AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration - Page 138 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4111 of 4130 Old 01-05-2015, 06:12 PM
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Greetings everyone:

I have a question.
I have an AMD 280X which I have connected to my HDTV through HDMI.
I'm also connected to my PC monitor through DVI and I'm mirroring the displays.

I've set my HDTV output to RGB Limited and I have set the HDMI Black Levels on my set (LG) to Low.

However on my PC side, when I open the MP4 videos with VLC or Media Player Classic, I either get all the levels below 16 and above 235 clipped, or if I set the video to display the limited RGB range, I get everything washed out (I think as intended, since on my HDTV it shows fine and I can calibrate correctly by dropping Brightness to 38 for example)

My question here is: How can I, considering Full RGB on my PC side, calibrate correctly without clipping anything from the MP4 videos? I've tried everything but I always get clipped information. Even from Youtube videos with the same AVS HD 709 patterns. What am I doing wrong? Or is it supposed to clip?
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post #4112 of 4130 Old 01-13-2015, 07:55 AM
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AVS Brightness Calibration question

On my PN51F8500, when using AVS Brightness Calibration, brightness 47 & 48 work, showing everything up to bar 16. With brightness at 46, bar 17 disappears, 49 bar 16 starts to appear and 50 the entire screen dithers green.

Should I go with brightness of 47 or 48 as both seem to be "right" and show no dithering on letterboxes either. I assume 48 might give me more shadow detail with 47 possibly crushing blacks a little?
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post #4113 of 4130 Old 01-15-2015, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Without anything else to go on, I'd probably go with the lower of the two settings, but I'm not familiar with the display to really comment on how exactly it might behave.
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post #4114 of 4130 Old 01-15-2015, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkanius View Post
My question here is: How can I, considering Full RGB on my PC side, calibrate correctly without clipping anything from the MP4 videos?
I don't think my AMD card allows any way to display video and the computer desktop at matching levels and avoid clipping levels from video. My AMD card seems to be able to scale the full-range desktop into a limited-range output, but in that scenario it still cuts off the extra video information. There are ways that it's possible to output the video range without clearly clipping levels by having different ranges for video and the computer desktop, but most people don't want to deal with different levels depending on what they're doing, so usually people just stick with the default expansion when watching video on a computer.

Here are some further comments about displaying video on a computer:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration
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post #4115 of 4130 Old 01-16-2015, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkanius View Post
My question here is: How can I, considering Full RGB on my PC side, calibrate correctly without clipping anything from the MP4 videos? I've tried everything but I always get clipped information. Even from Youtube videos with the same AVS HD 709 patterns. What am I doing wrong? Or is it supposed to clip?
MPC-HC + madvr should do the trick. Set Your graphics card to 0-255, configure madvr to output 16-235 and set Your TV also to limited (16-236).

Some graphic cards will output strict 16-235 if they reconize a TV, for this madvr has a levels tweaker to force the card to output 0-255.

When You set Your card to mirror (clone) can You configure Your both displays independent? Maybe You should use extended desktop to have an independent configuration enabled.

Last edited by DrFaxe; 01-16-2015 at 06:02 AM.
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post #4116 of 4130 Old 01-23-2015, 10:09 AM
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First, I'd like to thank the creators of this awesome disc as well as this community for being an invaluable educational resource! Thanks!


I have a couple quick questions- I did search for answers, but couldn't locate anything definitive.


1) There seems to be numerous "duplicated" patterns included- e.g. "20% grayscale window" shows up under CalMAN, ChromaPure, etc... Are these patterns all identical, or are there differences between them? If they are the same, are they just duplicated simply to better serve the specific calibration software packages in some way?


2) I understand the idea that "windows" should be used instead of "fields" for measuring plasma/CRT devices to avoid automatic "level limiters" kicking in, but is there any reason why "windows" shouldn't be used for other display technologies as well (e.g. LCD)? Why wouldn't a "best practice" be simply to always use windows vs. fields?



