post #4074 of 4075 Old 10-18-2014, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it's fine if there is flashing for 251 on the A4 Color Clipping pattern. You want to at least see 219-233 flash, and if you see all of 219-251 flash that's also okay. In my opinion the only thing to really watch out for on that pattern is if you don't see flashing on the bars numbered 219-233. Some people and some manufacturers actually think it's absolutely imperative to always show flashing at 251, but from a practical standpoint I simply don't agree with that perspective. Anyway, if you see flashing for 251 on the A4 Color Clipping pattern then you're good. For example the recent Sony TV I bought is actually setup that way, the user contrast can be set all the way to the maximum and 251 will still flash when everything is working properly.
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post #4075 of 4075 Old 10-18-2014, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Yes, it's fine if there is flashing for 251 on the A4 Color Clipping pattern. You want to at least see 219-233 flash, and if you see all of 219-251 flash that's also okay. In my opinion the only thing to really watch out for on that pattern is if you don't see flashing on the bars numbered 219-233. Some people and some manufacturers actually think it's absolutely imperative to always show flashing at 251, but from a practical standpoint I simply don't agree with that perspective. Anyway, if you see flashing for 251 on the A4 Color Clipping pattern then you're good. For example the recent Sony TV I bought is actually setup that way, the user contrast can be set all the way to the maximum and 251 will still flash when everything is working properly.
Thanks for the quick reply and great info
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