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post #4117 of 4130 Old 01-26-2015, 10:39 PM
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I know I probably haven't looked very good on this site but do you guys offer this for sale in blu-ray form to buy?
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post #4118 of 4130 Old 01-27-2015, 06:55 AM
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I'd bet if you bought the disc and a 6 pack, you could find a friend/neighbor/co-worker who could burn it for you
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I know I probably haven't looked very good on this site but do you guys offer this for sale in blu-ray form to buy?
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post #4119 of 4130 Old 01-27-2015, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rakstr View Post
I'd bet if you bought the disc and a 6 pack, you could find a friend/neighbor/co-worker who could burn it for you

I actually did burn it but nothing will work on my blu-ray player sadly. I'm gonna give it another go though since I have some extra dvd-r's left.
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post #4120 of 4130 Old 01-28-2015, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by meta22ica240 View Post
I actually did burn it but nothing will work on my blu-ray player sadly. I'm gonna give it another go though since I have some extra dvd-r's left.
We didn't have any interest in something like Blu-ray duplication (selling burned discs), and I didn't think there was enough of a market to try turning it into a commercial product with Blu-ray replication. There are certainly players that do not support DVD or Blu-ray writable media, but generally more of the newer players support writable media in comparison to the first generation Blu-ray players. I'd be curious to know which players today don't support either the AVCHD or HDMV from DVD media, yet I'm sure there are some examples.
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post #4121 of 4130 Old 01-28-2015, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bytor102 View Post
1) There seems to be numerous "duplicated" patterns included- e.g. "20% grayscale window" shows up under CalMAN, ChromaPure, etc... Are these patterns all identical, or are there differences between them? If they are the same, are they just duplicated simply to better serve the specific calibration software packages in some way?
Any pattern with an identical name uses the same encoded levels. Basically the only difference is the order of the patterns to support the preference used by the calibration software available at the time the disc was put together.

Quote:
2) I understand the idea that "windows" should be used instead of "fields" for measuring plasma/CRT devices to avoid automatic "level limiters" kicking in, but is there any reason why "windows" shouldn't be used for other display technologies as well (e.g. LCD)? Why wouldn't a "best practice" be simply to always use windows vs. fields?
There are a lot of possible variables when it comes to measuring a video pattern and trying to make sense of the measured information. One possible variable is that different display technologies, models, and settings don't all react similarly when displaying identical patterns. Since most people in similar discussions are interested in relative information, such as comparing Y measurements for something like gamma, I'm generally in favor of patterns similar to the APL measurements from this project, since similar patterns remove any change in APL or Average Relative Luminance during the measurement series. Generally the calibration industry uses patterns that vary APL and/or Average Relative Luminance during the measurement series, such as windows and fields. Since different displays or settings may not react similarly to changes in APL or Average Relative Luminance, personally I don't see how it's generally beneficial to include those variables in the series of measurement patterns. My personal opinion is that people should probably gather a lot of information to determine how their display operates when attempting to "calibrate", but generally people just want to base a decision around a single measurement run, regardless of how various variables might affect the resulting information.

I think there can be situations where fields may limit errors that would be present when using windows. On my prior Sony SXRD the variable backlight setting tended to produce rather unreliable relative Y measurements when using windows, and I believe relative Y from field measurements were generally more in line with most on-screen images. When the variable backlight setting was turned off then most any measurement pattern returned identical information. Personally I haven't looked at enough various LCDs to comment on how things like variable backlights might affect measurements when using the field or window patterns from this project, but I know my current Sony LCD has a non-defeatable variable backlight. I cannot say if either windows or fields provides any preference on my LCD, I just know that both patterns cause my TV to vary the backlight during the measurement series.

Last edited by alluringreality; 01-28-2015 at 01:49 PM.
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post #4122 of 4130 Old 01-28-2015, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
We didn't have any interest in something like Blu-ray duplication (selling burned discs), and I didn't think there was enough of a market to try turning it into a commercial product with Blu-ray replication. There are certainly players that do not support DVD or Blu-ray writable media, but generally more of the newer players support writable media in comparison to the first generation Blu-ray players. I'd be curious to know which players today don't support either the AVCHD or HDMV from DVD media, yet I'm sure there are some examples.

I actually tried 2 different Blu-ray players. One a Magnavox and the other a Philips. Thinking about getting a Panasonic DMP-BD81 I was checking out. Need an upgrade anyways. Both are over 5 years old.
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post #4123 of 4130 Old 02-13-2015, 04:11 PM
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Apologies if this seems like a dumb question, but a cursory Google search did not give me anything useful and this thread seems the best place to ask it.

I have a Panasonic HDTV with R/G/B-offset and -gain settings for white balancing. What would be the best method for going about adjusting them on the calibration? The video tutorial included on the DVD doesn't discuss that, only Brightness/Contract/Color/Hue/Sharpness.

How I've done it in the past is use the flashing color screen under Misc. Patterns and adjust first the gain and then the offset so that only the color bars above 235 are flashing, but I'm not sure if this is "correct."
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post #4124 of 4130 Old 02-13-2015, 04:17 PM
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As a follow-up, I should add that I am doing white balancing/color correction sighted and I don't have the interest (or budget, really) to purchase a color meter/calibration device.
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post #4125 of 4130 Old 02-14-2015, 09:51 AM
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Can anyone tell me what the stimulus percent is for the small and large APL patterns? Thanks.
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post #4126 of 4130 Old 02-16-2015, 05:55 PM
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Can anyone tell me what the stimulus percent is for the small and large APL patterns? Thanks.
Nobody?
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post #4127 of 4130 Old 02-18-2015, 12:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone tell me what the stimulus percent is for the small and large APL patterns? Thanks.
Here are terms that seem to follow general industry usage.

Average Picture Level (APL) simply refers to an average of the video information. For a quick average I was just using image editing software for an approximation.

Average Relative Luminance (ARL) is basically a gamma-adjusted average of the video information. The numbers here assume approximately a 2.2 gamma, and again the listed values are just based on a quick adjustment with image editing software.

Small APL Gray Pattern:
7% APL
4.7% ARL

Large APL Gray Pattern:
36% APL
24.7% ARL

APL numbers from:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

ARL numbers from:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

Last edited by alluringreality; 02-18-2015 at 12:22 PM.
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post #4128 of 4130 Old 02-18-2015, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarggg View Post
How I've done it in the past is use the flashing color screen under Misc. Patterns and adjust first the gain and then the offset so that only the color bars above 235 are flashing, but I'm not sure if this is "correct."
This is not how gain and offset controls are typically used. Usually the controls are used to come close to a specific shade of gray. Often when trying to do that the display will tend to clip the red, green and blue channels near black and white at different levels. If you don't plan to use a meter to target a specific shade of gray all you can really do is to try to estimate what you think would be a uniform shade of gray that just changes in light output, but unless a TV is way off I doubt if many people would be very good at it if they haven't used a meter before. I can't comment on how close a particular Panasonic TV might come to a calibrated gray without adjustment, but owners or reviews might be able to give worthwhile information on the subject of out of the box grayscale performance.
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post #4129 of 4130 Old 02-18-2015, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR84 View Post
Can anyone tell me what the stimulus percent is for the small and large APL patterns? Thanks.
Here are terms that seem to follow general industry usage.

Average Picture Level (APL) simply refers to an average of the video information. For a quick average I was just using image editing software for an approximation.

Average Relative Luminance (ARL) is basically a gamma-adjusted average of the video information. The numbers here assume approximately a 2.2 gamma, and again the listed values are just based on a quick adjustment with image editing software.

Small APL Gray Pattern:
7% APL
4.7% ARL

Large APL Gray Pattern:
36% APL
24.7% ARL

APL numbers from:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration

ARL numbers from:
AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray & MP4 Calibration
Thanks.
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post #4130 of 4130 Unread Today, 05:37 AM
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Thanks for your efforts guys. Just burned and gave this a whirl. Really fantastic for us hobbyists...
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